Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[Louison]

Berzin, where have said Armstrong did not dope? I am convinced he did but I am not convinced he is the monster you people make him out to be. It's amazing how many attacks on me are based on things I have never said. Is it too much to ask for people to stick to what other people are saying or at least clearly implying or does that not fit the bullying that one of the two extremes engage in around here? Ironically that extreme rants on about the other extreme doing the exact same thing.

Brodeal- I see you are sticking to your trolling/flaming and ignoring what I actually said. No surprise. What gets you off.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Fine, thanks. Excellent. But then doesn't it already extend beyond him? And I don't mean this in the sense of "oh, everyone was doing it, blah, blah,"

It does extend beyond him, yes.
Nowhere have I said that is not true - but it does not change the points about Armstrong.

But the sport as a whole let it go. And, also, lying "to all." You're all about precision in posts. Lies are told to those who believe them. So who exactly did he lie to? USPS? Yes. Anyone else?

Loads more - all those who bought his books or who support his charity believing he is some unique character (which is what he told them).

You think Not About the Bike would have been a bestseller if underneath that it said "it was about the EPO and paying off the UCI to become a world class cyclist".

 

[Louison]

Yes you go on about "both extremes" - but what does that mean?

Are you arguing that Armstrong did not bully, dope and deceive people throughout his career? That is all that many of us say about him - thats not "hating" on anyone or being "irrational" - it is a simple fact.

When talk about the extremes I talk about the people who still Armstrong didn't dope and has done nothing wrong and the people like you,thehog,benniti,etc. who bully anyone who does but into everything you guys post 100%
, who think/imply Armstrong is evil at every turn. In other words the black or white people, the Armstrong is a god or he is the devil people.

Perhaps you should try joining me in the middle as someone who believes Armstrong doped and that he has been an a-hole and treated some people badly but that he also has done some great things, been a wonderful person to some people and has given a lot of himself. It's quite nice being here in reality. Give it a try it may open your eyes...and you might actually like it.

 

[BroDeal]

Berzin, where have said Armstrong did not dope? I am convinced he did but I am not convinced he is the monster you people make him out to be. It's amazing how many attacks on me are based on things I have never said. Is it too much to ask for people to stick to what other people are saying or at least clearly implying or does that not fit the bullying that one of the two extremes engage in around here? Ironically that extreme rants on about the other extreme doing the exact same thing.

Brodeal- I see you are sticking to your trolling/flaming and ignoring what I actually said. No surprise. What gets you off.

I see you are sticking to your attempt to define those telling the truth as extremists.

I can see the wheels turning. "Let me see. Denying that Armstrong doped won't work anymore. I'll have no credibility, so I'll have to admit that. He obviously lied and defrauded people. I'll have to give a bit a concession on that. I know! He's not as big of a jerk, fraud, and cheat as all those guys make him out to be. That's the ticket. That might just work."

You appear to be a very angry man that is having a hard time accepting reality. I suggest that you go into your garage, dust off the 1999 Trek, and go for a ride. It can have an amazing calming effect.

 

[thehog]

Their are always exceptions (like how there are people who don't like Armstrong but don't feel the need to insult and attack anyone who doesn't agree with everything they say about him), but you are a fool if you think Federer never stepped on anyone or that he does not have an ego.

Yes there's always exceptions to the rule but methinks Armstrong is the exception to the rule.

Winning races and being a champion does't mean kicking heads in. Nadel and Federer are classic examples. Beautiful tennis matches those two play and the respect after there match is to behold. Last night Andy Murray and Djokovic embrace after the match was awesome to watch - they both had tremendous respect for the epic encounter. I grew up watching Beckham. He's a massive star. Played for Man U, Real Madrid, AC Milan and his country and embodies every attribute of a true star. Always gracious and never stops trying his heart out for club and country.

Being a champion doesn't entail being nasty. Sorry but there are at least 50 athletes I could name who are enamoured and respectful of their position in society and don't the need to p!ss on everyone else....

I remember speaking Floyd and him telling me that yes we doped. He didn't mind beating other doped guys but the day Armstrong chased down a clean guy and derided him he knew we'd lost sight of what we were doing. Thats your mate... but of course that just being a champion yes?

I think you're more angry with yourself finding out that Armstrong lied to you and everything you believe in. Its ok. He ran a good game of deception. Don't feel so bad he cheated you as well.

