Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[thehook]

WOW! I have to say. If Lance ever decided to spill the beans. I mean really give a detailed description. Of what he did, how he did it, where he got it, who helped him do it. It would be some interesting read!

 

[D-Queued]

Will Lance settle?

One who (actually) knows him, says yes. Soon (w/in a week?).

Best I can do for you. I can speculate, comment, or whatever. But, I am going to go by their sense of things instead.

Dave.

 

[WinterRider]

One who (actually) knows him, says yes. Soon (w/in a week?).

Best I can do for you. I can speculate, comment, or whatever. But, I am going to go by their sense of things instead.

Dave.

Given the reputation damage that SCA suffered, I wonder how willingly they will accept clauses to not discuss the settlement.

Will they take the money and run, or is it more important to them to have it publicly known just how right their cause was?

 

[TexPat]

Given the reputation damage that SCA suffered, I wonder how willingly they will accept clauses to not discuss the settlement.

Will they take the money and run, or is it more important to them to have it publicly known just how right their cause was?

The latter would certainly be just, wouldn't it?

 

[Race Radio]

From the article:

Then he would leave with bags filled with the blood booster EPO, human growth hormone, blood thinners, amphetamines, cortisone, painkillers and testosterone, a particularly popular drug he’d hand to riders “like candy.”

By 1993, Armstrong was using all of those substances, as did many riders on the team, Hendershot said. He remembered Armstrong’s attitude as being, “This is the stuff I take, this is part of what I do,” and Armstrong joined the team’s program without hesitation because everyone else seemed to be doing it.



In addition we know that she has had apparently exclusive access to many hours of tape from the deceased Neil which according to the article implicate LA in doping earlier than LA has admitted. The details are not in the article, but my question to you RR was given she has these two sources, why is your first inclination to disbelieve her? Perhaps once the book is released the details will be flimsy and not support what is in the NYT article, but given everything we know I just can't see why she would have to make this stuff up if there were not supporting evidence.

As for the "malarky" to do with the bribe. I don't know what I believe. But I do know you've been having a go at Macur on this, and that your main evidence is that the two involved have denied it ever happened. But to be frank that is meaningless to me since if it did happen, there are plenty of reasons why they might deny. As for an "unnamed source", and whether it is credible, I've no idea what the truth is, but certainly do lend more credence to Juliet Macur than ANYONE who has had success in the field of pro cycling. I've no axe to grind, I like the Andreus and I do agree that Hincapie and LA are having a go at them, but that does not preclude the story about the bribe being true. Hopefully the details of this will be in the book as well.

I do ponder though, and I already stated this, if this story is coloring your reflection on Macur's latest excerpt from her book.

So, is it? Or is your unwillingness to beleive LA was on EPO in 93 coming from somewhere else? If so I'd like to know what your reasoning is as I've read a lot of great information from you over the past 6 years, but I can't personally recall anything that would make me doubt the veracity of these latest allegations.

You are searching for an ulterior motive where there is not one.I have made it clear over and over that Juliet is a very talented reporter.

There is nothing wrong with pointing out that both of the supposed participants deny the $50k offer ever took place, neither we contacted by Juliet for their version, and the idea that a lower level rider would roll up during a race and offer 50K is absurd. Would you prefer I do not share this information? Pointing this out is "Malarky"? Hardly

Again, Armstrong using EPO in 93 goes against much of what we know. There is no ulterior motive in pointing this out. As I wrote over and over it is certainly possible that Juliet has uncovered additional information that will support this claim, the result will be that Lance is lying again.

I will have a copy of the book tomorrow. Will let you know of JT is in there saying Lance used EPO in 93

 

[MarkvW]

The latter would certainly be just, wouldn't it?

Not just to your shareholders!

 

[WinterRider]

The latter would certainly be just, wouldn't it?

I hope they get their money, all of it, and I'm pretty sure they will. But I recall reading an interview a long time ago where they also discussed the reputational hit they got from trying not to pay Lance.

There was lost business, lost reputation, and I got the sense a desire for retribution on all these points. As such, I think there is a small chance that they also really want the decision to be public, in order to fully restore their reputation.

If there are nondisclosure clauses, then no one will know if LA had to repay everything or not, and that leaves open the question of just how much was SCA in the right all along. I suspect that SCA may see financial value in a public settlement, and may gamble on getting that.

 

[WinterRider]

You are searching for an ulterior motive where there is not one.I have made it clear over and over that Juliet is a very talented reporter.

There is nothing wrong with pointing out that both of the supposed participants deny the $50k offer ever took place, neither we contacted by Juliet for their version, and the idea that a lower level rider would roll up during a race and offer 50K is absurd. Would you prefer I do not share this information? Pointing this out is "Malarky"? Hardly

Again, Armstrong using EPO in 93 goes against much of what we know. There is no ulterior motive in pointing this out. As I wrote over and over it is certainly possible that Juliet has uncovered additional information that will support this claim, the result will be that Lance is lying again.

