Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[blackcat]

How else do they cling to some idea Wonderboy is praiseworthy?

April Macy tongue tied

 

[D-Queued]

Abraham Maslow's law of instrument aka Maslow's hammer.

have an entire bureaucracy and dep't in Aigle accountable to technical specifications, that is what they are gonna do.

aka, US have standing army, standing army qua standing army compelled to be more than just holding their balls in formation.

Sheesh. You made me look him up and try and get educated this morning.

Unfortunately, I haven't self-actualized very much and my head is still hurting.

Dave.

 

[blackcat]

ok, all I meant was, technical dep't in Aigle or Zurich, they gotta be doing something they can justify, and they consider valid, and not just twiddle their thumbs.

Technical dep't gunna do what a technical dep't gunna do, validity or invalid(sic)

technicaldep't quatechnicaldept

 

[Semper Fidelis]

That is a really interesting document. LA’s highest measured V02 max was 80, and his lactate threshold 60. But that was late season, and Coyle claimed a value of 83, and since in this document they thought he could increase his lactate threshold 5-10%, so I’ll give him the 83 with an 80% threshold. His efficiency according to Coyle increased to about 23% after cancer, so we have all the data we need to estimate his FTP. It comes out to about 5.25 watts/kg. To put that in perspective, that is very roughly 45 minutes up ADH. And even that is generous, as in the document they record his watts at threshold as a maximum of 350, which is only about 4.50 watts/kg at 78 kg, his recorded weight in 1995. That lower value would result from his alleged lower efficiency at that time.

A real surprise is that his HT was measured at 46.7% once and at 48.8 % another time. Yet according to passport data I've seen, his natural HT is in the low 40s, and I believe RR has even claimed it's below 40. If that discrepancy is real, one would have to assume he was on EPO back in the early 90s, and even during the offseason (December). Moreover, if he could put out only 5.25 watts/kg with a HT in the upper 40s (assuming a higher efficiency than implied in the data in this document), to get to the watts he later put out in the Tours, he would have to get his HT well over 50, or be on some other oxygen vector as has been speculated. Or perhaps lose some weight with no loss of power, a la Froome.

I also found it interesting that his measured height was almost 2 cm more in 1991 than in 1995. I wouldn't expect such a large difference of variation for a parameter that is supposed to be constant.

Finally, I find it interesting that back then in the early 90s we have all the data we would expect trainers would obtain from a rider to gauge his potential. Yet twenty years later, Sky apparently has never done a V02max test on Froome, let alone threshold or other parameters measured multiple times on Armstrong. When I and others have raised this issue, we get BS answers such as, there is more to potential than measurable physiological parameters, or it would be too disruptive of training to make such measurements.

His vo2 was an 80 which is not bad. It is his power rates that are low. An 80 at the pro level is not grand tour great.

I have no idea how any athlete in endurance does not know their vo2 score if the are really training. Especially a world class cyclist.

 

[Night Rider]

Yes, interesting indeed. The scores of a 20 year old in the winter with no comment on the relative physical shape he was in at that time, with everybody else's name redacted on this 'public' document. I wonder why? Oh yeah....it's good red meat.

The irony of Julich being the first name covered up, lol. Shall we uncover one each day?

Why did the people who uploaded all these documents cover the names up? They weren't covered when submitted for the arbitration.

 

[doperhopper]

It would not have counted. He's ineligible.


Dave.

But that's exactly the PR trick - I'm da best, btchz! And one can count on another round of "give the jerseys back" apologists

 

[Kicker661]

at 78 kg, his recorded weight in 1995.

I also found it interesting that his measured height was almost 2 cm more in 1991 than in 1995. I wouldn't expect such a large difference of variation for a parameter that is supposed to be constant.

The bodyweights stated for Lance are crazy. Maybe i'd believe it as a fat offseason weight but not a race weight.

Ben Johnson, same height, fatter than Lance here at 79kg. Lance would be in the region of 68kg race weight.

If you use 68kg as his weight how do all your calculations look?

 

[ChrisE]

The bodyweights stated for Lance are crazy. Maybe i'd believe it as a fat offseason weight but not a race weight.

Ben Johnson, same height, fatter than Lance here at 79kg. Lance would be in the region of 68kg race weight.

