Official London Olympics Doping thread

[noddy69]

Thanks for the link:
I had little respect for Bolt. It´s less now. Even tough King Carl had his cough medicine positives, he´s right on the money, and he (& Calvin Smith for example) had never such dubious performance jumps like Bolt, Blake and all the other freaks from no testing land had.

Carl Lewis & Calvin Smith at the 100´s over the years:
1979 (Age 18) 10.1 *// 10.36
1980 (Age 19) 10.21 // 10.17
1981 (Age 20) 10.00 // 10.21
1982 (Age 21) 10.00 // 10.05
1983 (Age 22) 9.97 // 9.93 (A)
1984 (Age 23) 9.99 // 10.11
1985 (Age 24) 9.98 // 10.10
1986 (Age 25) 10.06 // 10.14
1987 (Age 26) 9.93 // 10.07
1988 (Age 27) 9.92 // 9.97
1989 (Age 28) 10.05 // 10.05
1990 (Age 29) 10.05 // 10.04 (A)
1991 (Age 30) 9.86 // 10.38
1992 (Age 31) 10.07 // 10.14
1993 (Age 32) 10.02 // 10.06
1994 (Age 33) 10.04 // 10.22
1995 (Age 34) 10.12 // 10.25
1996 (Age 35) 10.03 // 10.25

Look at the constant world class level. No crazy performance jumps as seen in this clowns from Jamaica. If Lewis & Smith had taken the heavy drugs as of 1990+, they´d barely (if at all) performed past 28. Let´s see if the self proclaimed legend can produce world class sprints over a decade too. Highly doubtful. Either he is caught before, retired, or produces clown times when reaching his late 20s...

What bothers me is that Blake was banned for 3 months for using something not on he list of banned products in 2009 along with 2 other athletes. You get the feeling thats scraping the bottom of the barrel when you see the performances of the jamaicans over the last number of years in the sprints.
One athlete pushing the boundaries, even if it is scarily like Flo Jo back in the day, is a possibility, but the 200mtr final 1-2-3 really is just beyond normal when considering the times they are doing. Blake has surpassed johnsons time from 2006,that time was amazing.
I have to say that I believe there is no way they are doing what they are doing unaided. Its a bit like the Kenyan distance runners, it just isnt right yet people want to believe and so they get away with it.
The jumps in time are just not possible for the amounts of athletes doing them in jamaica. When you reach a peak of fitness your times dont just crumble,your stats show that,it really is just common sense. I think what bothers me most is Bolt. He was doing great times as a junior and it would be great to believe in what he is doing. But with all around him performing as they are then I dont hold much hope of him being a saint. Unfortunate really.

On a final not I am disappointed with the coverage that Blake recieved at the olympics. While Gatlins coverage focused on his tainted past and how Tyson Gay could have a medal if he was not allowed perform there, there was scarce mention that blake also got a 3 month ban, simply because the enhancer he was using wasnt on the list yet. Gay could have had silver if the 2 cheats in front of him were not there.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

I wonder if Alex share stuff with his lady, Carolina Kostner who is a world champion and world in number one in figure skating.

Rocking Ave Maria

 

[Benotti69]

Thanks for the link.

Fair Play to him for speaking out. He has every right to be p***** off considering he finished in 4th in the European Championships. Compare his attitude here to Andy Schleck's one when the Contador situation happenned.

Again we see so few competitors speak out about the cheats in their fields.

How many said good riddance to Schleck?

How many cursed Di Gregorio for once again dragging their sport into the gutter?

Well done Rob Heffernan for doing what i expect of an athlete who trains hard and celebrates when the cheats are caught.

 

[the big ring]

Again we see so few competitors speak out about the cheats in their fields.

How many said good riddance to Schleck?

How many cursed Di Gregorio for once again dragging their sport into the gutter?

Well done Rob Heffernan for doing what i expect of an athlete who trains hard and celebrates when the cheats are caught.

To be fair I was not under the impression runners ran for a living?

 

[roundabout]

I'd rather see an athlete not dope.

