Official Thread: Stage 20: Montélimar - Mt. Ventoux 167km

[Mellow Velo]

What a lame stage! And how disrespectful to the mountain!

This Tour course sucked! We saw Andy pulling for his brother and Contador held up because of his overbearing teammate. While Garate steals the show.

Armstrong racing for 3rd on GC, Frank trying to take 3rd on GC, Andy's and above all Contador's wings clipped. How friggin lame!!!

I thought it was apt. Better not to go out on a false high.
After all, this has been a third class tour, all along, has it not?

 

[colwildcat]

No, no, no. LA has ridden himself into form. Just wait. Next year he is dominating all of these young kids. The Boss is BACK with Radio Shack!!!!

Ok seriously, I think you are onto something. I think Frank didn't have it today.

Clearly Frank didn't have the legs today.

But, for the haters of LA to come out and say "he really wasn't that strong today" is ludicrous. How about just giving him some due respect after a strong race and a podium finish? Or, do we have to listen to a month of threads about how "if the TTT wasn't here, he wouldn't have finished third?"

 

[colwildcat]

I've got nothing but respect for Contador, but seriously, who in the hell told him that a hat with the cheesy "shooting pistols with your fingers" on it was cool? That was cheesy 25 years ago. Not sure I get that as a celebration at all, either, but wearing it on a hat? WOW.

 

[BroDeal]

Or, do we have to listen to a month of threads about how "if the TTT wasn't here, he wouldn't have finished third?"

You don't want to hear the truth? On a real TdF course instead of this year's joke he would not ahve finished third. There I said it. The truth.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

It is true that the riders are as responsible for the racing as any course design. If they aren't going to take any risks at all, and rarely attack, even mountain stages can be rendered impotent. But the theory behind having more climbs is that it compels the riders to ride harder, and gives some an opportunity to attack accordingly that isn't as easy on the flats.

I really do think though this cautious and predictable Tour might call for some changes in the sport. Not just more uphill finishes, though that helps bring GC riders out. Nixing radios, or information on time splits might be one remedy. Cutting teams down to 7 riders another. Having a day over the cobbles another. A col that goes over dirt another.

And yet we complain when they use PEDs...

Having longer or shorter distances won't alter PED use. Track sprinters have been busted for doping at a very high rate.

 

[Publicus]

Clearly Frank didn't have the legs today.

But, for the haters of LA to come out and say "he really wasn't that strong today" is ludicrous. How about just giving him some due respect after a strong race and a podium finish? Or, do we have to listen to a month of threads about how "if the TTT wasn't here, he wouldn't have finished third?"

Fair point. He does deserve respect for his podium finish. The problem is that his podium finish is being treated (at least by Versus) is trumping Contador's overall dominance and victory. At least that's what I find the most grating.

 

[slcbiker]

Jeez, call the waahmbulance around here.
This was more interesting then those old Postal/Discovery tours where LA winning was almost a foregone conclusion.

Contador and A Shleck confirm themselves as leaders of the future.
A big new suprise in Wiggins.
A bunch of good younger guys - Nibali, Martin, Kruez, etc.
VandeVelde doing reasonably well after a bad crash.
And an old guy coming off the couch to do reasonably well.

Yes the couse could have been better, but overall this really wasn't that bad.

 

[colwildcat]

You don't want to hear the truth? On a real TdF course instead of this year's joke he would not ahve finished third. There I said it. The truth.

The absence of that stage would have meant another ITT, and would have altered the tactics for everyone. So, unless you somehow magically know how everyone would have done in an ITT without even knowing where it would have been, or how the tactics further would have changed, you have no idea what you're talking about. It's your opinion, nothing more.

 

[DenisMenchov]

You don't want to hear the truth? On a real TdF course instead of this year's joke he would not ahve finished third. There I said it. The truth.

Joke??? Than what about last years`???

Or 2006???

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

I guess this is pointless. With another road and with no TTT, who knows... but it is still the road and the stages we had.

Is it so important that he finishes 3rd or 7th? Point is he came back and rode at a pretty high level if you consider his age and the context of the come back? Sure there's the podium and it's cool and all...

 

[colwildcat]

Fair point. He does deserve respect for his podium finish. The problem is that his podium finish is being treated (at least by Versus) is trumping Contador's overall dominance and victory. At least that's what I find the most grating.

As much as I've been lumped into the "fanboy" camp here, I completely agree with you.