I will have a copy of the book tomorrow. Will let you know of JT is in there saying Lance used EPO in 93

OK, that's fine. No ulterior motive. I hesitated to suggest this knowing the rediculous amount of discussion there was on that point.

But I disagree with you that LA using EPO in 93 goes against what we know. It only goes against what LA himself has claimed. You seem confident that this must be a mistake, but I can't recall any publicly available information that would dispute it (other than LA's own statements).

You've said it goes against what we know, but what is that? I don't know anything that contradicts it, clearly you feel you do.

Can you give me a hint? I'll accept any specific account from anyone other than LA that contradicts it.

Certainly whomever (can't remember the poster, too lazy to go back and find the post) went through the affadavits from the RD couldn't find anything, and I've not seen any posts since that negate that finding.

 

[Netserk]

Certainly whomever (can't remember the poster, too lazy to go back and find the post) went through the affadavits from the RD couldn't find anything, and I've not seen any posts since that negate that finding.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=1408624#post1408624

 

[WinterRider]

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=1408624#post1408624

When I saw the link, I thought for sure it must have been your post, who else would bother

Thanks Netserk

 

[Race Radio]

OK, that's fine. No ulterior motive. I hesitated to suggest this knowing the rediculous amount of discussion there was on that point.

But I disagree with you that LA using EPO in 93 goes against what we know. It only goes against what LA himself has claimed. You seem confident that this must be a mistake, but I can't recall any publicly available information that would dispute it (other than LA's own statements).

You've said it goes against what we know, but what is that? I don't know anything that contradicts it, clearly you feel you do.

Can you give me a hint? I'll accept any specific account from anyone other than LA that contradicts it.

Certainly whomever (can't remember the poster, too lazy to go back and find the post) went through the affadavits from the RD couldn't find anything, and I've not seen any posts since that negate that finding.

Granville did a good job of it. Note the claim is that Lance, and other members of the team, were using EPO in 93.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1408624&postcount=6221

So Lance, George, and Frankie are all lying? Perhaps

Again, I am not saying it not possible. I am saying that the wording is such that it could have been misinterpreted.

It will be interesting if there is more in there about his early doping. Trips to Mexico, Chris Carmichael, etc

 

[WinterRider]

Granville did a good job of it. Note the claim is that Lance, and other members of the team, were using EPO in 93.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1408624&postcount=6221

So Lance, George, and Frankie are all lying? Perhaps

Again, I am not saying it not possible. I am saying that the wording is such that it could have been misinterpreted.

It will be interesting if there is more in there about his early doping. Trips to Mexico, Chris Carmichael, etc

Well as I've already pointed out, we don't know which other team member were using EPO. It certainly wasn't all of them, that again is from Hendershot's own words.

I had another thought though. Your point of view seems to stem from the 95 conversation where the team first decided to use EPO. In your view (correct me if I'm mistaken), no one was using EPO prior to that conversation. Hendershot is on record saying that LA was on EPO from 93, and other unnamed teammembers as well.

I suggest that it is possible that when that conversation occured, LA was on EPO, and it was not him who was having trouble keeping up, but rather his domestics. Perhaps LA was stuck at the back of the peloton because his teammates were incapable of riding up through the pack with water at key moments. In this scenario, it is logical that LA suddenly needs the whole team on EPO as opposed to just himself, or more likely himself plus a few others already on the sauce.

I even think it is possible that other team members besides Lance in that conversation were already on EPO. It is plausible they wouldn't admit to it until they knew their teammates were on board. Sure drug use was pretty open in the peloton, but again, according to Hendershot not everyone at Motorola was using PEDS, so a reasonable degree of caution when recruiting formerly clean/cleanish riders to use EPO is plausible. More plausible than Hendershot making up stuff for somebody else's book at any rate.

Or alternately, maybe Hendershot gets a portion of the profits from this book, in which case there may be incentive to lie.

 

[blackcat]

So there has been a lot of talk about the performance increase in Lance that catapulted him to the top, but it could just as easily have been a performance decrease by everyone else.

His GT potential didn't show until the Vuelta post Festina. And we know in 99 that half of the positive tests (for EPO) were Lance's. If we believe that he had political coverage to dope (due to missed cancer results), combined with everyone else dialing it back several notches, this could also in and of itself explain the performance boost.

I have made the point before too, but if you look at his climbing times, it is part (i) field going back, and (ii) him stepping it up (his own game this is). He gets right in the mix with a Riis Pantani Indurain and Ullrich at their best too.

 

[RownhamHill]

So has anyone here read the book? I just picked it up today on Google play, and it's pretty clear that she isn't claiming he started EPO before the Spring of 1995. The only hint of that is the quote we've been discussing, which is ambiguous at best, but against that she actually explicitly talks about Catlin researching the dangers in '88 and then "8 years later" Lance starting to take it, and also how he glowered at the '93 fleche podium sweep and how he was missing out on the good stuff. There's also a quote from hendetshot that Lance was as "clean as he ever was" for the 93 worlds. So there you go.

