Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

Page 314 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
A post disappeared? :rolleyes:

$23m & $17m.

Legal Exuberance Skilling's defense is shaping up to be one of the costliest in history. Before his indictment Skilling had put $23 million into a trust to pay his legal bills. His lawyers also received $17 million from the insurance companies that provided Enron with directors' and officers' liability coverage.

Petrocelli says his Los Angeles-based firm, O'Melveny & Myers, is owed $30 million more, bringing the grand total to $70 million, an amount that leaves other attorneys astonished. "It's magnificent, it's shocking, I'm jealous," says attorney Philip Hilder, who represents Enron whistle-blower Sherron Watkins.

The attorney justifies the expenses saying it took a team of 12 lawyers, 5 paralegals, and a number of temporary staffers to try Skilling's criminal case. Many of them had to be housed in Houston for months. Petrocelli bills his own services at nearly $800 an hour. Some expert witnesses and consultants got fees as high as $600 an hour.

http://www.businessweek.com/stories...siness-news-stock-market-and-financial-advice

According to the Bureau of Prisons, Skilling is incarcerated in FPC Montgomery, with an original release date of February 21, 2028.[37] On May 8, 2013, federal prosecutors announced a sentencing deal that cuts 10 years off of Skilling's sentence and makes him eligible for release in 2017. The deal was approved by U.S. District Court Judge Sim Lake on June 21, 2013.[38][39]

2017.
 
Aug 13, 2009
12,854
1
0
thehog said:
Jeff Scilling just before he was carted away in handcuffs wired $200m to his lawyers on retainer. Since that time he claims he's bankrupt.

So which is it? Did he give his lawyers $200 million just before going to prison or did the government step in, sell all his remaining assets, and give most of it to his victims?

No need to respond, you already know the answer
 
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
So in the written Acceptance statement (of course) his lawyers advised him. A deposition is something like Q/A but without a judge, and your attorney can´t help you? And the next level is the courtroom Q/A, right?
IOW, as soon as making a deposition he would talk himself into big trouble.
Now that I have a clearer pic, I can give my two cents:
After having delayed the inevitable, he´ll hold up his right hand and declare bankruptcy, millions laying saved under an obscure limited name in Bermudas, Landis will go out empty, as the government will. A pyrrhic victory for the feds, unless they can bring him to jail...

Thx again for the enlightment.

Bankruptcy won't help Lance because his debts are fraud debts. His creditors may very well eventually put him into involuntary bankruptcy--and you can definitely go to jail for bankruptcy fraud.
 
Jun 15, 2009
8,529
1
0
?? :confused: ??

Is my english too bad, or did I miss something?
We discussed the upcoming legal facts for LA, and then went a little about how things might unfold. Actually today I learned something.
If that´s off topic, why not deleting the whole Sky thread? I mean there is 99% non content, but attacks, obscure theories, gay jokes, and what else...
 
Jun 15, 2009
8,529
1
0
MarkvW said:
Bankruptcy won't help Lance because his debts are fraud debts. His creditors may very well eventually put him into involuntary bankruptcy--and you can definitely go to jail for bankruptcy fraud.

Ok, so he has the debts forever. Now he´d have to do something he never did: Make true friendship/love, give 100% trust to his wife/girlfriend and transfer all his money to her. Since he can´t, he´s doomed. What a fall. I thought Pantanis, Ullrichs and Rasmussens were the worst. But this one... wow. Major crash.
 
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Ok, so he has the debts forever. Now he´d have to do something he never did: Make true friendship/love, give 100% trust to his wife/girlfriend and transfer all his money to her. Since he can´t, he´s doomed. What a fall. I thought Pantanis, Ullrichs and Rasmussens were the worst. But this one... wow. Major crash.

That seems like the most probable theory right now.
 
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
But isn´t it already perjury since he admitted doping in a written statement to a court (in November AFAIR)? :confused:

I have not read LA's affidavit, but if he admitted to doping in that affidavit it is evidence if not proof he perjured himself in Nov. 2005 and Jan. 2006. But it appears the Statute of Limitations in Texas is 3 years.

