Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[thehog]

It should also be mentioned that the Bonds prosecution was very unpopular, and in this political climate these actions are likely to be a political liability. So it very well may be that Lance is never prosecuted and this is the end of that.

Disagree. Currently in the US we have a disaffected population.

Occupation Wall St and the like has proven this.

Americans now have a deep sense that a lot of people not just in banking were using "marketing" as a method to rip people off.

The same goes for Armstrong and Bonds. The general population wants to see the prosecuted. Anyone seen taking advantage of such "freedoms" should be dealt with.

Armstrong worst crimes wasn't using PEDs but using them so he could bully everyone else out of the way so he could win and ultimately profit.

His other biggest crime is maintaining a world whereby drug use is seen as "acceptable" in sports.

Bonds the same. He'll never be seen in the same light again. He troubles have really only just begun. The biggest battle that lays ahead is his mental battle. It won't be easy to live with the contradiction in his head and you will see a downward spiral of sorts.

Armstrong is the same.

You see it time and time again - athletes who use doping products to win often lose a battle within themselves.

Time will tell.

 

[aphronesis]

Disagree. Currently in the US we have a disaffected population.

Occupation Wall St and the like has proven this.

Americans now have a deep sense that a lot of people not just in banking were using "marketing" as a method to rip people off.

The same goes for Armstrong and Bonds. The general population wants to see the prosecuted. Anyone seen taking advantage of such "freedoms" should be dealt with.

Armstrong worst crimes wasn't using PEDs but using them so he could bully everyone else out of the way so he could win and ultimately profit.

His other biggest crime is maintaining a world whereby drug use is seen as "acceptable" in sports.

Bonds the same. He'll never be seen in the same light again. He troubles have really only just begun. The biggest battle that lays ahead is his mental battle. It won't be easy to live with the contradiction in his head and you will see a downward spiral of sorts.

Armstrong is the same.

You see it time and time again - athletes who use doping products to win often lose a battle within themselves.

Time will tell.

Maybe. But you argue multiple levels of mediation here. That same population couldn't see their way clear to (they or their peers) being offered dubious mortgages on inflated shacks in the middle of nowhere as part of a 50 year old dream. You expect them to care about the intricacies of RICO sanctions for more than two minutes?

 

[Race Radio]

Gotta laugh that some try to pretend that the case against Armstrong is the same as the case against Bonds. They are not similar in the slightest. Armstrong and his buddies are in serious trouble.

While the groupies are convinced that the jury will be filled with people that believe the myth nothing could be farther from the truth. The initial allegations caused serious damages to Armstrong's creditably and popularity. Zeta Interactive measured Armstrong at 92 percent popularity in 2008 That number dropped to 51 percent in August of last year when the federal investigation ramped up. This support has continue to weaken as 60 Minutes, Sports Illustrated have exposed more.

The charges, and the involvement of the foundation, will only cause further damage. Armstrong is already a national joke. The flood of legal entanglements, and the evidence that comes with them, will result in a feeding frenzy by the media that not even Fabiani can spin his way out of.

Hell hath no fury like a groupie scorned

 

[aphronesis]

Gotta laugh that some try to pretend that the case against Armstrong is the same as the case against Bonds. They are not similar in the slightest. Armstrong and his buddies are in serious trouble.

While the groupies are convinced that the jury will be filled with people that believe the myth nothing could be farther from the truth. The initial allegations caused serious damages to Armstrong's creditably and popularity. Zeta Interactive measured Armstrong at 92 percent popularity in 2008 That number dropped to 51 percent in August of last year when the federal investigation ramped up. This support has continue to weaken as 60 Minutes, Sports Illustrated have exposed more.

The charges, and the involvement of the foundation, will only cause further damage. Armstrong is already a national joke. The flood of legal entanglements, and the evidence that comes with them, will result in a feeding frenzy by the media that not even Fabiani can spin his way out of.

