Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[Louison]

Really? Are we still trotting at this line to excuse the his behaviour?

Where is an excuse? I pointed out facts that you and your buddies can't see through your obsessive, irrational hate for a person you don't even know.

Send a memo to Roger Federer while you'll at it and tell he'd win more (if thats possible) if he became mean and nasty.

Their are always exceptions (like how there are people who don't like Armstrong but don't feel the need to insult and attack anyone who doesn't agree with everything they say about him), but you are a fool if you think Federer never stepped on anyone or that he does not have an ego.

This is utter ********. Alberto Contador will probably become the greatest winning cyclist of all time - he's nothing like Armstrong was in terms of ego. Its simply not true that you have to behave like this to be successful.

Do you mean the guy who is fighting a well deserved doping ban? The guy who has has a history of riding for teams that have had a lot of doping and DS's that are known for having dopers? Now, remember your obsessive/irrational hate for Armstrong also extends to Bruyneel, so you cant just dismiss this. Do you mean the guy who ignores team strategy in order to have his own personal success? The guy who takes advantage of other riders mechanical issues to help him win? The guy with the dumb vistory salute that he has created a logo and plastered all over himself and his bike? I could go on but I think you get my point about Contador.

No, you don't have be an a-hole to be a great athlete but you do have to have a big ego (just doing the training to get to that point means you have to think you are great and let people know this in order to be able to put yourself above everything else in order to do the necessary training) and you have to step on people (because of what I mentioned in parenthesis above and the fact that people will always want to stop you from succeeding.) in order to succeed. Take a look at some of the greatest athletes in every sport and see how many are simply super people with no reports of ego, being an a-hole or stepping on people. The list is very small and its not a coincidence.

..and to trot out the doping is not like raping someone is digesting. Its the same routine of using the cancer shield. So its not rape so its ok then? Please. Its offensive to even bring the two together.

Digesting? Perhaps your anti-Armstrong rage is affecting your spelling.

Where did I say doping is ok? Why do you guys always put words in peoples mouths in your arguments about how evil Armstrong is? If your arguments are factually based, logical and intelligent, like you guys always claim, then you shouldn't need to do this.

Why have the two people who mentioned this not mentioned the fact that I also used murder as part of my point? I find this interesting.

My point, that was too tough for you guys to get your heads around, was that doping is not the most evil thing in the world...despite you guys making it out to be. Nowhere am I excusing anyone's doping...despite what you try to claim.

2002 just called and want their Lance dope-defence rhoeotric back.

Wasn't the "...just called and want their...back" meme from the mid-90's?
No matter, I am used to you guys spinning, lying, ignoring, insulting and attacking in your desperate quest to get rid of anyone who does not buy into every thought you have in your irrationally obsessive hate for Armstrong.

 

[Louison]

Wow, I have never heard that before

Heading out for 5 hours right now. How about you?

Did my ride when I got up. Now I get to spend the day with my son playing in the snow.

 

[thehog]

A quote from possibly the greatest cyclist of all;

“Good is something you do, not something you talk about. Some medals are pinned to your soul, not to your jacket.”

Gino Bartali
(18 July 1914 - 5 May 2000 )

Maybe those at live$trong might learn lesson and see the woods for the trees and wearing a yella band means all the wrong things.

I like it.

 

[doolols]

Louison - as one of those who often criticises the immature, personal, back-and-forth seen so often on this forum, I shan't bother to answer your points. No doubt you'll jump on this to try and prove ... well, something or other

I just wanted to say:

Ok, if you are going to be involved in a discussion as least have the common courtesy to know what is being discussed instead of flailing about blindly.

Perhaps your pro-Armstrong rage is affecting your spelling? Pots, kettles, glass houses?

 

[Benotti69]

No, you don't have be an a-hole to be a great athlete but you do have to have a big ego (just doing the training to get to that point means you have to think you are great and let people know this in order to be able to put yourself above everything else in order to do the necessary training) and you have to step on people (because of what I mentioned in parenthesis above and the fact that people will always want to stop you from succeeding.) in order to succeed. Take a look at some of the greatest athletes in every sport and see how many are simply super people with no reports of ego, being an a-hole or stepping on people. The list is very small and its not a coincidence.

I cite Gino Bartali as 1 of many examples.

Miguel Indurain of the modern era, another man with no ego.

Ullrich never struck me as having an ego.