That affidavit was prepared carefully by LA's lawyers. But in the SCA case their lawyer Tillotson will be able to "resurrect" LA's November 2005 and January 2006 lies under oath with questions similar to the following,

"You agree you testified under oath in November 2005 and January 2006 that you had never taken performance enhancing drugs?"

"You agree with me today that was untrue?"

"You agree that your testimony under oath in Nov.2005 and Jan. 2006 was a calculated and deliberate decision by you to deceive the arbitration panel as to a fundamental and material issue in the case, that you were the legitimate winner of the 2002,2003 and 2004 TDF?"

"You agree today that your testimony in November 2005 and 2006 was perjury?" (May not have to answer this because it is a conclusion of law)

Something like that!
 
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Ok, so he has the debts forever. Now he´d have to do something he never did: Make true friendship/love, give 100% trust to his wife/girlfriend and transfer all his money to her. Since he can´t, he´s doomed. What a fall. I thought Pantanis, Ullrichs and Rasmussens were the worst. But this one... wow. Major crash.

Nobody ever wants to give up money for no reason until they are ordered to. Why would you?

I like this summary. Probably all of it applies to both sides.

Assume that both you and your client really want to settle. Really wanting to settle does not mean wanting to settle in the abstract or wanting to settle but only if you get complete capitulation from as well as public humiliation of the other side. It means that you and your client are prepared to make the necessary compromises to reach a resolution that both sides can accept.

In analyzing why settlement negotiations are not going well, first examine whether you are in fact the difficult lawyer. Your perception of the other side as being difficult and needing to be handled may be clouded by your own bias, ego, overinvolvement in the case, belief in the client's cause, or loss of perspective. ("We have seen the enemy and the enemy is us.")

Assuming you can honestly say that you are not the one preventing a settlement, the next step is to try to analyze the problem. It is helpful to examine why negotiations are not making progress. There are all kinds of reasons why settlement negotiations go badly:

Neither opposing party nor opposing counsel really wants to settle. Remember, really wanting to settle means being prepared to make the necessary compromises to get there, not merely being prepared to accept the other side's surrender. One clue: opposing counsel makes outrageous demands--demands so outrageous that you might as well take your best shot at trial because you could not possibly do any worse than what they are offering. Another clue: opposing counsel refuses to take your phone calls or respond to your written offers.

Perhaps opposing counsel says she wants to settle, but repeatedly files lengthy, frivolous motions. Or, the other side will not focus on the issues, but instead appears to be obsessed with your client's morally reprehensible behavior--your client walked out on her husband, had a baby with her paramour, took the paramour to Barbados on the husband's American Express Card, and is therefore morally bankrupt and has no right to half the equity in the marital home. This kind of attitude is a hint that these people are not quite ready to deal with the real issues and maybe never will be.

Opposing counsel wants to settle but the opposing party does not. Some people simply do not know how to compromise. It is not in their nature. Giving up something seems like surrender. Often such people tend to see everything in moral absolutes--"He done me wrong, so he has to pay." Anything the other side gets is seen as a reward for wrongdoing. Often such people are genuinely unable to see any other point of view but their own. Settling a case with someone like that on the other side is extremely difficult, and sometimes impossible.

Some people have a need--albeit misguided--to have their drama played out in a courtroom. They believe what they see on TV. They think they are not only going to win but also will be vindicated publicly, given a verbal pat on the back by the judge, and told they are the victim of a great wrong perpetrated by the other party. People like this cannot settle. And when they do give into pressure to settle, they invariably try to renege before the ink is dry on the deal.

In other words, sometimes it may seem as though you are dealing with a difficult lawyer when in reality the opposing counsel has a very difficult client he or she cannot control.

The opposing party may want to settle but opposing counsel does not. Again, there are clues that this may be the case. For example, your written offers are apparently not being communicated to the other party, you cannot get any feedback from opposing counsel about your offer, or opposing counsel won't return your phone calls. Perhaps opposing counsel makes totally absurd and outrageous demands. The clues can sometimes be ambiguous; they may be the result of the party's unreasonableness, the other lawyer's unreasonableness, or both.