Passing one test more than the other person and then shouting about probable past cheating doesn't necessarily make one clean.

Especially when the other guy may have only been caught because Ferrari was under extra scrutiny.

 

[hrotha]

When Operación Galgo popped up I was surprised to read many Spanish athletes talking openly about how it was about time those obvious cheats were busted. I wouldn't rule out athletics not having such a deeply ingrained doping culture as cycling.

 

[sniper]

Again we see so few competitors speak out about the cheats in their fields.

How many said good riddance to Schleck?

How many cursed Di Gregorio for once again dragging their sport into the gutter?

Well done Rob Heffernan for doing what i expect of an athlete who trains hard and celebrates when the cheats are caught.

beware, because the state of the sport is such that we must even be skeptical about Heffernan-type of statements.
For instance, when Ricco was busted the second time, we did hear outcry from members of the peloton (including obvious dopers like Cav). And in his recent interview, the doper Pozzato lashed out at Schwazer. And there are plenty more examples (Perreiro dissing Landis, etc.), where non-convicted dopers appear to deliberately be lashing out at busted colleagues just to stage their own 'cleanliness'. I'm not saying Heffernan doesn't sound honest, he actually does. I'm just saying busted dopers are very easy targets for public outrage, and bashing busted dopers might just be the next stage in a reenforced Omerta environment.

Think of the hypocricy when commentators shout that justin gatlin doesn't 'deserve' to be at the olympics. Why, because he's the only one who dopes?

 

[levione]

I'm sorry: "Obvious dopers like Cav."

That's not an opinion, that's an attempt to state fact unsupported by evidence. You slip it into a sentence as though it's a matter of fact. It isn't. That is a libellous statement and you should be extremely careful of making it.

 

[Sigmund]

Again we see so few competitors speak out about the cheats in their fields.

How many said good riddance to Schleck?

How many cursed Di Gregorio for once again dragging their sport into the gutter?

Well done Rob Heffernan for doing what i expect of an athlete who trains hard and celebrates when the cheats are caught.

I think most riders are very carefull to state anything about diuretics, and "strange" drugs because of all the stories about people inadvertently getting such substances in their body. I imagine those athletes who are clean are terrified of returning a positive test for something they cannot explain. I know I would be.

I also think thats why you didnt see many speak out against Contador, DiGregorio and Schleck now. If they get caught for steroids, EPO or bloodtransfusions that another matter. Hence it is much easier to speka out when someone tests positive for those substances.

 

[roundabout]

I know Robert Heffernan from his days as junior and he does'nt live too far away from me and was a only few years ahead of me in the same school. I also know of people who ran with him in his local athletics club in Togher and who told me he would make it to World level. Not once was there ever a mention of a doping link with him and his response to Schwazer's doping is the exact one you would expect from someone running clean and not the stupid one we got from A.Schleck about Contador or Joan Horrach when talking about Di Gregorio.

It's good that you can vouch for him. This sort of thing, while not infallible is better than "he is clean, because he called a caught doper a doper".

 

[sniper]

I'm sorry: "Obvious dopers like Cav."

That's not an opinion, that's an attempt to state fact unsupported by evidence. You slip it into a sentence as though it's a matter of fact. It isn't. That is a libellous statement and you should be extremely careful of making it.

granted, there are more obvious dopers than cav.
but my point is: why did cav lash out at the poor guy Ricco?
A bit cheapish, don't you think? I never heard any other anti-doping sound coming from his mouth.

 

[sniper]

I'm sorry: "Obvious dopers like Cav."

That's not an opinion, that's an attempt to state fact unsupported by evidence. You slip it into a sentence as though it's a matter of fact. It isn't. That is a libellous statement and you should be extremely careful of making it.

granted, there are more obvious dopers than cav.
but my point is: why did cav lash out at poor guy Ricco?
A bit cheapish, don't you think? I never heard any other anti-doping sound coming from his mouth.
so my general point is: busted dopers are easy targets, and I sometimes find the public bashing of busted dopers to be a bit hypocrit.
The best case in point being the100m sprint, where Gatlin this year was used by the media as a type of scapegoat ("he doesn't belong here" / "he'll never be a true athlete again", etc.), whereas the rest of the field is just as juiced up.