The same old Armstrong excuses.

He is a bully, a cheat, a fraud and no matter how hard the posters who pop up here regularly trying so hard to deflect the truth they fail, miserably

 

[Louison]

Louison - as one of those who often criticises the immature, personal, back-and-forth seen so often on this forum, I shan't bother to answer your points. No doubt you'll jump on this to try and prove ... well, something or other

I just wanted to say:



Perhaps your pro-Armstrong rage is affecting your spelling? Pots, kettles, glass houses?

Yep, I was typing to fast and made a spelling error. I deserve to get called out for it.

I also deserve to call you out for the fact that you responded to this rather then trying to refute the points I made about your last post to me. You and your boys like to whine about obfuscation, but you are doing it here. Oh, wait you guys are the biggest hypocrites around.

 

[Louison]

I cite Gino Bartali as 1 of many examples.

Miguel Indurain of the modern era, another man with no ego.

Ullrich never struck me as having an ego.

The same old Armstrong excuses.

He is a bully, a cheat, a fraud and no matter how hard the posters who pop here regularly trying so hard to deflect the truth they fail, miserably

1) Perhaps they weren't, as I said (and you are ignoring) their are exceptions. Of course I do wonder if you have really researched these riders taking the tact of trying to find something instead of not really looking. No matter, three guys is still a very small amount of great athletes. Just off the top of my head I can come up with many more athletes that fit the profile:

Michael Schumacher
Maradonna
Muhammad Ali
Kobe Bryant
Alberto Contador
Ty Cobb
Eddy Merckx
Bernard Hinault
Tiger Woods

I could go on and on, but that is just a few off the top of my head.

2) Nowhere was I making excuses for Armstrong, just pointing out that you guys choose to ignore traits that are in just about every great athlete and make them out to be only Armstrong in order to make him seem like an evil person.

3) Once again you try to make him out to be something that others aren't. Heck, you and your anti-Armstrong buddies spend most of your time trying to bully anyone who does not agree with 100% of what you say. Did he cheat? Yes. Is he a fraud, well anyone who cheats is a fraud. Of course none of this gives any logical reason why you and your buddies have such an irrational and obsessive desire to make everyone say Armstrong is evil and why you spend virtually all of your posting time on this forum doing this.

Now what response will I get? Will it be the usual response you guys give involving spinning, lies, ignoring, insults and attacks or will you actually attempt to have an adult discussion? It's your choice, but I am not holding my breath.

 

[HL2037]

No, you don't have be an a-hole to be a great athlete but you do have to have a big ego (just doing the training to get to that point means you have to think you are great and let people know this in order to be able to put yourself above everything else in order to do the necessary training) and you have to step on people (because of what I mentioned in parenthesis above and the fact that people will always want to stop you from succeeding.) in order to succeed.

Why would anyone want you to not succeed?
I feel sorry for you. It must be a small and frightening world you live in.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Where is an excuse? I pointed out facts that you and your buddies can't see through your obsessive, irrational hate for a person you don't even know.

This appears to be the cornerstone of your argument.
That anyone who highlights Armstrongs fraudulent career hates him and is being irrational.

I don't hate Armstrong, I don't like his doping and how he was assisted by the authorities to bully and buy everyone.
If you wish to argue these facts I would be delighted to hear from you - in fact we could so so in a rational way.

Their are always exceptions (like how there are people who don't like Armstrong but don't feel the need to insult and attack anyone who doesn't agree with everything they say about him), but you are a fool if you think Federer never stepped on anyone or that he does not have an ego.

Again you are claiming people have insulted you? Who has?
And then you actually insult a poster?

Do you mean the guy who is fighting a well deserved doping ban? The guy who has has a history of riding for teams that have had a lot of doping and DS's that are known for having dopers? Now, remember your obsessive/irrational hate for Armstrong also extends to Bruyneel, so you cant just dismiss this. Do you mean the guy who ignores team strategy in order to have his own personal success? The guy who takes advantage of other riders mechanical issues to help him win? The guy with the dumb vistory salute that he has created a logo and plastered all over himself and his bike? I could go on but I think you get my point about Contador.

Thats a lot of 'hate' towards Contador, almost irrational.
BTW do you know Contador? It doesn't matter if you don't, but it appeared to be one of your central arguments earlier.