 

[Padeiro]

It is true that the riders are as responsible for the racing as any course design. If they aren't going to take any risks at all, and rarely attack, even mountain stages can be rendered impotent. But the theory behind having more climbs is that it compels the riders to ride harder, and gives some an opportunity to attack accordingly that isn't as easy on the flats.

I really do think though this cautious and predictable Tour might call for some changes in the sport. Not just more uphill finishes, though that helps bring GC riders out. Nixing radios, or information on time splits might be one remedy. Cutting teams down to 7 riders another. Having a day over the cobbles another. A col that goes over dirt another.


Having longer or shorter distances won't alter PED use. Track sprinters have been busted for doping at a very high rate.

My point is that we have people wanting the Ventoux stage to include 3-4 Cat 1 climbs beforehand so that we can have more of a spectacle and see everyone get shattered. How can we expect such stages and think that riders are going to ride clean? There are people complaining because we didn't get massive attacks on a stage like today (or the other mountaintop finishes in this tour) and their remedy is to include several tougher climbs before the final climb. The cyclists are human and we expect them to perform superhumanly on just bread and water. Just sayin'

 

[Murray]

You don't want to hear the truth? On a real TdF course instead of this year's joke he would not ahve finished third. There I said it. The truth.

Your opinion, yes.

THE TRUTH .... not really....

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

I've got nothing but respect for Contador, but seriously, who in the hell told him that a hat with the cheesy "shooting pistols with your fingers" on it was cool? That was cheesy 25 years ago. Not sure I get that as a celebration at all, either, but wearing it on a hat? WOW.

Stop whining, at least he dragged LA to third place.
That should finally win over some respect from the Yankees for Contador

 

[Hugh Januss]

No, no, no. LA has ridden himself into form. Just wait. Next year he is dominating all of these young kids. The Boss is BACK with Radio Shack!!!!

Ok seriously, I think you are onto something. I think Frank didn't have it today.

Not sure I can agree. Admitedly LA's preparation was put off by the collarbone but time is not on your side after age 35 (thus- masters racing). Contador and A Schleck are both young enough that they can get stronger, while LA will only get older. This may have been the self confessed "old fart" 's best and last shot.

 

[labratty]

Stats can be as misleading as hell so don't read too much into it, but this tour is shaping to have the highest number of finishers by a huge marign. So perhaps it just caused less crashes or it really has been much easier.

It does look like it was flatter and easier than most have been to me tho.

87% finishing so far, next highest was 82% back in 2005.
The average for the last 20 years is 74%.

 

[Carl0880]

The absence of that stage would have meant another ITT, and would have altered the tactics for everyone. So, unless you somehow magically know how everyone would have done in an ITT without even knowing where it would have been, or how the tactics further would have changed, you have no idea what you're talking about. It's your opinion, nothing more.

I was about to post this, then the complaint would be that too many ITT km in the race. I made the point back then, The Schlecks still need to buy a special bottle of wine for Cancellara. He made the difference in them only losing 40 seconds instead of 1/5-2 minutes. The other option then no TTT, would have been a flat stage and the last ITT would have been close to the normal 60km size, which dispite a bad day, Lance would have gained some more time in the TT.

The problem is everyone is jumping on Lance's name. If the rider in 3rd would have been Laurens Ten Dam, everyone would have talked about how remarkable of a ride he put in today to maintain the 3rd spot, but since its Lance then alot of people's personal feelings come into play.

Lets talk about who deserves to be praissed for today but are forgotten.

Christopher Le Mevel- Overall he only lost 3 minutes on the group today and will ride into Paris with a Top 10.

Franco Pellizotti- Proved he deserved and respected the Polka Dot jersey by finishing in the Top 10 today. Chapeau!!!!!

Don't forget Stuart O'Grady, many km of pulling the bunch also.

Of course, Garate deserves his kudos. Yes he was in a break, and had the freedom, but he was in a group of 15 and he turned out to be the strongest up the Giant of Provence. He also had a ton more pressure then anyone else in that break to get a result thanks to a horrible Tour up to today for his team.

Was the race one of the best ever? Not even close, but I think instead of spending time on dwellling what didn't happen, I prefer to pay attention to what did happen. The riders do not design the course, they just ride the course that has been laid out. Hopefully Prudhomme will see what went wrong and when they announce the route next year, hopefully we will see something different.