 

[Ferminal]

French 5000m runner Hassan Hirt has been sent home from the Olympics. L'Equipe said he tested positive for EPO.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/OLY_ATH_DOPING_HIRT?SECTION=HOME&SITE=AP&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

How many Ivailo Gabrovski's are there left in London?

 

[the big ring]

http://www.muscleweek.com/is-usain-bolt-on-steroids

Usain Bolt’s Track ‘Coach’ is a Steroid Expert

Interestingly (and perhaps damningly) in making a case against Usain Bolt, a fact that is often ignored is that the man who worked with Victor Conte at Balco Labs and later testified against CJ Hunter, Tim Montgomery, Marion Jones, and yes — current 2012 U.S. Olympic sprinter Justin Gatlin– was a man by the name of Angel Heredia. Prior to working at BALCO, Angel Heredia was a national discus champion for Mexico. In the case against BALCO and Graham, he is referred to as ‘Source A’ and his testimony against BALCO athletes in verifying the documents that detailed the drug schedules for those athletes was crucial in obtaining convictions or confessions from those individuals.

But BALCO drug guru Angel Heredia never served a day in prison.

Even more suspiciously, sometime after 2008, Angel Heredia legally changed his name to Angel Hernandez.

Pop Quiz: Why would Angel Heredia change his name to Angel Hernandez?

Answer: Usain Bolt hired the new incarnation of Angel Heredia to become his track ‘coach’ in 2009. Unfortunately for Mr. Heredia, Google Search can be a terrible thing for a man with a past like Angel.

And a small piece of the interview transcript from German publication Der Spiegel’s 2008 interview with Angel Hernandez:

SPIEGEL: Mr. Heredia, will you watch the 100 meter final in Beijing?

Heredia: Of course. But the winner will not be clean. Not even any of the contestants will be clean. (emphasis added)

SPIEGEL: Of eight runners …

Heredia: … eight will be doped.

SPIEGEL: There is no way to prove that.

Heredia: There is no doubt about it. The difference between 10.0 and 9.7 seconds is the drugs.

 

[Ferminal]

Are you sure Heredia is his coach? I think the only link was a bit of **** talking by Alex Ariza?

 

[the big ring]

Are you sure Heredia is his coach? I think the only link was a bit of **** talking by Alex Ariza?

Thought the site looked legit but just read an interview that sounded like a parody? Dunno now

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

RE: Insane Jolt

Nice Research and Performance Benchmarks!

Development - Peak - Decline i.e. natural.

Everything else is just a fantastical delusion.

Guilty as Charged.

Exactly. Plus it should be mentioned, that both athlets made it trou almost two decades. You just don´t see it nowadays b/c the heavy drugs do their wear on the bones, tendons and psyche. Since Maurice Greene (a bodybuilder like Johnson, a clown like Bolt & a doping coach) none of the WR holders had a long career...

The altitude point is interesting. Hine's performance seems a legitimate improvement in the 100m. Smith's record was broken in the 70's in Mexico City with little fanfare. By the late 70's athletes were avoiding altitude as the times always carried an *A in the record books.

They still do carry that "A". Just Lewis said from the beginning he will not cheat out with "easy" records. He stood by his words...

So Bolt goes 'full Wiggins':

I take back what I said about him earlier. While the reasoning that, "If you're working with a totally different physique, you smash records", makes sense, the argument that "hard work" gives you a big advantage over other hard working athletes, doesn't.

Welcome back to reality. I mean it´s clear they always sell a new "science" to make fans believe unreal performances. With Ben Johnson it was necessary to have a big bulk for an explosive start. In reality his roid use improved the backend of his sprints.
Then came Michael Johnson. It was said you need small but powerful steps (exact the opposite to Bolt. LOL. How can people forget this nonsense? It was all powerful drugs that allowed him to prevent slow downs at the end of his runs). His record was as un-natural as ever before (bettering a altitute 19.72 to 19.32 just in time came the home games. ).
And now it´s Bolt: Height, high leg lift BS, big steps and other nonsense. As if the runners before 1990 were dwarfs who couldn´t run.