No, you don't have be an a-hole to be a great athlete but you do have to have a big ego (just doing the training to get to that point means you have to think you are great and let people know this in order to be able to put yourself above everything else in order to do the necessary training) and you have to step on people (because of what I mentioned in parenthesis above and the fact that people will always want to stop you from succeeding.) in order to succeed. Take a look at some of the greatest athletes in every sport and see how many are simply super people with no reports of ego, being an a-hole or stepping on people. The list is very small and its not a coincidence.

Ok - but why does this not extend to Contador?

Digesting? Perhaps your anti-Armstrong rage is affecting your spelling.

Where did I say doping is ok? Why do you guys always put words in peoples mouths in your arguments about how evil Armstrong is? If your arguments are factually based, logical and intelligent, like you guys always claim, then you shouldn't need to do this.

I asked before - who has ever said Armstrong is "evil"?? Is that not putting words in peoples mouths?

Why have the two people who mentioned this not mentioned the fact that I also used murder as part of my point? I find this interesting.

My point, that was too tough for you guys to get your heads around, was that doping is not the most evil thing in the world...despite you guys making it out to be. Nowhere am I excusing anyone's doping...despite what you try to claim.

Who said that? Who are these guys?
I don't think doping is the most evil thing in the world.

However, this is a cycling website, this is the part where we discuss doping, this is the Armstrong thread - what were you expecting when you came here?

Wasn't the "...just called and want their...back" meme from the mid-90's?
No matter, I am used to you guys spinning, lying, ignoring, insulting and attacking in your desperate quest to get rid of anyone who does not buy into every thought you have in your irrationally obsessive hate for Armstrong.

Again - this is something you cling to and cannot back up.

Perhaps if you could explain and show it in a rational manner it would be useful. Because at present it appears you are trying to get a rise out of people by throwing out unsupported claims.

 

[Benotti69]

1) Perhaps they weren't, as I said (and you are ignoring) their are exceptions. Of course I do wonder if you have really researched these riders taking the tact of trying to find something instead of not really looking. No matter, three guys is still a very small amount of great athletes. Just off the top of my head I can come up with many more athletes that fit the profile:

Michael Schumacher
Maradonna
Muhammad Ali
Kobe Bryant
Alberto Contador
Ty Cobb
Eddy Merckx
Bernard Hinault
Tiger Woods

I could go on and on, but that is just a few off the top of my head.

2) Nowhere was I making excuses for Armstrong, just pointing out that you guys choose to ignore traits that are in just about every great athlete and make them out to be only Armstrong in order to make him seem like an evil person.

3) Once again you try to make him out to be something that others aren't. Heck, you and your anti-Armstrong buddies spend most of your time trying to bully anyone who does not agree with 100% of what you say. Did he cheat? Yes. Is he a fraud, well anyone who cheats is a fraud. Of course none of this gives any logical reason why you and your buddies have such an irrational and obsessive desire to make everyone say Armstrong is evil and why you spend virtually all of your posting time on this forum doing this.

Now what response will I get? Will it be the usual response you guys give involving spinning, lies, ignoring, insults and attacks or will you actually attempt to have an adult discussion? It's your choice, but I am not holding my breath.

You may have listed great athletes but not too many fit the bill as a 'great person'.

 

[Louison]

This appears to be the cornerstone of your argument.
That anyone who highlights Armstrongs fraudulent career hates him and is being irrational.

If you would actually read my points with an open mind instead of trying to find reasons why I must be wrong about everything you would see that this is false

I don't hate Armstrong, I don't like his doping and how he was assisted by the authorities to bully and buy everyone.
If you wish to argue these facts I would be delighted to hear from you - in fact we could so so in a rational way.

Perhaps you don't, but your posts sure make it seem otherwise. The constant attention you pay to Armstrong and how easily you brush off discussion that may make points that others are just as bad or that we don't have all of the facts or that he is not as bad as some claim sure make it seem like you do.

Again you are claiming people have insulted you? Who has?
And then you actually insult a poster?

If you can't see the insults then you are not looking because they are pretty obvious...but that is the M.O. of you and your buddies, ignoring how hypocritical you are.

Thats a lot of 'hate' towards Contador, almost irrational.
BTW do you know Contador? It doesn't matter if you don't, but it appeared to be one of your central arguments earlier.

Hmmm, so I can't claim that you guys hate Armstrong despite mounds of evidence, but you can claim I hate Contador because I point out some facts. Then you try to turn my arguments back on me despite the fact that they do not fit here since I merely posted proven facts.