Hell hath no fury like a groupie scorned

No one is pretending this. Maybe you want to disentangle things here. Is A in serious legal trouble, suffering image problems, or both?

What might be more laughable is the very, very small percentage of people who even care. Now. Let alone (given that you keep on arguing for the longevity and complexity of the situation) when the case actually breaks.

 

[Race Radio]

No one is pretending this. Maybe you want to disentangle things here. Is A in serious legal trouble, suffering image problems, or both?

What might be more laughable is the very, very small percentage of people who even care. Now. Let alone (given that you keep on arguing for the longevity and complexity of the situation) when the case actually breaks.

Thanks for proving my point

 

[aphronesis]

Thanks for proving my point

It's what you were waiting for for several hours now, but maybe you want to drop the cliches and explain which point that is?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

What untruths am I posting?

Remember this?
He's also been fined $4000, which will hopefully be put towards the estimated $70 million it cost to investigate him.

I think Armstrong doped, and due to Ferrari had one of the best programmes.

Most of his contempories - Ullrich, Basso, Beloki, Pantani, Zulle, were also dopers. I'm not going to hate Armstrong for cheating better than the other cheats.

Unless you have a truly deep interest in the US Postal Service's finances or insurance company policies, he's no different than the rest of them - just more successful. Maybe you're all financial nerds - no problem with that, my cousin is.

Nice strawman - I know this may come as a shock to you, so I hope you are sitting down. Maybe, just maybe we care because we are fans of the sport?
A crazy theory I know - which is why I hope Armstrong gets treated the same as all the other dopers that got caught.

Maybe I got the exact costs of the Bonds case wrong, but an 8 year case doesn't come cheap. It is my opinion that this investigation will lead nowhere, and may even have been dropped. It's an opinion, not fact, not hope. But I like it that some of you are so threatened by it.

M-M-Maybe you got it wrong? Well, you only exaggerated the figure by about 10 times.

Yes, your opinion - strange that you acknowledge LA doped, yet your opinion is that the investigation will lead nowhere? So, Armstrong got all his doping products for free? Or had a prescription for these products? All accounted for and taxes paid? Michele refused any remuneration for his services?
As I said, thats a hope, not an opinion.

 

[thehog]

Maybe. But you argue multiple levels of mediation here. That same population couldn't see their way clear to (they or their peers) being offered dubious mortgages on inflated shacks in the middle of nowhere as part of a 50 year old dream. You expect them to care about the intricacies of RICO sanctions for more than two minutes?

I agree with you and I think we're saying the same thing. No one cares or will even understand RiCO. But they look at things on an emotional level and if they see " cheat" in sport they rationalize it. But if they see "cheat" life then they want him him knifed.

The image of Bonds is not as bad as Armstrong. Bonds just shot up and smacked a few home runs. People don't get too wound up about that.

Armstrong unfortunately couldn't help himself and not only involved a cancer foundation in his lies but used it as a way to personally profiteer.

It will be very hard to rationalize his mess.

Finally and as RR successfully points out; Bonds was just collorlatual damage from BALCO whereby Armstrong is the primary target.

 

[aphronesis]

I agree with you and I think we're saying the same thing. No one cares or will even understand RiCO. But they look at things on an emotional level and if they see " cheat" in sport they rationalize it. But if they see "cheat" life then they want him him knifed.

The image of Bonds is not as bad as Armstrong. Bonds just shot up and smacked a few home runs. People don't get too wound up about that.

Armstrong unfortunately couldn't help himself and not only involved a cancer foundation in his lies but used it as a way to personally profiteer.

It will be very hard to rationalize his mess.

Finally and as RR successfully points out; Bonds was just collorlatual damage from BALCO whereby Armstrong is the primary target.

Frankly, I don't think anyone has seen RR "successfully" point out anything with regard to this case. Not to make it personal, but I think it's fair to say that he has a much deeper investment than many in seeing the fall. And as I pointed out above, that leads to a confusion on his part of where the hits are going to come from. Maybe he has inside information about the Qui Tam case, maybe that will make the financial break beyond any direct result from the federal investigation.