 

[masking_agent]

If Bolt ever does test positive. There is not a single hope that it will be released.

It will be all covered up, maybe even already.

He is worth too much to athletics and is even more powerful that the IAAF itself now.

Disgraceful really but the truth is this guy could test positive for EPO, HGH, Steroid and he would get away with it.

Very true. His doctors and Jamaican olympic federation have watched and learned from Seoul '88 and how NOT to be like the Canadians. Cover up, shred evidence, and continue to maintain innocence under a shroud of secrecy.

 

[noddy69]

granted, there are more obvious dopers than cav.
but my point is: why did cav lash out at poor guy Ricco?
A bit cheapish, don't you think? I never heard any other anti-doping sound coming from his mouth.
so my general point is: busted dopers are easy targets, and I sometimes find the public bashing of busted dopers to be a bit hypocrit.
The best case in point being the100m sprint, where Gatlin this year was used by the media as a type of scapegoat ("he doesn't belong here" / "he'll never be a true athlete again", etc.), whereas the rest of the field is just as juiced up.

Honestly you cant win around here. If people say nothing about the dopers the answer here is they are doping themselves( I tend to agree). But then when people do start having a go and being vocal,which is what people want, then you get guys like you saying careful there being hypocrits and covering up their own doping......you just cant win with some people.
As for the press on Gatlin, I also agree he should not be there and as he has 2 convictions they were right to have a pop. What was not particularly right was not having a go at another person with a ban in the final. Thats hypocrisy . Not saying nothing about those without bans to their names.

 

[Cloxxki]

And now it´s Bolt: Height, high leg lift BS, big steps and other nonsense. As if the runners before 1990 were dwarfs who couldn´t run.

Well, he is taller than any sub-10 runner as far as I am aware. And height, even if it's maybe a 5% difference of the average sub-10 runner, does help to a degree. It's just impossible to measure, humans being so similar in height, and differing in proportions and makeup. All else being equal, a taller runner will be fast. Say, Bolt has an identicall proportioned twin, 180cm tall. Bolt would be 10% taller in my example, 198cm. If the 180cm version weighs 75kg, then (1.10)³ * 75 gives 99.8kg. (please read up on this before disputing my calc).
The taller bolt would be (1.10)³ as powerful. This makes the start from zero exactly as fast. Let's not go into neuro-mucle signal speed from the gun.
At the small one's top speed, big bolt would have (1.1)² times as much air drag. Leaving him some room to speed up more before all losses add up to his (1.1)³ bigger engine.

Long story short: compare the fastest sprinting domestic cat with a cheetah.
Start will be similar, but as speed increases, the big cat has the advantage.

A race small adult pony (class champ) with proportionate jockey over sufficiently firm soil against a really big horse (class champ) and proportionate jockey.
The existence of gas drag on earth makes taller object go faster. Mass, as power, is a cube of diameter. Drag only a square.

That said, I have a hard time believing Bolt is not on some sort of roids. Due to his absurd talent (I honestly believe that, even after my Armstrong mishap, I've learned) he may not need to risk it as much. Like Lemond. I do prefers Lemond's cleanliness, but all will agree both are genetic freaks who showed early potential.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

If Bolt ever does test positive. There is not a single hope that it will be released.

It will be all covered up, maybe even already.

He is worth too much to athletics and is even more powerful that the IAAF itself now.

Disgraceful really but the truth is this guy could test positive for EPO, HGH, Steroid and he would get away with it.

Exactly. Only a fool would think that the corrupt leaders from 3rd world countries who run the IAAF would ruin their business. They had deep popularity problems since the beginning of the 1990s. Bolt is sent from heaven for them. We all see how difficult and time consuming it is to dethrone a "champion" who is all and everything for a given sports organisation (see Lance Pharmstrong).