Opposing party and counsel want to settle but there is something standing in the way. It may be that opposing counsel is unskilled in the techniques of good negotiation. Perhaps he does not understand that most of the time you need a win-win result. Or, she will not put her cards on the table and tell you what she wants; for example, she says her client wants alimony but will not say how much or for how long.

A variation on this theme is the opposing counsel who attempts to get you to bid against yourself--"Your offer stinks, try again"--or will not commit her client to a firm counteroffer--"We can't accept your offer to settle for 'X,' but I am prepared to recommend to my client that she settle for '2X.' Will your client accept '2X'?" This is not an offer. It is a request for another offer from your side. It's a slightly more polite way of saying, "Your offer stinks; try again."

It may be that opposing counsel is ignorant of important legal issues that must be understood to reach a resolution--for example, there are tax consequences flowing from the deal and the opposing lawyer does not understand them. Sometimes opposing counsel is misinformed about the facts or has not done his homework. He may not have gotten out a calculator or used a spreadsheet to actually calculate the result mathematically and may not understand what their offer really means to your client. He may not even understand what it means to his own client. Therefore, he may not understand that the deal they are proposing cannot possibly work.

There is also the opposing counsel who is either lazy or overloaded and therefore waits until the last possible moment to get serious about talking settlement. Quite often this person is also ignorant of relevant law or essential facts, thus compounding your problem.

http://www.americanbar.org/newslett..._home/gp_solo_magazine_index/spr96ravdin.html
 
RobbieCanuck said:
I have not read LA's affidavit, but if he admitted to doping in that affidavit it is evidence if not proof he perjured himself in Nov. 2005 and Jan. 2006. But it appears the Statute of Limitations in Texas is 3 years.

That affidavit was prepared carefully by LA's lawyers. But in the SCA case their lawyer Tillotson will be able to "resurrect" LA's November 2005 and January 2006 lies under oath with questions similar to the following,

"You agree you testified under oath in November 2005 and January 2006 that you had never taken performance enhancing drugs?"

"You agree with me today that was untrue?"

"You agree that your testimony under oath in Nov.2005 and Jan. 2006 was a calculated and deliberate decision by you to deceive the arbitration panel as to a fundamental and material issue in the case, that you were the legitimate winner of the 2002,2003 and 2004 TDF?"

"You agree today that your testimony in November 2005 and 2006 was perjury?" (May not have to answer this because it is a conclusion of law)

Something like that!

You propose a series of questions. If Lance answers all those questions truthfully he has not committed a perjurious act.
 
Jun 15, 2009
8,529
1
0
RobbieCanuck said:
I have not read LA's affidavit, but if he admitted to doping in that affidavit it is evidence if not proof he perjured himself in Nov. 2005 and Jan. 2006. But it appears the Statute of Limitations in Texas is 3 years.

In the linked USAtoday article they wrote the written statement (affidavit?) vs Acceptance was "under oath". He adimitted to doping and named names. Thus he did already open himself up for perjury.
SOL: I don´t know US law, but common sense tells me the SOL halted from the moment he lied to the judge in the SCA case until his written statement in the Acceptance case.
I mean if the SOL would not be interrupted, everybody could do a crime, hide or lie for 3 years, and then tells "hahah I was lying to your court, I indeed did the crime, but there is nothing you can do about it anymore because of the SOL."

thehog said:
Nobody ever wants to give up money for no reason until they are ordered to. Why would you?

I like this summary. Probably all of it applies to both sides.

http://www.americanbar.org/newslett..._home/gp_solo_magazine_index/spr96ravdin.html

Yeah, certainly LA is the one you underlined. He needs the drama to tell he was the victim. The reason he cancelled the deposition on the last day. He´ll lose big time, and his certainly smart lawyers know it.
 
MarkvW said:
Bankruptcy won't help Lance because his debts are fraud debts. His creditors may very well eventually put him into involuntary bankruptcy--and you can definitely go to jail for bankruptcy fraud.

But, every State has different rules about what money is available for a judgement.

Buried in this thread is a discussion about how this works and it amounts to when it comes time for Armstrong to pay, he claims, on paper, according to Texas regulation, he is "broke" and pays a tiny portion of the topline number.
 