If you use 68kg as his weight how do all your calculations look?

Who is the dude on the right? Looks like part of the whack pack from Howard Stern.

 

[ChrisE]

The irony of Julich being the first name covered up, lol. Shall we uncover one each day?

Why did the people who uploaded all these documents cover the names up? They weren't covered when submitted for the arbitration.

No, no, Night Rider. Bad Night Rider. Pointing out stuff like this in the clinic!

Suggest you read up on the clinic 'debate' rules.

 

[blackcat]

Who is the dude on the right? Looks like part of the whack pack from Howard Stern.

yes, walks light in his loafers I think the euphemism is. def a bottom.

 

[ChrisE]

yes, walks light in his loafers I think the euphemism is. def a bottom.

You got a Diadora shirt like that? Goes good with those shorts.

 

[blackcat]

No, no, Night Rider. Bad Night Rider. Pointing out stuff like this in the clinic!

Suggest you read up on the clinic 'debate' rules.

isn't it Kit? Or KNight Ridder the journos who atleast do gud work

 

[blackcat]

You got a Diadora shirt like that? Goes good with those shorts.

no, I was a FILA man. Like Boom Boom Becker. Remember how it took him 5 minutes to impregnate a waitress in the cloakroom at Nobu Restaurant in London. 1 minute chatting her up, one minute finding a space, one minute for undress, one minute for deed, and one minute for redress and escape then to dine on the Japanese culinary cuisine pleonasm.

 

[ChrisE]

no, I was a FILA man. Like Boom Boom Becker. Remember how it took him 5 minutes to impregnate a waitress in the cloakroom at Nobu Restaurant in London. 1 minute chatting her up, one minute finding a space, one minute for undress, one minute for deed, and one minute for redress and escape then to dine on the Japanese culinary cuisine pleonasm.

I never like Becker, and the fact he didn't use a condom confirms my feelings.

 

[blackcat]

I never like Becker, and the fact he didn't use a condom confirms my feelings.

prophylactics arent what they were. I'll give you that.

do you think Ricky Riccio consumated? and if you think he did, do you think he double wrapped?

 

[ChrisE]

prophylactics arent what they were. I'll give you that.

do you think Ricky Riccio consumated? and if you think he did, do you think he double wrapped?

I dunno. Who in the **** is Ricky Riccio?

 

[blackcat]

I dunno. Who in the **** is Ricky Riccio?

sacrilege! mon dieu!

the cobra does not suffer ur insolence. sacrebleu!

 

[Merckx index]

The bodyweights stated for Lance are crazy. Maybe i'd believe it as a fat offseason weight but not a race weight.

Ben Johnson, same height, fatter than Lance here at 79kg. Lance would be in the region of 68kg race weight.

If you use 68kg as his weight how do all your calculations look?

But as Python pointed out, his body fat was very low in 1995, indicating not much room for weight loss except for muscle.

In any case, V02max relative already takes weight into account. If he had a value of 80 at a weight of 78 kg, then at 68kg, assuming no loss of oxygen utilization, you would get a V02max of 92, up there with Lemond. I have never, ever heard anyone report that LA had a V02max anywhere near that high.

But even if you give him that, it just gets him to about 6 watts/kg, a little over 400 watts at 68 kg. That still does not account for some of his performance, e.g., well below 40' up ADH.

And yet there are still people in this forum who criticize Ross Tucker for drawing a line in the sand at 6.2-6.3 watts/kg.

 

[D-Queued]

But that's exactly the PR trick - I'm da best, btchz! And one can count on another round of "give the jerseys back" apologists

They need no provocation, nor any excuse. We can pretty much count on another round with nary a PR trick.

Dave.

 

[Archibald]

sacrilege! mon dieu!
the cobra does not suffer ur insolence. sacrebleu!

french for an Italian?

 

[Kicker661]

But as Python pointed out, his body fat was very low in 1995, indicating not much room for weight loss except for muscle.

In any case, V02max relative already takes weight into account. If he had a value of 80 at a weight of 78 kg, then at 68kg, assuming no loss of oxygen utilization, you would get a V02max of 92, up there with Lemond. I have never, ever heard anyone report that LA had a V02max anywhere near that high.

