Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[Granville57]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/10/news/department-justice-strikes-back-armstrong-case_349985

“The False Claims Act is much more ‘pro-Government’ than a traditional contract action would be vis-à-vis a private plaintiff. In other words, the defenses that Armstrong has raised in his answer could be relevant in a breach of contract action, but may not be relevant in a False Claims Act case,” noted Mark Stichel, a Baltimore-based attorney who has litigated civil cases in state and federal courts throughout the U.S., in an an email to VeloNews. “The Government is trying to narrow the case not only because it wants to limit Armstrong’s ultimate ability to defend himself at trial, but to limit the discovery he is seeking. Also, both sides are trying to win the PR war.”

The back and forth between the DOJ and Armstrong attorneys has been exhaustive, and perhaps indicates what’s still to come. “The legal papers that both sides have submitted on this motion and on other motions in the case are well-written and well-researched,” Stichel wrote. “The papers on their face show that both the government and Armstrong are committing substantial resources to the case.”

The power now rests with the judge in the case, United States District Court judge Christopher R.Cooper, who will decide what is admissible and what is not.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

How can the outrage machine get mad and protest about that tab pic? They all got banninated!

 

[Race Radio]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/10/news/department-justice-strikes-back-armstrong-case_349985

Good review of the document.

defendants’ claim that no damages were suffered by the United States cannot … form the basis for an affirmative defense to liability in this case,”

This is what I have been saying for several months. Despite what the outrage machine says there is plenty of precedence on this point. Damages are based on how much USPS WOULD have paid had they known Armstrong was doping. The answer is simple, Zero.

Armstrong's lawyers must know this...... yet they continue to use tactics designed for the newsroom, not the courtroom.

 

[Race Radio]

Armstrong Qui Tam case: Landis and US Government granted permission to seek documents from UCI
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/10/a...ranted-permission-to-seek-documents-from-uci/

 

[eleven]

Good review of the document.



This is what I have been saying for several months. Despite what the outrage machine says there is plenty of precedence on this point. Damages are based on how much USPS WOULD have paid had they known Armstrong was doping. The answer is simple, Zero.

Armstrong's lawyers must know this...... yet they continue to use tactics designed for the newsroom, not the courtroom.

I believe - as we addressed earlier in this thread - you provided evidence that the standard is what USPS should have paid, not what they would have paid. And 'should' have paid could be construed to include a net benefit calculation. From your earlier link:

"the government calculates the base level of damages by subtracting what it should have paid from what it actually paid." (emphasis mine)

Armstrong's lawyers must know this. They might be enriching themselves, but they are not doing it on complete ignorance of the law. Perhaps only partial.

 

[D-Queued]

Armstrong Qui Tam case: Landis and US Government granted permission to seek documents from UCI
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/10/a...ranted-permission-to-seek-documents-from-uci/

Cool!

Fingers are crossed that they find something.

Dave.

 

[mewmewmew13]

was a while back - from memory the Lim stuff was all one-sided and iirc some of it wasn't checked too well (or countered by others (including Floyd) til after the book was out).
am pretty sure you're right about Floyd though, I don't think he spoke to Juliet at all on it. I remember something about not returning emails...

stuffed if i'm going to go back through this thread to find it all, but there was quite a discussion on it. Thinking back, I read the book in April (picked it up at the airport), and that was after all the Lim 'discussion' here and in the specific thread for the book... much water under the bridge since then!
I didn't think it was too bad at all, and I certainly didn't expect her to get everything right - pretty murky ocean for her to fish out all the facts from... she did a better job than Ms Jenkins though

exactly..well said Arch

 

[mewmewmew13]

Armstrong Qui Tam case: Landis and US Government granted permission to seek documents from UCI
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/10/a...ranted-permission-to-seek-documents-from-uci/

Finally!
popcorn...

 

[blackcat]

Good review of the document.



This is what I have been saying for several months. Despite what the outrage machine says there is plenty of precedence on this point. Damages are based on how much USPS WOULD have paid had they known Armstrong was doping. The answer is simple, Zero.

Armstrong's lawyers must know this...... yet they continue to use tactics designed for the newsroom, not the courtroom.

like i have said to D-Q. USPostalService were not buying impressions for a retail business. They were buying a prestige pun vehicle, for the intangible factors. Less so for the market share versus UPS or of DHL.

They wanted the prestige, and then they payed a premium after the apotheosis of cancer jesus in july.

this was supposed to be a prestige annuity. To keep on paying out on presitige intangibles, everytime someone read annals of cycling and the Tour de France for the next century.