DirtyWorks said:
But, every State has different rules about what money is available for a judgement.

Buried in this thread is a discussion about how this works and it amounts to when it comes time for Armstrong to pay, he claims, on paper, according to Texas regulation, he is "broke" and pays a tiny portion of the topline number.

Problem is, we don't know how much money he really has.
 
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
In the linked USAtoday article they wrote the written statement (affidavit?) vs Acceptance was "under oath". He adimitted to doping and named names. Thus he did already open himself up for perjury.
SOL: I don´t know US law, but common sense tells me the SOL halted from the moment he lied to the judge in the SCA case until his written statement in the Acceptance case.
I mean if the SOL would not be interrupted, everybody could do a crime, hide or lie for 3 years, and then tells "hahah I was lying to your court, I indeed did the crime, but there is nothing you can do about it anymore because of the SOL."



Yeah, certainly LA is the one you underlined. He needs the drama to tell he was the victim. The reason he cancelled the deposition on the last day. He´ll lose big time, and his certainly smart lawyers know it.

Yes. But there was also settlement & not a judgement based on testimony per se. That's going to be a bummer to untie. Forcing him to be deposed will probably avoid a judge/panel deciding on that issue.

He can still appeal post panel decision. The courts want him to start at the bottom and work his way up. So perhaps this could go on.

But I think he probably needs to cut his loses at somepoint and work out a compromise. Although sounds like SCA are not into compromises. Courts don't really like that. They want to see you trying to resolve the issue no matter who's wrong and who's right.
 
MarkvW said:
You propose a series of questions. If Lance answers all those questions truthfully he has not committed a perjurious act.

True but it re-affirms under oath his perjury. He first perjures himself on Nov. 30, 2005 and then again on Jan. 10th (I think) 2006. There has been no acknowledgement of the perjury under oath since then. So the questions are

Q. On Nov. 30, 2005 while under oath were you asked this question "You have never taken any performance enhancing drug in connection with your cycling career?"

A. Yes

Q. On Nov.30, 2005 did you answer that question under oath, "Correct"

A. Yes

Q. And that answer was a lie?

A. Yes

Q. And you admit today the answer to that question was a lie?

A. Yes

Q. And you admit today that when you gave that answer in Nov. 2005 it was a deliberate and calculated answer under oath, as you are today, to mislead the Arbitration Panel about an issue material and fundamental to the case?

A. Yes

That resurrects the perjury. Now whether or not in Texas law that is enough to cause the SOL to be waived I do not know. The Texas statute seems silent. Many other jurisdictions do not have SOL on perjury, because it goes to the very heart of the system.
 
RobbieCanuck said:
True but it re-affirms under oath his perjury. He first perjures himself on Nov. 30, 2005 and then again on Jan. 10th (I think) 2006. There has been no acknowledgement of the perjury under oath since then. So the questions are

Q. On Nov. 30, 2005 while under oath were you asked this question "You have never taken any performance enhancing drug in connection with your cycling career?"

A. Yes

Q. On Nov.30, 2005 did you answer that question under oath, "Correct"

A. Yes

Q. And that answer was a lie?

A. Yes

Q. And you admit today the answer to that question was a lie?

A. Yes

Q. And you admit today that when you gave that answer in Nov. 2005 it was a deliberate and calculated answer under oath, as you are today, to mislead the Arbitration Panel about an issue material and fundamental to the case?

A. Yes

That resurrects the perjury. Now whether or not in Texas law that is enough to cause the SOL to be waived I do not know. The Texas statute seems silent. Many other jurisdictions do not have SOL on perjury, because it goes to the very heart of the system.

I like your questions. And, I would love to imagine it unfolding this way.

Based upon precedent, though, I would expect a lot more answers to be like this:

A: I don't remember exactly.

A: Do you mean Betsy?

A: Which answer?

A: Where did you see that?

<Herman interjects>: You don't have to answer that.

A: Uh.

A: If I said I had never taken performance enhancing drugs, then how could have taken them?

A: Who is Ferrari?

A: Can I ask you a question?

A: I don't see how that is relevant. It doesn't matter what I said. There is no proof. I never tested positive.