Usain Bolt clocked 20.61 at 15. Unless ...

Dream on. The big & corrupted sports bodies love people like you. People like you are their bread and butter.

If you think game fixing and drug use is conspiracy, then why you come here? B/C deep down inside you know that the massive cheating is true. Game fixing articles are on news every week. And if you imagine how difficult it is to proof, it´s only the tip of the icberg that comes out. Same of drug use. We all here saw what happened once governing bodies looked under the carpet: Only BS came out. Nothing good. Who is still trusting those cheaters is beyond help.

To Bolt: We are talking about performance jumps when fully grown up (age 18+). No male athlete ever before bettered their 100/200 times by 0.3 respectively 0.6 seconds in just one year!!! (As a side note: Bolt run 21.7 at age 15)
It´s the same as if Lemaitre comes out next year running a 19.47. Impossible. And he said himself that he don´t know where he could improve more. Add in, that jamaica athlets came to europe, GB and north america in the 80´s b/c of better infrastructure, universities, coaching, surfaces, etc.! And now, when this small country owns the sprinting world since just 4 years, they wanna tell us, they have better facilities than the wealthy countries? No sir. They prefer to stay in no testing land. That´s the sole and only reason.

I am sorry, but we can´t dream big.

What bothers me is that Blake was banned for 3 months for using something not on he list of banned products in 2009 along with 2 other athletes. You get the feeling thats scraping the bottom of the barrel when you see the performances of the jamaicans over the last number of years in the sprints.
One athlete pushing the boundaries, even if it is scarily like Flo Jo back in the day, is a possibility, but the 200mtr final 1-2-3 really is just beyond normal when considering the times they are doing. Blake has surpassed johnsons time from 2006,that time was amazing.
I have to say that I believe there is no way they are doing what they are doing unaided. Its a bit like the Kenyan distance runners, it just isnt right yet people want to believe and so they get away with it.
The jumps in time are just not possible for the amounts of athletes doing them in jamaica. When you reach a peak of fitness your times dont just crumble,your stats show that,it really is just common sense. I think what bothers me most is Bolt. He was doing great times as a junior and it would be great to believe in what he is doing. But with all around him performing as they are then I dont hold much hope of him being a saint. Unfortunate really.

On a final not I am disappointed with the coverage that Blake recieved at the olympics. While Gatlins coverage focused on his tainted past and how Tyson Gay could have a medal if he was not allowed perform there, there was scarce mention that blake also got a 3 month ban, simply because the enhancer he was using wasnt on the list yet. Gay could have had silver if the 2 cheats in front of him were not there.

1+++ It pretty much sums it up.
Only with FloJo i disagree: She and Ben Johnson were the beginning of the end for athletics. From then on it went downhill. FloJo payed a high price for it (and i don´t just mean her deep voice and mustache).

I think GalicHo or BroDeal mentioned this: Once they catch someone in these small countries, they not only catch one, but a whole bunch of guys from the same training group. In this case the Bolt/Blake group. Funny side note; Bolt was the only one not being caught.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Lewis: 1.91 m, 81 kg
Bolt: 1.93, 76 kg.

No big difference in height here. Question: Can, to a certain extend, the W/Kg be applied here too? I am no expert there, but i guess Bolt´s would be much higher than Lewis´.
Add in that Lewis also had extreme long legs & perfect technique (especially seen in his long jumps), he still couldn´t shave 0.3/0.6 secs in one turnaround year once grown up (even not after taking the cough medicine).
In addition, Lewis (& Smith) showed big time potential as early as Bolt, yet they "failed" to make such absurd performance jumps once grown up.
Further; Mentioned by GalicHo (?), why o why aren´t all those tall guys lining up in the sprints? I guess there are plenty of really fast & tall WR´s who didn´t make it to the NFL. Just skip football and become millionaire...

After all: There is no doubt in my mind, Bolt is as big a doper as Armstrong. Everything shows that. The performance jumps, the science excuses to blind the audience, the no testing, the corrupt organisation.
The only positive for Bolt: He is 2 cm taller than the best runner before him (and yet even him couldn´t leave his fingers from some forbidden juice, once some obscure no name tried to steal his spotlight).

