Teams & Riders Official Wout Van Aert thread

[Salvarani]

OK so everyone here know I have been one of the biggest wva detractors on the forum the last couple of years.

But I think it's clear that if VDP was here in the best shape he would win, the course just suits his capacities perfectly. Twisty, short explosive efforts repeated a ridiculous number of times over 270km, bad weather, steep climbs but never longer than 30 seconds.

I don't really understand how wva beats a top level VDP. 2nd was about the best he could get and he got it. Maybe he did a bit too much work at some points in the race but not like he made a silly mistake. He is a similar talent but not the same kind of rider as VDP.

In the past seasons I was calling him Belgian pozzato because he was incredibly physically strong but wasted opportunities with defensive and unintelligent racing, poor decision making, lack of initiative. I think however this season he just had a bit of bad luck and faced 2 simply stronger opponents. Van der poel and pogacar both have their best years right now, and with the exception of roubaix, where wva had his flattire, the courses of the other big races favour their repeated accelerations

Great assessment.

 

[Peter von]

I don't get the idea that Van Aert should attack more. It's kinda ridiculous.

I think it’s one of those conclusions people always come to independently of the rider.

There will be specific races where maybe in paper he could have gotten a better result by attacking. But by the same coin we can’t feel his legs and he doesn’t have a helicopter perspective.

 

[meat puppet]

Well, at the very least working less and forcing the Netherlands and VDP chase moves by Belgians would have been ideal. But the Belgian intra-team dynamics made this moot.

Evenepoel tried to make it hard for Wout, sure sure.

 

[Salvarani]

I don't get the idea that Van Aert should attack more. It's kinda ridiculous.

He's not just gonna be allowed to ride away. Van Aert responds quite a bit to moves, and drives the pace qutie a bit more than MvdP. It's not as if others will allow Van Aert to just ride away. Everyone is completely dead at the end, so it's not like that proves Van Aert should be going solo earlier.

If anything he should be doing less and use the Belgian team more to tire MvdP out.

I think the key is also using his team more, but we all know the politics of the national team. Yesterday Benoot was pacing the group with Van Aert on the wheel, while Remco and Styuven were sitting further down seemingly just doing their own thing. Had they decided to work for Van Aert and had those three been on the front of the group together, controlling for as long as they can with an even pace, maybe things play out differently. Instead of Remco doing his attacks, Styuven doing nothing and Benoot spent from working alone on the front.

 

[The fridge in the blue trees]

I think the team did well. It's just that Van der Poel was the strongest. Don't think controlling with Stuyven-Benoot-Remco would have changed anything, when Mathieu goes, it's still over. What they could have tried is send Benoot ahead at some point? Right little group... but that was unlikely to work, one of Pogacar, Pedersen was always going to jump. No, think the team worked well, Wout was there, Van der Poel was just too strong.

 

[Peter von]

I think the key is also using his team more, but we all know the politics of the national team. Yesterday Benoot was pacing the group with Van Aert on the wheel, while Remco and Styuven were sitting further down seemingly just doing their own thing. Had they decided to work for Van Aert and had those three been on the front of the group together, controlling for as long as they can with an even pace, maybe things play out differently. Instead of Remco doing his attacks, Styuven doing nothing and Benoot spent from working alone on the front.

At least Phillipsen owned the fact that he feels greater loyalty to his team mates for the rest of the year than he does towards his compatriots. And got a lot of that dirty ol' Crit money.
They were on the back foot in the early laps, maybe they should have been more aggressive on the early laps, tried to get Remco and Benoot in a break so MVP had to chase?
But then again Wout vs. MVP is probably better odds than Benoot vs. Skjelmose or Pogi vs. Remco.

At the end of the day they helped create a decent situation where Wout was only the second best in the world on the day. At the end of the day in cycling you sometimes take those odds because they are the best you are going to get.

 

[Red Rick]

At least Phillipsen owned the fact that he feels greater loyalty to his team mates for the rest of the year than he does towards his compatriots. And got a lot of that dirty ol' Crit money.

Philipsen said that?

Great reason to never select him again until Abu Dhabi or another meme flat Euros parcours.

 

[Red Rick]

I think the key is also using his team more, but we all know the politics of the national team. Yesterday Benoot was pacing the group with Van Aert on the wheel, while Remco and Styuven were sitting further down seemingly just doing their own thing. Had they decided to work for Van Aert and had those three been on the front of the group together, controlling for as long as they can with an even pace, maybe things play out differently. Instead of Remco doing his attacks, Styuven doing nothing and Benoot spent from working alone on the front.