My point is this and here I think we do agree: if federal case breaks, there will be few articles to connect all the dots and they will be read by a minority of the population. In many cases by professionals who could care less about the profiteering in the grand scheme of things. Even though Armstrong's cultural ascendance was abetted by the vile climate of the Bush years and its inflationary rhetoric, he was bred in the 80s and 90s and he will depart through the prism of the victim as inculcated in those decades--whether he claims that position or not.

 

[thehog]

My point is this and here I think we do agree: if federal case breaks, there will be few articles to connect all the dots and they will be read by a minority of the population. In many cases by professionals who could care less about the profiteering in the grand scheme of things. Even though Armstrong's cultural ascendance was abetted by the vile climate of the Bush years and its inflationary rhetoric, he was bred in the 80s and 90s and he will depart through the prism of the victim as inculcated in those decades--whether he claims that position or not.

We do agree and I like your style.

The general population won't be reviewing the case files or the daily proceedings in court - we as humans rarely do. The stimuli that we do respond to is emotion. An emotion that one was trying to decieve or "take away" from us will be powerfully strong.

People will understand about the payments to hospitals and doctors to keep the doping confessionals under wraps. They will respond to the payments to finance private jets and fuel. It's the sort of obnoxious behavior that we've all grow to despise. Bad enough when it's a investment bank but when your channeling funds through a cancer foundation and carrying drugs on a plane that is paid for by donations it's going to be very hard to pass it off with "it's just sport - everyone was doing it".

Won't work.

Armstrong's downfall will be monumental and half way through you will have people baying for his blood.

 

[aphronesis]

Please provide statistics to back up your assertion that people will not care when Armstrong and his buddies are indicted on multiple crimes.

Thanks

Predicting the future in this circumstance is your preoccupation, not mine. You are quick here to lump in A and "his buddies," but have separated them in the past. I'll opine that that if the SF money takes a hit people will care to some extent. But where exactly? In Orange County? In Oakland? Not much in Pacific Heights and not on the headlands and above. No shock to them--this is only breaking news for you. And A can play the redneck, trash, abandonment card. Whether he wants to or not, it will close down that way. If it does. The pathology that so many invoked on this forum will cut both ways (as thehog likes to say).

To your question. I'll have no problem discussing with you the fallout and its reception when and if it happens.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Frankly, I don't think anyone has seen RR "successfully" point out anything with regard to this case. Not to make it personal, but I think it's fair to say that he has a much deeper investment than many in seeing the fall. And as I pointed out above, that leads to a confusion on his part of where the hits are going to come from. Maybe he has inside information about the Qui Tam case, maybe that will make the financial break beyond any direct result from the federal investigation.

My point is this and here I think we do agree: if federal case breaks, there will be few articles to connect all the dots and they will be read by a minority of the population. In many cases by professionals who could care less about the profiteering in the grand scheme of things. Even though Armstrong's cultural ascendance was abetted by the vile climate of the Bush years and its inflationary rhetoric, he was bred in the 80s and 90s and he will depart through the prism of the victim as inculcated in those decades--whether he claims that position or not.

Really?
Can you explain then why CBS 60 minutes would bother 'connecting the dots' and why the LA story had such a high viewing figure?

Time Net Show 18-49 Rating 18-49 Share Viewers Live+SD (million)
7:00 CBS 60 Minutes 1.6 5 10.390
ABC AMERICA'S Funniest Home Videos 1.6 5 6.310
NBC Dateline: NBC 1.3 4 4.910
FOX THE Simpsons - R 1.0 4 2.530
7:30 FOX American Dad 1.7 5 3.570
8:00 ABC THE 2011 BILLBOARD MUSIC AWARDS (8-11p) 3.0 8 7.880
FOX THE Simpsons 2.5 7 5.250
CBS 60 Minutes SPECIAL EDITION 1.6 5 10.790
NBC Minute To Win It 1.2 3 4.170

 

[Race Radio]

We do agree and I like your style.