 

[thehog]

You appear to be a very angry man that is having a hard time accepting reality. I suggest that you go into your garage, dust off the 1999 Trek, and go for a ride. It can have an amazing calming effect.

This I love - so true.

 

[aphronesis]

It does extend beyond him, yes.
Nowhere have I said that is not true - but it does not change the points about Armstrong.


Loads more - all those who bought his books or who support his charity believing he is some unique character (which is what he told them).

You think Not About the Bike would have been a bestseller if underneath that it said "it was about the EPO and paying off the UCI to become a world class cyclist".

Well, you know I found yesterday (in a NY bookstore) that Lawrence Taylor's tell-all is a rare book that retails for at least 65 US.

So maybe the trajectory would have been different.

But this is, again, what I'm asking. If you already suspected he was cheating why buy the book? For some truth? A counter argument?

Or, alternatively, give the freakish status accorded to cycling and cyclists in the US then (and still now), rather than as just something you do--anyone who bought the book here purchased what they wanted.

I agree with you about unique. That is the crux. But how can you locate the fraud with him? When it obviously isn't?

Moreover, people support push-button crap charities daily. Rather than doing something useful. People in this country could mostly avoid cancer if they organized their lives properly. But they don't. So why is this a flashpoint still?

Because of the comeback?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

When talk about the extremes I talk about the people who still Armstrong didn't dope and has done nothing wrong and the people like you,thehog,benniti,etc. who bully anyone who does but into everything you guys post 100%
, who think/imply Armstrong is evil at every turn. In other words the black or white people, the Armstrong is a god or he is the devil people.

I have read this twice and cannot get your point -I assume you wrote it in haste.

Perhaps you should try joining me in the middle as someone who believes Armstrong doped and that he has been an a-hole and treated some people badly but that he also has done some great things, been a wonderful person to some people and has given a lot of himself. It's quite nice being here in reality. Give it a try it may open your eyes...and you might actually like it.

You acknowledge that he doped, lied, cheated, was an a-hole etc...
Does that mean you hate him of course not. It is what it is.

I would be interested in knowing what "great things" he has done - not saying he hasn't but I do not know what great things he has done, or how it would take away from what we agreed about him.

 

[MarkvW]

Berzin, where have said Armstrong did not dope? I am convinced he did but I am not convinced he is the monster you people make him out to be. It's amazing how many attacks on me are based on things I have never said. Is it too much to ask for people to stick to what other people are saying or at least clearly implying or does that not fit the bullying that one of the two extremes engage in around here? Ironically that extreme rants on about the other extreme doing the exact same thing.

Brodeal- I see you are sticking to your trolling/flaming and ignoring what I actually said. No surprise. What gets you off.

A few posters will recast your post to mean what they want it to mean. A few will even quote you (with quotation marks!) as saying something you never said. One is particularly renowned for constantly battering a poster he doesn't agree with with requests for links. And then there are the personal insults ("lies", "hypocrisy", etc.). I imagine that these posters feel that they are in a battle for the "soul" of the Lance Armstrong discussions in this forum and that they must never lag in their effort to attack people who disagree with them. But there are only a few posters like that. Don't let them bother you!

 

[Louison]

Cue the attack dogs still sticking to spinning what they can, ignoring what they can't spin and tossing out insults.


Maserati, you don't get it because you don't want to. You truly believe that you are 100% correct about everything so you can't see that you are one of people in one of the extremes. Yes I am posting on my iPhone and am posting quickly but a few spelling mistakes and one missed word should not stand in the way of you knowing what the two extremes are here. When it comes to great things how about all the people with cancer who have been inspired. How about the people he takes personal time to be with. Hearing from people who know him he is a pretty great dad. He did some pretty nice things for his teammates who helped him. He gave marathoners some big compliments. I could find more but that was just off the top of my head.
Seriously try taking some time off from one of the extremes your eyes will be opened to the reality of places like this forum.

P. S.- the first item was not in response to you.

 

[MarkvW]

Well, you know I found yesterday (in a NY bookstore) that Lawrence Taylor's tell-all is a rare book that retails for at least 65 US.

So maybe the trajectory would have been different.

But this is, again, what I'm asking. If you already suspected he was cheating why buy the book? For some truth? A counter argument?