Not sure it's all politics, but also lack of communication. Remco can't yell into the radio that he's behind a split - again. I think it was predetermined team roels that Benoot would stick with Van Aert and Stuyven would stick with Evenepoel.

The team coach is still a problem though, just by the fact that he brought Philipsen to begin with.

 

[Peter von]

Philipsen said that?

Great reason to never select him again until Abu Dhabi or another meme flat Euros parcours.

it was a whole thing in the media.

link

Personally I think he just fell into one of those traps reporters like to put out in front of athletes. It was not like Phillipsen called a presser to announce it or anything, he was just in the middle of the Tour and MVP was working his but off to set up JP strage wins, of cause JP is having a hard time finding words that will satisfy everyone.

Also Phillipsen as it turned out was 100% correct, he was not chasing down anyone yesterday.

 

[Salvarani]

Not sure it's all politics, but also lack of communication. Remco can't yell into the radio that he's behind a split - again. I think it was predetermined team roels that Benoot would stick with Van Aert and Stuyven would stick with Evenepoel.

The team coach is still a problem though, just by the fact that he brought Philipsen to begin with.

I think communication plays a big role as well. Probably why Van Aert also said he would have liked to have the radio. It would benefit them, as they have the numbers already.
I like worlds not having it though. It makes it a litte bit more unpredictable and a great/strong rider from a smaller nation or lack of strong teammates to have bigger a chance at winning. The individual skill of the rider becomes a lot more important. Ability, tactics and positioning. Probably why Sagan managed to win three in a row, with things aligning just perfectly.

I think that the predetermined roles for everyone is to their detriment, but I guess it is just to make everyone happy. It becomes a bit comical to watch though.

 

[Red Rick]

it was a whole thing in the media.

link

Personally I think he just fell into one of those traps reporters like to put out in front of athletes. It was not like Phillipsen called a presser to announce it or anything, he was just in the middle of the Tour and MVP was working his but off to set up JP strage wins, of cause JP is having a hard time finding words that will satisfy everyone.

Also Phillipsen as it turned out was 100% correct, he was not chasing down anyone yesterday.

"I'm sorry for what I said Wout, I just meant that I will be DNF 2 laps before Mat even starts attacking, but please bring me along as 3rd leader"

 

[Blanco]

Well, at the very least working less and forcing the Netherlands and VDP chase moves by Belgians would have been ideal. But the Belgian intra-team dynamics made this moot.

Evenepoel tried to make it hard for Wout, sure sure.

You could force them/him alright, but not the way they rode. Netherlands didn't existed much though, only significant thing they did is to bring Mathieu back after that protest. When the laps started Van Der Poel was pretty much on his own, Kooij and Van Baarle were hanging at the back all the time.
What they could do is to send riders in the attack all the time, like Denmark and Italians did with far less firepower then Belgians. Ok, Remco tried, but he wasn't super good and rivals were attentive, but what stopped them for sending Benoot, Stuyven and Van Hooydonck? Others would have to chase, but didn't had much men, meaning top dogs would have to do it themselves. This will probably led to situation where Van Der Poel would strike and bring the strongest guys with him. This way Belgium would have the numbers and try to tire him out more, that way maybe Van Aert could stick with him and try to beat him in the sprint.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

to be fair, reading the comments from Benoot and Stuyven, they didn't really have it in them to attack. They said the pace was mental the minute Denmark started pushing on the circuit.

 

[Valv.Piti]

to be fair, reading the comments from Benoot and Stuyven, they didn't really have it in them to attack. They said the pace was mental the minute Denmark started pushing on the circuit.

Yeah well they pretty much eliminated Asgreen as well on that account. Holy smokes was he bad.

I think the Belgians rode a nice race considering Remco wasn't really suited for this type of race. If he was better, this one woulda been a lot more dangerous. Benoot just ended up pacing in order to keep Bettiol in striking distance which I think was fine. What were they supposed to? Attack? Couldn't really see them doing that much, and Mathieu had Dylan in the group who admittedly look done the entire race almost. But he could probably have kept stuff like that under control.

 

[Red Rick]

to be fair, reading the comments from Benoot and Stuyven, they didn't really have it in them to attack. They said the pace was mental the minute Denmark started pushing on the circuit.

They used Stuyven and Benoot to control a lot, which only helped MvdP

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Yeah well they pretty much eliminated Asgreen as well on that account. Holy smokes was he bad.