I'd post more but going to bed now!

 

[RownhamHill]

Actually one more thing, in the version I'm reading there is no mention of Frankie in the triple crown race bribe bit - just riders from both teams allegedly discussing the arrangement in a hotel, with Swart the only rider named.

So perhaps on reflection Macur/the publisher/the publishers laywers shared RR's concerns

 

[Race Radio]

The only hint of that is the quote we've been discussing, which is ambiguous at best

This was essentially my point, the quote was broad. He was likely referring to doping as a whole, even though he included EPO in the list

 

[Race Radio]

Actually one more thing, in the version I'm reading there is no mention of Frankie in the triple crown race bribe bit - just riders from both teams allegedly discussing the arrangement in a hotel, with Swart the only rider named.

So perhaps on reflection Macur/the publisher/the publishers laywers shared RR's concerns

This is likely the case. The preview that we saw, that was different was the NYT preview, was likely a draft. Juliet is a good reporter, it is not surprising that it was dropped out of the final version.

 

[mewmewmew13]

This was essentially my point, the quote was broad. He was likely referring to doping as a whole, even though he included EPO in the list

Considering he was explaining his 'cocktail' bombs it seems to me that they were just doping like lunatics with whatever…EPO may have been a small %

but it is ambiguous.

That comment from Hendershot ..Lance was as "clean as he ever was" for the 93 worlds."..well I know how I would read that..

 

[M Sport]

Good post, it highlights much of the reason why there is confusion when Lance's EPO use started. While the usual stalkers will cry "Bias" or "Hidden Agenda" the simple fact is there is not much to support EPO use in 93. Certainly possible. Highly likely they were using all kinds of other stuff.

Not to take the thread on too much of a tangent but I wonder if Phil Anderson, Armstrong's mentor, is a bit concern about the book? If I were him I would be

I just downloaded a copy and done a search for 'Anderson' doesn't seem to be a match for Phil, only Mike. I'm not going to be able to read my copy until the weekend but happy to search for any text that may interest other posters.

 

[Race Radio]

I just downloaded a copy and done a search for 'Anderson' doesn't seem to be a match for Phil, only Mike. I'm not going to be able to read my copy until the weekend but happy to search for any text that may interest other posters.

Bauer, Hampsten, and Phinney. All friends of Hendershot

 

[TShame]

New book, but this article excerpt is worth reading

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/sports/cycling/end-of-the-ride-for-lance-armstrong.html

Tells the story of Lance leaving his dream home and also his inspiration and his downfall through the eyes of his massage guy (I can't spell french words, sorry)

Whether you feel Lance deserves it or just revel in his less than billionaire 'slum' status; there is something in this article for everyone. I liked this more than any other book or article.

He may even earn a little pity, just as that little Italian climber that the Giro wants to honor (the Pirate, who died of drug abuse). I hated him as a cyclist, but pity him how he died. I loved Lance as a cyclist despite his arrogance and morals. He deserved to be punished, but not unfairly.

Still, he doesn't get it. He thinks Trek should be only thankful for what he did for the company. Oh well, he could always wind up with a Kardashian in the future or some other reality show.

You sure can't forget the man. He will always be Tour history and its biggest legend.

 

[blackcat]

From the article:

Then he would leave with bags filled with the blood booster EPO, human growth hormone, blood thinners, amphetamines, cortisone, painkillers and testosterone, a particularly popular drug he’d hand to riders “like candy.”4

aka the sneaky fox

before there was motoman, there was the sneaky fox

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyqyVKSJiOM

 

[blackcat]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/sports/cycling/end-of-the-ride-for-lance-armstrong.html

Tells the story of Lance leaving his dream home and also his inspiration and his downfall through the eyes of his massage guy (I can't spell french words, sorry)

we just call it swanny.

the word is soigneur. a masseur. But the Anglophoned phonetics is swan'nie.

atleast now I have the anecdote courtesy of Macur about Armstrong's patron in Austin.

I thought it was a triathlon dude/lbs owner, who then helped him dope. And crashing one of his mitsubishis or nissans. This was not too far from the truth, but nice to have it on record by a quality scribe like Macur, not the inscrutable extemporising with random interpolations of Yellow Rose anecdotes.

yellow rose ftw /meta parody

YR>Spearmint Rhino

 

[blackcat]

You sure can't forget the man. He will always be Tour history and its biggest legend.

Eddy Merckx opinion counts for alot. And so does Jan.

I dont hold the doping against him, I dont even hold the pseudo corruption getting the UCI to work their inimitable magic on Mayo et al.

But he could have gone easy on those like the Andreu's, who never saw life thru his amoral lens.

He was a champion, and his will was peerless, for that, much respect.

JV on the other hand, he's a chump

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

Never one to forego kicking a man while he's down, this is a screen shot from this week's episode of the UK comedy/car show, Top Gear:

Priceless.