A: It's my money.

Dave.
 
RobbieCanuck said:
True but it re-affirms under oath his perjury. He first perjures himself on Nov. 30, 2005 and then again on Jan. 10th (I think) 2006. There has been no acknowledgement of the perjury under oath since then. So the questions are

Q. On Nov. 30, 2005 while under oath were you asked this question "You have never taken any performance enhancing drug in connection with your cycling career?"

A. Yes

Q. On Nov.30, 2005 did you answer that question under oath, "Correct"

A. Yes

Q. And that answer was a lie?

A. Yes

Q. And you admit today the answer to that question was a lie?

A. Yes

Q. And you admit today that when you gave that answer in Nov. 2005 it was a deliberate and calculated answer under oath, as you are today, to mislead the Arbitration Panel about an issue material and fundamental to the case?

A. Yes

That resurrects the perjury. Now whether or not in Texas law that is enough to cause the SOL to be waived I do not know. The Texas statute seems silent. Many other jurisdictions do not have SOL on perjury, because it goes to the very heart of the system.

Texas' SOL is 3 years. Texas C.C.P
12.01 (7).

Texas has not adopted a "perjury resurrection" doctrine. I could find no reference to such a doctrine in any state in the USA. A prosecutor needs a LIE within the limitation period.

If I lied under oath forty years ago on a driver's license application, and I acknowledged that lie under oath, yesterday, then the prosecutor is not able to prosecute me for perjury for that ancient lie. The operative principle is repose.
 
MarkvW said:
Texas' SOL is 3 years. Texas C.C.P
12.01 (7).

Texas has not adopted a "perjury resurrection" doctrine. I could find no reference to such a doctrine in any state in the USA. A prosecutor needs a LIE within the limitation period.

If I lied under oath forty years ago on a driver's license application, and I acknowledged that lie under oath, yesterday, then the prosecutor is not able to prosecute me for perjury for that ancient lie. The operative principle is repose.

Weird! In Canada there is no SOL re perjury or giving contradictory evidence from one legal proceeding, in another - both punishable up to 14 years. I would have thought in the USA the oath meant more than to have a 3 yr SOL. It invites lying. Thanks.
 
RobbieCanuck said:
True but it re-affirms under oath his perjury. He first perjures himself on Nov. 30, 2005 and then again on Jan. 10th (I think) 2006. There has been no acknowledgement of the perjury under oath since then. So the questions are

Q. On Nov. 30, 2005 while under oath were you asked this question "You have never taken any performance enhancing drug in connection with your cycling career?"

A. Yes
....

Q. And you admit today that when you gave that answer in Nov. 2005 it was a deliberate and calculated answer under oath, as you are today, to mislead the Arbitration Panel about an issue material and fundamental to the case?

A. Yes

That resurrects the perjury. Now whether or not in Texas law that is enough to cause the SOL to be waived I do not know. The Texas statute seems silent. Many other jurisdictions do not have SOL on perjury, because it goes to the very heart of the system.

If I understand correctly, the doping wasn't actually considered material to the SCA arbitration because there was no anti-doping clause in the contract. The material issue was whether or not Armstrong was considered the official winner of the TDF. Where SCA now has a case is that Armstrong has been stripped of the TDF wins and therefore wouldn't qualify for the bonus. The doping lead to the losing of the wins, but is only indirectly the reason SCA can now hope to recover their payment.
 
frenchfry said:
If I understand correctly, the doping wasn't actually considered material to the SCA arbitration because there was no anti-doping clause in the contract. The material issue was whether or not Armstrong was considered the official winner of the TDF. Where SCA now has a case is that Armstrong has been stripped of the TDF wins and therefore wouldn't qualify for the bonus. The doping lead to the losing of the wins, but is only indirectly the reason SCA can now hope to recover their payment.

Yes and No. Yes the arbitration decision in 2006 was based on the fact SCA could not prove he was not the official winner because they could not prove he doped.

No, in that it is the doping that lead to the stripping of the titles that led to him no longer being the official winner of the 2002, 2003 and 2004 TDF. So it is not an indirect case but a case based directly on the doping and the lies.