Well, he is taller than any sub-10 runner as far as I am aware. And height, even if it's maybe a 5% difference of the average sub-10 runner, does help to a degree. It's just impossible to measure, humans being so similar in height, and differing in proportions and makeup. All else being equal, a taller runner will be fast. Say, Bolt has an identicall proportioned twin, 180cm tall. Bolt would be 10% taller in my example, 198cm. If the 180cm version weighs 75kg, then (1.10)³ * 75 gives 99.8kg. (please read up on this before disputing my calc).
The taller bolt would be (1.10)³ as powerful. This makes the start from zero exactly as fast. Let's not go into neuro-mucle signal speed from the gun.
At the small one's top speed, big bolt would have (1.1)² times as much air drag. Leaving him some room to speed up more before all losses add up to his (1.1)³ bigger engine.

Long story short: compare the fastest sprinting domestic cat with a cheetah.
Start will be similar, but as speed increases, the big cat has the advantage.

A race small adult pony (class champ) with proportionate jockey over sufficiently firm soil against a really big horse (class champ) and proportionate jockey.
The existence of gas drag on earth makes taller object go faster. Mass, as power, is a cube of diameter. Drag only a square.

That said, I have a hard time believing Bolt is not on some sort of roids. Due to his absurd talent (I honestly believe that, even after my Armstrong mishap, I've learned) he may not need to risk it as much. Like Lemond. I do prefers Lemond's cleanliness, but all will agree both are genetic freaks who showed early potential.

 

[Cloxxki]

Lewis: 1.91 m, 81 kg
Bolt: 1.93, 76 kg.

No big difference in height here. Question: Can, to a certain extend, the W/Kg be applied here too? I am no expert there, but i guess Bolt´s would be much higher than Lewis´.
Add in that Lewis also had extreme long legs & perfect technique (especially seen in his long jumps), he still couldn´t shave 0.3/0.6 secs in one turnaround year once grown up (even not after taking the cough medicine).
In addition, Lewis (& Smith) showed big time potential as early as Bolt, yet they "failed" to make such absurd performance jumps once grown up.
Further; Mentioned by GalicHo (?), why o why aren´t all those tall guys lining up in the sprints? I guess there are plenty of really fast & tall WR´s who didn´t make it to the NFL. Just skip football and become millionaire...

After all: There is no doubt in my mind, Bolt is as big a doper as Armstrong. Everything shows that. The performance jumps, the science excuses to blind the audience, the no testing, the corrupt organisation.
The only positive for Bolt: He is 2 cm taller than the best runner before him (and yet even him couldn´t leave his fingers from some forbidden juice, once some obscure no name tried to steal his spotlight).

At what age was Bolt 76kg? are you messing with my head? 193cm only? Then I'm taller even...

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

From the official iaaf homepage.

Edit: Ahh, ok i see. At his homepage he is listed 1.95 and 94 kg. Either iaaf.org is lying or Bolt, or iaaf has older numbers (pre 2008?). Anyway, however we look at it, it makes Bolt even more doubtful: Growing 2 cm once being an adult? Where did i hear that before? Ahh yes, Barry Bonds head size grew reported by DER SPIEGEL over the years. HGH.
Gaining 18 kg and getting faster? Well that reminds me of.... Yeah, Ben Johnson. Steroids.
Add in the Kelli White story: Nowadays even sprinters take Epo...

Well, well, Bolt is a big doper...

 

[levione]

From Professor Anthony Moffat, Emeritus professor of pharmaceutical analysis (that means he knows more than you and me) from UCL has responded to the latest nonsense from serial criminal Victor Conte:

"He (Conte) is wrong to think that the lab cannot detect a drug they have never seen before. They can work out its identity from analytical data. The methods being used will detect and identify any new such drugs even if they do not recognise what they are straight away."

He went on to say tha tthese were the cleanest games in recent times.