Ok - but why does this not extend to Contador?

Who said it did not? Once again you guys are making things up. It starting to seem like you guys have a handbook that you follow.

I asked before - who has ever said Armstrong is "evil"?? Is that not putting words in peoples mouths?

I don't believe I said that people specifically said he is evil, just that people make him out to be evil...and it is pretty clearly implied by you guys.

Who said that? Who are these guys?
I don't think doping is the most evil thing in the world.

You absolutely know who I am talking about since you are one of the worst ones.
Nice job ignoring the context my point was made in...another handbook moment.
I am glad you are smart enough to think that. That may be the first intelligent point made by you guys in this thread.

However, this is a cycling website, this is the part where we discuss doping, this is the Armstrong thread - what were you expecting when you came here?

I expected to be able to make points about the topic without people attacking and insulting me, without people on one extreme or the other spinning, ignoring and making things up in order to try to "win" the internet. In short I expected rational, intelligent discussion. You guys rail on the extreme pro-Armstrong people but you are doing the exact same things they do.

Again - this is something you cling to and cannot back up.

Perhaps if you could explain and show it in a rational manner it would be useful. Because at present it appears you are trying to get a rise out of people by throwing out unsupported claims.

Except I have quoted things and mentioned specific comments.

It's interesting how you guys always go back to claiming that I am trolling or flaming or obfuscating or just trying to get a rise out of people...just when you are called out for your hypocrisy or when you are presented facts that don't fit your agenda.

It was a nice try, but all it was full of the usual things and was a pretty blatant flame job.

 

[Louison]

You may have listed great athletes but not too many fit the bill as a 'great person'.

I don't remember us discussing "great people." I seem to recall the discussion being about how great athletes tend to be a-holes, have big egos and step on people to get to the top.

Why are you using obfuscation instead of just admitting that you are wrong about this. Perhaps your ego can't take it.

 

[Benotti69]

I don't remember us discussing "great people." I seem to recall the discussion being about how great athletes tend to be a-holes, have big egos and step on people to get to the top.

Why are you using obfuscation instead of just admitting that you are wrong about this. Perhaps your ego can't take it.

Great athletes with big egos is nothing new! But a great athelte with no ego is something special unlike Armstrong. He aint nothing special.

You dont have to step on people to get to the top either.

In your list how many have stepped on people to get to the top?

Who did Contador step on?

Who did T Woods step on to get to the top?

Armstrong stepped on people, Simeoni was stepped on remember?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

If you would actually read my points with an open mind instead of trying to find reasons why I must be wrong about everything you would see that this is false.

I have read them with an open mind - as I said your points are about posters here, which are for the most part false. Yet you continue.

Perhaps you don't, but your posts sure make it seem otherwise. The constant attention you pay to Armstrong and how easily you brush off discussion that may make points that others are just as bad or that we don't have all of the facts or that he is not as bad as some claim sure make it seem like you do.

Well which is it - I have told you I don't and then you bring up my posts. Which post have I said I hate Armstrong?

Perhaps if you visited more threads here you will see that I discuss all riders.

If you can't see the insults then you are not looking because they are pretty obvious...but that is the M.O. of you and your buddies, ignoring how hypocritical you are.

Well your first post in this thread was about people hating the Lance - so it seemed an attempt to get a reaction.

Hmmm, so I can't claim that you guys hate Armstrong despite mounds of evidence, but you can claim I hate Contador because I point out some facts. Then you try to turn my arguments back on me despite the fact that they do not fit here since I merely posted proven facts.

Not at all - just that your position is hypocritical.

Who said it did not? Once again you guys are making things up. It starting to seem like you guys have a handbook that you follow.

I don't believe I said that people specifically said he is evil, just that people make him out to be evil...and it is pretty clearly implied by you guys.

Again, if you want to show that, then just do so. Repeating it does not make it so.

You absolutely know who I am talking about since you are one of the worst ones.
Nice job ignoring the context my point was made in...another handbook moment.
I am glad you are smart enough to think that. That may be the first intelligent point made by you guys in this thread.



I expected to be able to make points about the topic without people attacking and insulting me, without people on one extreme or the other spinning, ignoring and making things up in order to try to "win" the internet. In short I expected rational, intelligent discussion. You guys rail on the extreme pro-Armstrong people but you are doing the exact same things they do.