Or, alternatively, give the freakish status accorded to cycling and cyclists in the US then (and still now), rather than as just something you do--anyone who bought the book here purchased what they wanted.

I agree with you about unique. That is the crux. But how can you locate the fraud with him? When it obviously isn't?

Moreover, people support push-button crap charities daily. Rather than doing something useful. People in this country could mostly avoid cancer if they organized their lives properly. But they don't. So why is this a flashpoint still?

Because of the comeback?

You can find Lawrence Taylor's autobiography "Over the Edge" for $7.99 on amazon.com, and his other one "On the Edge" for $7.00. Maybe it was a NY bookstore with an autographed copy! Taylor's toxic now. He's a dopehead with a sexual assault arrest.

I'd take your point further. Why support any of Lance Armstrong's sponsors? As for me, I'll buy a Mongoose bicycle before I buy a Trek!

I think this is still a flashpoint because of the continuing investigation or investigations that involve Armstrong.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Well, you know I found yesterday (in a NY bookstore) that Lawrence Taylor's tell-all is a rare book that retails for at least 65 US.

I have no idea who that is, so....

So maybe the trajectory would have been different.

But this is, again, what I'm asking. If you already suspected he was cheating why buy the book? For some truth? A counter argument?

Effectively yes - there were suspicions about LA but nothing more.

Or, alternatively, give the freakish status accorded to cycling and cyclists in the US then (and still now), rather than as just something you do--anyone who bought the book here purchased what they wanted.

I agree with you about unique. That is the crux. But how can you locate the fraud with him? When it obviously isn't?

Moreover, people support push-button crap charities daily. Rather than doing something useful. People in this country could mostly avoid cancer if they organized their lives properly. But they don't. So why is this a flashpoint still?

Because of the comeback?

I actually have no idea what any of the above means - nor what is its relation to Armstrong being a doper, a cheat and a fraud?

 

[Velodude]

A few posters will recast your post to mean what they want it to mean. A few will even quote you (with quotation marks!) as saying something you never said. One is particularly renowned for constantly battering a poster he doesn't agree with with requests for links. And then there are the personal insults ("lies", "hypocrisy", etc.). I imagine that these posters feel that they are in a battle for the "soul" of the Lance Armstrong discussions in this forum and that they must never lag in their effort to attack people who disagree with them. But there are only a few posters like that. Don't let them bother you!

Correct me if I have misinterpreted.

This appears to be a sympatico post to unashamed LA fanboy Louison

 

[aphronesis]

I actually have no idea what any of the above means - nor what is its relation to Armstrong being a doper, a cheat and a fraud?[/QUOTE]

Let's not get bogged down in this again. The above refers to the any or all who you suggested were defrauded by buying LA's book.

Doper, cheat, fraud. People would not have purchased the book ( you say) had he marketed it that way. Fine. But who are the people buying such books anyway?

You? But you knew he was probably doping. Non-cyclists? Then what does it matter to them when the doping was endemic? Where and how do you locate this fraud?

 

[BroDeal]

I would be interested in knowing what "great things" he has done - not saying he hasn't but I do not know what great things he has done, or how it would take away from what we agreed about him.

Spending $6M of his "charity's" for a shindig in Ireland helped the McQuaids get drunk. And that $3.5M spent on t-shirts might have helped someone other than Armstrong himself. I cannot think of anyone, but eventually they will end up at Good Will and help a few bums. Great things. Truly great things.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Cue the attack dogs still sticking to spinning what they can, ignoring what they can't spin and tossing out insults.


Maserati, you don't get it because you don't want to. You truly believe that you are 100% correct about everything so you can't see that you are one of people in one of the extremes.

No, I don't get it because your responses are of a personal nature and do not offer an alternative to what I say.

Yes I am posting on my iPhone and am posting quickly but a few spelling mistakes and one missed word should not stand in the way of you knowing what the two extremes are here. When it comes to great things how about all the people with cancer who have been inspired. How about the people he takes personal time to be with. Hearing from people who know him he is a pretty great dad. He did some pretty nice things for his teammates who helped him. He gave marathoners some big compliments. I could find more but that was just off the top of my head.
Seriously try taking some time off from one of the extremes your eyes will be opened to the reality of places like this forum.