The general population won't be reviewing the case files or the daily proceedings in court - we as humans rarely do. The stimuli that we do respond to is emotion. An emotion that one was trying to decieve or "take away" from us will be powerfully strong.

People will understand about the payments to hospitals and doctors to keep the doping confessionals under wraps. They will respond to the payments to finance private jets and fuel. It's the sort of obnoxious behavior that we've all grow to despise. Bad enough when it's a investment bank but when your channeling funds through a cancer foundation and carrying drugs on a plane that is paid for by donations it's going to be very hard to pass it off with "it's just sport - everyone was doing it".

Won't work.

Armstrong's downfall will be monumental and half way through you will have people baying for his blood.

Agreed.

Americans hate payoffs and corruption. They also would be really angry if foundation funds were used to research PED's or if a board member helped facilitate access to experimental drugs.

If this kind of stuff is part of the charges the mantra of "Done a lot of good" and "Never tested positive" will be useless. Armstrong's popularity has already collapsed. The charges would only enhance this collapse......no matter how much some would like to pretend/hope they would have little effect

 

[aphronesis]

Really?
Can you explain then why CBS 60 minutes would bother 'connecting the dots' and why the LA story had such a high viewing figure?

Because he was still a known quantity and the case had momentum? You think that "Armstrong II" will have similar pull?

That aside, most people are still citizens of this country and speak to its politics despite the fact that most are said to disagree with its policies and direction.

Salacious content and mass viewership do not equate to approbation and penury.

 

[aphronesis]

Agreed.

Americans hate payoffs and corruption. They also would be really angry if foundation funds were used to research PED's or if a board member helped facilitate access to experimental drugs.

If this kind of stuff is part of the charges the mantra of "Done a lot of good" and "Never tested positive" will be useless. Armstrong's popularity has already collapsed. The charges would only enhance this collapse......no matter how much some would like to pretend/hope they would have little effect

Which Americans? Not where I live. Sorry. The older ones assume it and the younger ones could care less about a media freak.

To your point, the media sound feed is not the issue here. His popularity has collapsed. So what? He was bike racer. Will his institution survive him and enable him to survive? To what extent?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Because he was still a known quantity and the case had momentum? You think that "Armstrong II" will have similar pull?

That aside, most people are still citizens of this country and speak to its politics despite the fact that most are said to disagree with its policies and direction.

Salacious content and mass viewership do not equate to approbation and penury.

So by that rational - a Federal court case will draw in more people.

 

[aphronesis]

So by that rational - a Federal court case will draw in more people.

Sure Doc. Got a link yet that he's going in on the Federal case as a principal. You're missing the point: viewership is not condemnation. Look at the level of apathy in this country.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Sure Doc. Got a link yet that he's going in on the Federal case as a principal. You're missing the point: viewership is not condemnation. Look at the level of apathy in this country.

Stephanie McIlvain - can you explain why she would be forced to attend a GJ for 7 hours or were they merely interested in finding out what new Oakleys will be coming out?

As for missing the point - well you were the one to suggest it will be followed by a minority of the population. Now you are ranting something about condemnation.

 

[aphronesis]

Stephanie McIlvain - can you explain why she would be forced to attend a GJ for 7 hours or were they merely interested in finding out what new Oakleys will be coming out?

As for missing the point - well you were the one to suggest it will be followed by a minority of the population. Now you are ranting something about condemnation.

Not a rant. Just because something is watched doesn't mean it's judged.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Not a rant. Just because something is watched doesn't mean it's judged.

Who said anything about it being judged?
Your original point was that the population won't care, I provide a link that actually quite a lot of people do and you introduce irrelevant yak.