In effect, this prestige annuity has been inverted. And now prestige is scandal. Will Armstrong and his UBS accounts in Zurich now pay compensation on the scandal annuity for USPS over the next 100 years? (ok, that was a tautology on annuity, then adding the time, when there should be a real dollar price on this annuity value, or inverted liability, now.

 

[DirtyWorks]

You would think that he could connect those dots, but apparently not. I really can't understand why he just doesn't write a few cheques and move on. This crap could go on forever with appeals delays etc....

Because that joker's entire life is constructed on exceptionalism. The rules didn't apply until USADA. That's a long, long, time. Or, for the faithful, he's a champion.

The PR strategy might work. He's another victim of big government, or whatever BS he chooses. There's an audience and money to be made on the fans he views with such contempt.

He just wants a way back into sport so he can be 'a champion' again. At all cost. Totally unaffected by everything since the USADA sanction. My guess is he's fighting like this and staying silent on the UCI and USAC because the UCI has promised him a commuted ban with the CIRC.

I'm looking forward to many things being 'lost' at the UCI. You know, failed backups and whatnot. Hein not working the important email through make_money_get_paid@uci.ch They want emails from who? Hein who? That guy hasn't worked at the UCI for years. Sorry, no trail!

Lets' hope Saugy's lab gets some requests. There are probably dozens of skeletons in that closet.

 

[blackcat]

I believe - as we addressed earlier in this thread - you provided evidence that the standard is what USPS should have paid, not what they would have paid. And 'should' have paid could be construed to include a net benefit calculation. From your earlier link:

"the government calculates the base level of damages by subtracting what it should have paid from what it actually paid." (emphasis mine)

Armstrong's lawyers must know this. They might be enriching themselves, but they are not doing it on complete ignorance of the law. Perhaps only partial.

but aren't you referring to "should" wrt competing in an open market for parcel delivery against a DHL and UPS.

I assume the sponsorship vehicle was less about "impressions" and free-market competition in parcel movement industry, and more about a prestige status marqu/imprimatur. And paying the prestige premium. Unlike other vehicles in procycling, that just need a writlarge exposure, the Banks, the Telcos, this American entry was different when Armstrong started winning July.

ergo: the never wanted the buy the writ large impressions, but they wanted the presitge, the Armstrong, the Cancer Jesus, the Presige. intentionally capitalised. Their "business" was less based on normal business for profit imperative and buying a cycling operation from tailwind, and more the prestige and exposure for the American domestic audience.

It moved from parking lot crits and Tony Cruz in AZ and Socal, and some tenuous tangental r/ship to posties on pushies, to this massive prestige vehivle that got cut-thru with Leno, Letternan, and Katie Couric on Today. Completely different ballpark!

 

[blackcat]

You would think that he could connect those dots, but apparently not. I really can't understand why he just doesn't write a few cheques and move on. This crap could go on forever with appeals delays etc....

a cursory reading of Armstrong is the man is driven by conflict and the bellicose is the raison d'etre and this is the real, the authentic athlete more than the bike.

bike as cypher. sport as platform.

 

[Fausto's Schnauzer]

Finally!
popcorn...

 

[D-Queued]

Good review of the document.

defendants’ claim that no damages were suffered by the United States cannot … form the basis for an affirmative defense to liability in this case,”

This is what I have been saying for several months. Despite what the outrage machine says there is plenty of precedence on this point. Damages are based on how much USPS WOULD have paid had they known Armstrong was doping. The answer is simple, Zero.

Armstrong's lawyers must know this...... yet they continue to use tactics designed for the newsroom, not the courtroom.

This point can never be made strongly enough.

A long, long time ago, I pointed out the USPS policy(ies) on substance abuse in the workplace.

There are few other organizations in the world that have had as aggressive a stance on substance abuse.

USPS Handbook

518 Drug Screening

After an applicant passes the required qualifying examination, human resources personnel administers drug screen urinalysis. Only applicants determined to be drug–free as a result of the urinalysis are eligible for selection consideration. A drug screen test that results in a qualified status is good for 90 days from the date the specimen is collected.

That USPS would enter a contract with a promotional entity, where that promotional entity was knowingly abusing substances directly to achieve the promotional benefit is so absurd that it is beyond laughable.

USPS could not and would not enter such a contract if they definitively knew that there was doping. The personal career risk is likely immeasurable for any USPS executive to pursue such a course.

Dave.

 

[TexPat]

a cursory reading of Armstrong is the man is driven by conflict and the bellicose is the raison d'etre and this is the real, the authentic athlete more than the bike.

bike as cypher. sport as platform.

That is one of the best and most inspired posts I've seen ever. My hat is off to you.
And, it's deadly accurate.


Kind regards,
MixMaster Mike

 

[blackcat]

That is one of the best and most inspired posts I've seen ever. My hat is off to you.
And, it's deadly accurate.