Except I have quoted things and mentioned specific comments.

It's interesting how you guys always go back to claiming that I am trolling or flaming or obfuscating or just trying to get a rise out of people...just when you are called out for your hypocrisy or when you are presented facts that don't fit your agenda.

It was a nice try, but all it was full of the usual things and was a pretty blatant flame job.

Can you please quit with the personal stuff, which I highlighted in Blue.
You have brought up many points and attribute then to posters and either ignore or do not back up your claims - yes, that is indeed trolling.

This is the Armstrong thread - if you do not like what is written about him here and feel it is untrue, then by all means argue that.
So far it appears you want to argue the posters, not the posts - and quite frankly if you continue that I will report it to the mods - you are perfectly free to report any posts that you feel have insulted you.
This is the Armstrong thread, so lets discuss him.

 

[Louison]

Yep, just the response I expected. Focusing on certain things to be able to spin my response and be able to ignore what hits home. It's just another page from that handbook.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

how about you two take this to PMs? The rest of us really don't enjoy your pi§§ing match.......

Susan

 

[BroDeal]

Someone seems to have a persecution complex. His whole life and world view is defined by opposition to "you guys."

Too bad about DPF. It was so much easier to uphold the Armstrong lie there.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

how about you two take this to PMs? The rest of us really don't enjoy your pi§§ing match.......

Susan

Take what to PMs?

I don't care for the personal remarks - which is why I requested that it be dropped.
This is the Armstrong thread, I am more than happy to discuss him.

 

[Benotti69]

Someone seems to have a persecution complex. His whole life and world view is defined by opposition to "you guys."

Too bad about DPF. It was so much easier to uphold the Armstrong lie there.

this is what happens when reality is revealed to those who followed false idols.

 

[LarryBudMelman]

how about you two take this to PMs? The rest of us really don't enjoy your pi§§ing match.......

Susan

"There comes a time in your life, when you walk away from all the drama and people who create it. You surround yourself with people who make you happy. Forget the bad, and focus on the good. Love the people who treat you right, pray for the ones who don't. Life is too short to be anything but happy. "

God forbid anyone might want to face reality?

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."

If you "authorities" want to create a tension free happy zone, where phony outrage rules, you have to realize what you're giving up, namely the ability to associate.

A recusal might be indicated here?

We're too sensitive to even confront the obvious problems in something as inconsequential as cycling.

 

[MarkvW]

I cite Gino Bartali as 1 of many examples.

Miguel Indurain of the modern era, another man with no ego.

Ullrich never struck me as having an ego.

The same old Armstrong excuses.

He is a bully, a cheat, a fraud and no matter how hard the posters who pop up here regularly trying so hard to deflect the truth they fail, miserably

Another argument that Armstrong is just the absolute worst human being and we all should hate him!

 

[MarkvW]

No, he cheated all of his fans who believed him when he said he was clean.

I agree with your point that Armstrong cheated his fans. I strongly agree.

But your post is somewhat ambiguous. Do you think that he also cheated all the teams that contended against him?

This really isn't a minor point, and in many ways I think it distinguishes us sideline spectators from the athletes themselves. Floyd, I think, doesn't feel he cheated the peloton but I think he does feel sorry about his lies to the public.

I see at least two basic points points of view here:
(1) Is the athlete cheating the ideal of the sport? and/or
(2) Is the athlete cheating the dirty sport as it is actually performed?

The doping cheaters in the peloton are all definitely violating (1) and the fans that believe in the sport, but I'm not at all sure that they are violating (2) when pro cycling has always been such a dirty filthy sport.

 

[MarkvW]

this is what happens when reality is revealed to those who followed false idols.

I thought it was earthquakes and volcanoes when the false idols were unmasked!

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Another argument that Armstrong is just the absolute worst human being and we all should hate him!

Nowhere in that post you quoted did Benotti say LA is the "absolute worst human being and we all should hate him".
All he did was describe Armstrong as "a bully, a cheat and a fraud" - that is a fair and accurate statement.

 

[MarkvW]

Nowhere in that post you quoted did Benotti say LA is the "absolute worst human being and we all should hate him".
All he did was describe Armstrong as "a bully, a cheat and a fraud" - that is a fair and accurate statement.

And it is all only relevant to the Armstrong Is The Worst Human Being in the World argument.