 

[colwildcat]

Stop whining, at least he dragged LA to third place.
That should finally win over some respect from the Yankees for Contador

a) I wasn't whining
b) I have nothing but respect for Contador
c) my post had nothing to do with Lance
d) get a freaking sense of humor

 

[Amsterhammer]

But, for the haters of LA to come out and say "he really wasn't that strong today" is ludicrous. How about just giving him some due respect after a strong race and a podium finish? Or, do we have to listen to a month of threads about how "if the TTT wasn't here, he wouldn't have finished third?"

They can't, because their hatred is so pathologically deep and bitter - and yes, I fear it'll be even more than a month's worth of endless moaning and complaining about what they think 'would have' happened 'if only' this, that, or the other, had been different. It's an utterly pointless exercise, but it will provide the hateboys with an ongoing 'issue' with which to continue LA bashing ad nauseum.

 

[Cobber]

It is true that the riders are as responsible for the racing as any course design. If they aren't going to take any risks at all, and rarely attack, even mountain stages can be rendered impotent. But the theory behind having more climbs is that it compels the riders to ride harder, and gives some an opportunity to attack accordingly that isn't as easy on the flats.

I really do think though this cautious and predictable Tour might call for some changes in the sport. Not just more uphill finishes, though that helps bring GC riders out. Nixing radios, or information on time splits might be one remedy. Cutting teams down to 7 riders another. Having a day over the cobbles another. A col that goes over dirt another.


Having longer or shorter distances won't alter PED use. Track sprinters have been busted for doping at a very high rate.

+1.. good points, Alpe. I was thinking that a stage with cobbles towards the end would be really interesting as well - would make for some exciting attacks towards the end of a stage. A few cobbled hills like in the T of Flanders would be really exciting at the end of a TdF stage!

A few simple changes would also spice up the race next year. Some short, sttep climbs right at the end of a stage, or at the finish not only gives a good launching point for a stage win, but also provides a place where GC riders can pick up a few seconds (I am thinking of this years giro stage that Simon Gerrans won as an example).

 

[Amsterhammer]

Of course, Garate deserves his kudos. Yes he was in a break, and had the freedom, but he was in a group of 15 and he turned out to be the strongest up the Giant of Provence. He also had a ton more pressure then anyone else in that break to get a result thanks to a horrible Tour up to today for his team.

Was the race one of the best ever? Not even close, but I think instead of spending time on dwellling what didn't happen, I prefer to pay attention to what did happen. The riders do not design the course, they just ride the course that has been laid out. Hopefully Prudhomme will see what went wrong and when they announce the route next year, hopefully we will see something different.

Splendid post, the last two paragraphs in particular, the bold most especially!

 

[slcbiker]

There was a stage in N. France back in the Postal days that had a long cobbled section. Hincapie and Ekimov put the hammer down and there were some good sized gaps that day to some of the Spanish and Italian climber teams. People complained about that as well.

Never going to be able please everybody all the time.

 

[colwildcat]

+1.. good points, Alpe. I was thinking that a stage with cobbles towards the end would be really interesting as well - would make for some exciting attacks towards the end of a stage. A few cobbled hills like in the T of Flanders would be really exciting at the end of a TdF stage!

A few simple changes would also spice up the race next year. Some short, sttep climbs right at the end of a stage, or at the finish not only gives a good launching point for a stage win, but also provides a place where GC riders can pick up a few seconds (I am thinking of this years giro stage that Simon Gerrans won as an example).

That is one thing that puzzled me this year, it seems counter productive to have a hard climb, only to have the finish be on a descent where everyone can come back together.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

You could speculate beyond that. What if after going over the Tourmalet, the riders went over the Peyresourde, Aubisque, and up Luz Ardiden? Or Hautecam?

In 1992 there were over 200km of TT distance. In 1981, 254km. What if this year had been like that?

In 1986 the race was over 4,000km, with seven mountain stages, two other very difficult stages, with ten of them over 200km. What if this year were like that?

No one knows.

 

[Cobblestones]

I was about to post this, then the complaint would be that too many ITT km in the race. I made the point back then, The Schlecks still need to buy a special bottle of wine for Cancellara. He made the difference in them only losing 40 seconds instead of 1/5-2 minutes. The other option then no TTT, would have been a flat stage and the last ITT would have been close to the normal 60km size, which dispite a bad day, Lance would have gained some more time in the TT.

They could've made the last ITT hillier, less flat.