Kind regards,
MixMaster Mike

Tex, chapeau to you also, and as long it is a black hat, we cool

caveat the phonetic black hat, spoken with a pidgin lilt

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

So if he gets a reduction, who would want anything to do with him?

 

[Benotti69]

Because that joker's entire life is constructed on exceptionalism. The rules didn't apply until USADA. That's a long, long, time. Or, for the faithful, he's a champion.

The PR strategy might work. He's another victim of big government, or whatever BS he chooses. There's an audience and money to be made on the fans he views with such contempt.

He just wants a way back into sport so he can be 'a champion' again. At all cost. Totally unaffected by everything since the USADA sanction. My guess is he's fighting like this and staying silent on the UCI and USAC because the UCI has promised him a commuted ban with the CIRC.

I'm looking forward to many things being 'lost' at the UCI. You know, failed backups and whatnot. Hein not working the important email through make_money_get_paid@uci.ch They want emails from who? Hein who? That guy hasn't worked at the UCI for years. Sorry, no trail!

Lets' hope Saugy's lab gets some requests. There are probably dozens of skeletons in that closet.

The IOC might not let the UCI give a commuted ban, Armstrong is damaged goods that cannot be repaired (given his personality) so he is making a big gamble to hope for an outcome that will open a door back to competitive sport. His Oprah confession to millions looks like a stupid mistake now!

 

[MacRoadie]

...apotheosis of cancer jesus...

Quite possibly the best phrase ever to appear on the interwebs.

Well played kind sir.

 

[DirtyWorks]

So if he gets a reduction, who would want anything to do with him?

Crossfit. Those guys are cleans. Really, any sport with a healthy Master's participation will do. But, probably Triathlon given there's plenty of money and Masters doing it. His buddies are running UCI sanctioned gran fondos, so a little appearance money plus reinforcement from the faithful he's 'a champion' would be pretty good in his world.

It's true the IOC might not allow the ban to be reduced. But, money talks at the IOC so, for me, it's not clear what the response would be. IMO, we don't know something behind the dragging it out strategy. Maybe the UCI working a deal, maybe hiding the money, maybe pure exceptionalism on Wonderboy's part. Lots of maybes.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

Crossfit. Those guys are cleans. Really, any sport with a healthy Master's participation will do. But, probably Triathlon given there's plenty of money and Masters doing it. His buddies are running UCI sanctioned gran fondos, so a little appearance money plus reinforcement from the faithful he's 'a champion' would be pretty good in his world.

It's true the IOC might not allow the ban to be reduced. But, money talks at the IOC so, for me, it's not clear what the response would be. IMO, we don't know something behind the dragging it out strategy. Maybe the UCI working a deal, maybe hiding the money, maybe pure exceptionalism on Wonderboy's part. Lots of maybes.

I certainly would not want to explain to existing sponsors how having Armstrong around is good for them......

 

[DirtyWorks]

I certainly would not want to explain to existing sponsors how having Armstrong around is good for them......

Really, there's not too much downside to having someone like a Wonderboy appear at your event. Wonderboy 'winning' a San Diego unsanctioned Triathlon generated huge press.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Buried in this thread was the suggestion Wonderboy was motor pacing some current pro.

That pro is Tejay Van Garderen who thinks about all the good these riders have done...

Lance lives down the block from me, in Aspen. We’ve gone on some rides together, he’s even motorpaced me behind his Vespa.


Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2014...ran-fondo-hincapie_349986#BroHPZ82jCmwMQaH.99

Seems legit.

 

[Race Radio]

Buried in this thread was the suggestion Wonderboy was motor pacing some current pro.

That pro is Tejay Van Garderen

Lance lives down the block from me, in Aspen. We’ve gone on some rides together, he’s even motorpaced me behind his Vespa.


Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2014...ran-fondo-hincapie_349986#BroHPZ82jCmwMQaH.99

Seems legit.

Good post Race!

How would you feel of one of the "New Generation" went motorpacing with Lance?

On one hand I can understand. It is just motorpacing. It can be a pain to find someone who can do it right. I image Lance knows what he is doing.....but the optics?

I am sure it will be dissected here when it happens

 

[mrhender]

Really, there's not too much downside to having someone like a Wonderboy appear at your event. Wonderboy 'winning' a San Diego unsanctioned Triathlon generated huge press.

We have a saying in my country. Quoted from Simon Spies...
A very rich and *I don't give a ****' guy who ran a popular travel agency from the 70's, an onwards...

He said:

All advertisement is good advertisement...

In a country as big as USA I'am sure he still has a lot of followers...
And I'am sure the non-followers also will follow the event