 

[aphronesis]

Who said anything about it being judged?
Your original point was that the population won't care, I provide a link that actually quite a lot of people do and you introduce irrelevant yak.

This seems a hard point to convey: watching is not caring. We live in an age of watching. People make nothing better for themselves to do. This thread epitomizes that condition.

You accuse me of irrelevant yak? Because Stephanie McIlvain was interviewed that makes LA a principal? Bit of a leap.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

This seems a hard point to convey: watching is not caring. We live in an age of watching. People make nothing better for themselves to do. This thread epitomizes that condition.

You accuse me of irrelevant yak? Because Stephanie McIlvain was interviewed that makes LA a principal? Bit of a leap.

Ok then - why did they interview her for 7 hours?

Also, this current flurry of activity on this thread is in part to me posting the documents that show Armstrong as a Director of Tailwind Sports - that upsets people (who of course don't care) as it shows Armstrong was more than a rider on a team that benefited from using PEDs.

 

[aphronesis]

Ok then - why did they interview her for 7 hours?

Also, this current flurry of activity on this thread is in part to me posting the documents that show Armstrong as a Director of Tailwind Sports - that upsets people (who of course don't care) as it shows Armstrong was more than a rider on a team that benefited from using PEDs.

Don't know. I wasn't there. Because she was recalcitrant? Because they needed to start somewhere in terms of undermining/establishing LA's credibility and she was a fresh voice? Not Frankie or Betsy and not a teammate, but somewhat at a slight remove from those relations.

The tailwind info is not new. Seems more likely that the "flurry of activity" is due to the holiday slowdown and off season, rather than your enlightening post.

But whatever....

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Don't know. I wasn't there. Because she was recalcitrant? Because they needed to start somewhere in terms of undermining/establishing LA's credibility and she was a fresh voice? Not Frankie or Betsy and not a teammate, but somewhat at a slight remove from those relations.

Why would they need to undermine LA's credibility if he is not a 'principal'?

The tailwind info is not new. Seems more likely that the "flurry of activity" is due to the holiday slowdown and off season, rather than your enlightening post.

But whatever....

No, its not new - but it does blow away the theory that Armstrong is some poor clueless rider. It actually puts him right in there - even, dare I say it, a principal.

 

[fatandfast]

Agreed.

Americans hate payoffs and corruption. They also would be really angry if foundation funds were used to research PED's or if a board member helped facilitate access to experimental drugs.

If this kind of stuff is part of the charges the mantra of "Done a lot of good" and "Never tested positive" will be useless. Armstrong's popularity has already collapsed. The charges would only enhance this collapse......no matter how much some would like to pretend/hope they would have little effect

Are you talking about Armstrong's lack of support like that of Lemond,Eric Heiden or Rebecca Twigg? The other most popular cyclists in US history.

Armstrong never had any support. Your points about Oprah should also be listened to. He went on Oprah and all the others, told a feel good story and walked away.Even today still cashing in on opinions formed years ago, steered
by the queen of media . Lance's staying power in the public eye compared to his nearest US cycling rival Greg Lemond is very lopsided.

Armstrong has done more with his off the bike story than Lemond could have ever imagined. A year and half into the the investigation about possible Armstrong screw ups is going very, very slow using the logic of many posters that can see everything as clear as day from their computer screen. The popularity collapse that you bring up is pretty normal.
We had a speed skater, that lost his sister to cancer, he promised to win her a medal,where is that story? Has he lost public support? No. It's the simple process of history.
Lance is benefiting from his attackers convictions on doping and lying. Long paper trail of anybody who didn't get a cash exchange going to court. When the American public get exposed to Armstrong's media spin, that the data came from France and that the witness list is 80% dopers, it will be muddy for sure. The black and white, obvious guilt that passionate posters talk about is just not there.

This widespread public outrage you imply is just not there. If Landis,Hamilton, or Andreu, Mike Anderson are the hub no wonder Novitzky is slow to lace the wheel.I see a crash