But even if you give him that, it just gets him to about 6 watts/kg, a little over 400 watts at 68 kg. That still does not account for some of his performance, e.g., well below 40' up ADH.

And yet there are still people in this forum who criticize Ross Tucker for drawing a line in the sand at 6.2-6.3 watts/kg.

You can easily get Lance's weight lower. My 68kg numbers uses the same BMI that Jan Ullrich had (21.7) yet Lance was skeletal in comparison to 'Big Jan Ullrich'. Today's pros are high 19s but they are painfully thin so use a BMI of 20.5 and it spits out a weight of 65kg.

His pre weight loss at same BF looks more like 74kg to me. I just can't see 78kg of weight there. He is very lean and still has a small frame. Meh, probably a moot point i guess as it's really only his TDF race weight that really matters.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Who is the dude on the right? Looks like part of the whack pack from Howard Stern.

Its Ben Johnson's coach Charlie Francis who got several Canadian sprinters on PEDs, primarily steroids.

 

[Merckx index]

You can easily get Lance's weight lower. My 68kg numbers uses the same BMI that Jan Ullrich had (21.7) yet Lance was skeletal in comparison to 'Big Jan Ullrich'. Today's pros are high 19s but they are painfully thin so use a BMI of 20.5 and it spits out a weight of 65kg.

His pre weight loss at same BF looks more like 74kg to me. I just can't see 78kg of weight there. He is very lean and still has a small frame. Meh, probably a moot point i guess as it's really only his TDF race weight that really matters.

Well, if you want to assume 65 kg with no loss of power, you can get his V02max up to 94, based on 6.1 l reported/estimated by Coyle (see below). That would be one of the highest ever recorded, and with other data (see below), would get him up to 6.4 watts/kg, and fairly consistent with his best climbs. E.g., that corresponds to an ADH climb of roughly 38 minutes.

Coyle, however, reported a V02max of 81 in September 1993, shortly after LA won the WC RR, and 83 sometime in 1999. Following his bout with cancer, when he was not training consistently, it dropped to 66. Coyle adds:

Laboratory measures of the subject in our study were not made soon after the Tour de France; however, with the conservative assumption that [absolute] V̇O2 max was at least 6.1 l/min and given his reported body weight of 72 kg, we estimate his [relative] V̇O2 max to have been at least 85 ml·kg−1·min−1 during the period of his victories in the Tour de France.

and

Total body weight during laboratory testing ranged from ∼76 to 80 kg from 1992 through 1997 as well as during the preseason in 1999. However, when competing in the Tour de France in 1999–2004, body weight was reported by the subject to be ∼72–74 kg. Lean body weight was ∼70 kg during the period of 1992–1997 (Table 2). His height was ∼178 cm.

Coyle also claimed a lactate threshold of 75-85%; using the maximum end of this range, together with the other measurements, he estimated an FTP of 5.60. This is contrasted with 4.74 in 1992, which is roughly about what the document linked by DW claimed. So to summarize, Coyle’s controversial claim, which has been discussed extensively here and elsewhere, is that LA achieved a large increase in power not through any significant increase in absolute V02max, but through weight loss and efficiency increase.

However, that higher power is not the entire story. The higher FTP estimated by Coyle works out to an ADH climb of roughly 43 minutes, still far slower than what he actually accomplished. If we accept your speculation that LA could have gotten down to 65 kg without loss of power, then his power/weight ratio, as I noted above, would be consistent with his actual results. So one could I suppose argue that LA lost a lot of weight right before the TDF, and lied about how much to Coyle, not wanting anyone to know his actual racing weight.

But even if we accept all this—and remember it also assumes the very controversial, highly criticized claim by Coyle of a large increase in efficiency—we’re still left with the HT discrepancy. The document DW linked reports a HT in the upper 40s, which is very hard to reconcile with the much lower HT in his published passport data.

 

[blackcat]

french for an Italian?

was intentional

 

[poupou]

The bodyweights stated for Lance are crazy. Maybe i'd believe it as a fat offseason weight but not a race weight.

Ben Johnson, same height, fatter than Lance here at 79kg. Lance would be in the region of 68kg race weight.

If you use 68kg as his weight how do all your calculations look?

Are you sure of Ben's weight ?
If you have a look on NBA players' weights it's incorrect!