P. S.- the first item was not in response to you.

So, the good things he has done, revolve around his cancer work?
He has profited from that, so i do not really give him much credit for that - as for inspiring, his inspiration was because he came back from cancer and beat everyone while clean and never taking drugs......

 

[Benotti69]

Let's not get bogged down in this again. The above refers to the any or all who you suggested were defrauded by buying LA's book.

Doper, cheat, fraud. People would not have purchased the book ( you say) had he marketed it that way. Fine. But who are the people buying such books anyway?

You? But you knew he was probably doping. Non-cyclists? Then what does it matter to them when the doping was endemic? Where and how do you locate this fraud?

What does it matter when you tell your life story in book form to make a lot of money that you leave out the bit where you cheat and dope? I suppose people wouldn't want to read that....

 

[MarkvW]

Correct me if I have misinterpreted.

This appears to be a sympatico post to unashamed LA fanboy Louison

You have misinterpreted. I like to see people have their say and not get gnawed at by semiliterate attack dogs!

There is only one way to attack Armstrong, and that is by kindness and persuasion and by encouraging people to not purchase anything that has ever been sold or sponsored by Armstrong. It's moronic to attack the fanboys. Attacking them solidifies their opinions; it does not prompt careful reconsideration. Every converted fanboy is a person who is immunized to the Armstrong sponsorship spiel.

In other words, you serve Armstrong when you attack his fanboys like a rabid arschloch.

 

[BroDeal]

Doper, cheat, fraud. People would not have purchased the book ( you say) had he marketed it that way. Fine. But who are the people buying such books anyway?

The gullible, the feeble minded, and Louison.

 

[aphronesis]

No, I don't get it because your responses are of a personal nature and do not offer an alternative to what I say.



So, the good things he has done, revolve around his cancer work?
He has profited from that, so i do not really give him much credit for that - as for inspiring, his inspiration was because he came back from cancer and beat everyone while clean and never taking drugs......

Gotten a little too weird here with the detractors and boosterists.

I don't have an i-phone, and don't post off one. But thanks for putting me in with Louison.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Let's not get bogged down in this again. The above refers to the any or all who you suggested were defrauded by buying LA's book.

Doper, cheat, fraud. People would not have purchased the book ( you say) had he marketed it that way. Fine. But who are the people buying such books anyway?

You? But you knew he was probably doping. Non-cyclists? Then what does it matter to them when the doping was endemic? Where and how do you locate this fraud?

I said he was suspicious at that time - his book was a way to read his story - which was a lie, a work of fiction.

Basically anyone who bought that book and quotes any part of it, his cancer work, athletic ability )or being a National TT champion on a 40 mile course etc) as a reason to defend him has been fooled.

If it had been sold as a work of fiction then that would be fine, it wasn't so he defrauded those who bought his story.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Sorry, haven't been here in a while.

Any news on the state of the investigation? Is the grand jury in L.A. still looking at L.A.?

 

[palmerq]

hi guys just a friendly reminder to not get insulting..

 

[Benotti69]

Sorry, haven't been here in a while.

Any news on the state of the investigation? Is the grand jury in L.A. still looking at L.A.?

Of course they are, Amrstrong and his associates have a trail that is very long and dirty.

 

[thehog]

Cue the attack dogs still sticking to spinning what they can, ignoring what they can't spin and tossing out insults.


When it comes to great things how about all the people with cancer who have been inspired. How about the people he takes personal time to be with. Hearing from people who know him he is a pretty great dad. He did some pretty nice things for his teammates who helped him. He gave marathoners some big compliments. I could find more but that was just off the top of my head.
Seriously try taking some time off from one of the extremes your eyes will be opened to the reality of places like this forum.

P. S.- the first item was not in response to you.

Great Dad? I guess thats why he cheated on his first wife and they later divorced. Stephanie McIlvainin in her phone call to Greg LeMond joked how little he was there for the children. But thats personal so lets not go there. Besides being a great Dad is the norm. All my friends are great Dads. They don't require special accolades for being so. Its what they do.

If handing out compliments to Marathon runners means you're an inspiration then Robert De Castella has my vote for an awesome dude! Am I an inspriation?

Team-mates? What you mean the ones who still have't been paid or Floyd? who kept shhh all these years wasn't going to be rehired by his former boss?

Top guy all round our Lance.