I think the Belgians rode a nice race considering Remco wasn't really suited for this type of race. If he was better, this one woulda been a lot more dangerous. Benoot just ended up pacing in order to keep Bettiol in striking distance which I think was fine. What were they supposed to? Attack? Couldn't really see them doing that much, and Mathieu had Dylan in the group who admittedly look done the entire race almost. But he could probably have kept stuff like that under control.

NL also didn't have much luck. Van Dijke looked decent until he crashed out. Hoole took out Eenkhoorn, and according to Koos Eenkhoorn had good legs up until then. So that all didnt help.

Luckily this race course meant it was always gonna end up in a 1vs1. There's not much team play you can do on such a route

 

[Red Rick]

NL also didn't have much luck. Van Dijke looked decent until he crashed out. Hoole took out Eenkhoorn, and according to Koos Eenkhoorn had good legs up until then. So that all didnt help.

Luckily this race course meant it was always gonna end up in a 1vs1. There's not much team play you can do on such a route

But there are things you can do, and waiting isn't one of them. I was thinking before the race it's probably much better to get your lower ranking domestiques in the break. Then you don't have to go as nuts in the first laps, when the race is probably fastest too.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Yesterday he (and everyone) was too weak compared to MVP. He needs to use his team better when he is closer to MVP in race condition. Yesterday, even If Belgium rode the perfect race, MVP would still win because he was far better than the rest. He would win almost with 2 and half minutes if he didn't crash.
Now, I would like to see WVA in lombardia with a perfect preparation. Of course, it will difficult to win for him because Pogacar and probably Remco will be there but he should try.

 

[theyoungest]

NL also didn't have much luck. Van Dijke looked decent until he crashed out. Hoole took out Eenkhoorn, and according to Koos Eenkhoorn had good legs up until then. So that all didnt help.

Luckily this race course meant it was always gonna end up in a 1vs1. There's not much team play you can do on such a route

Let's be real here, Van Dijke and Eenkhoorn wouldn't have done much at the pointy end of the race. They're not suddenly at the level of the second tier Belgians like Benoot and Van Hooydonck.

I think the team did well. It's just that Van der Poel was the strongest. Don't think controlling with Stuyven-Benoot-Remco would have changed anything, when Mathieu goes, it's still over. What they could have tried is send Benoot ahead at some point? Right little group... but that was unlikely to work, one of Pogacar, Pedersen was always going to jump. No, think the team worked well, Wout was there, Van der Poel was just too strong.

They had the strongest team on paper, but they didn't really use it. Yes, they controlled the race, but if you have numbers against riders who are alone or just with two, there has to be a smarter way to race. Evenepoel tried it, but of course they're not going to let him ride. But if you let Evenepoel attack and then if he's caught immediately Van Aert goes, maybe that's the way to kill Pogi and Van der Poel. Because 1v1 Van Aert always loses against Van der Poel, that much should be clear by now.

 

[yaco]

Belgium rode like Ineos used to ride in the Classics - Have a bunch of strong guys controlling the race, instead of firing them up the road and making other teams chase.

 

[hayneplane]

You would have to be a bit cruel to criticise Wout for yesterday. He rode very well, was the aggressor several times, but ultimately nobody had the capacity to hold onto MVDP when he engaged turbo mode.

 

[Ripper]

I think overall he's going to be pretty disappointed with his season. I would be surprised if he doesn't make some changes

 

[Volderke]

I read some things here like Wva doesn’t have the watts and mvdp is always better…
I’m sure Wva has as many watts but he doesn’t have peak watt acceleration like mvdp, or maybe it’s just even peak watt/kg acceleration (I think mvdp has 2-3 kg less, that’s 0.5 W/kg on those 1000W accelerations on the climbs).
And Wva not being better… just give them a duitama parcours and mvdp will get crushed. Ofcourse, the problem will be that guys like pogacar take over on those parcours.

 

[Red Rick]

I read some things here like Wva doesn’t have the watts and mvdp is always better…
I’m sure Wva has as many watts but he doesn’t have peak watt acceleration like mvdp, or maybe it’s just even peak watt/kg acceleration (I think mvdp has 2-3 kg less, that’s 0.5 W/kg on those 1000W accelerations on the climbs).
And Wva not being better… just give them a duitama parcours and mvdp will get crushed. Ofcourse, the problem will be that guys like pogacar take over on those parcours.

It's just pretty hard to make a parcours that would make Van Aert the #1 favorite over anyone else in 2023.

His edge over the competition was actually much bigger in 2020 and 2021 on certain routes, but I think that's gone. I don't think Van Aert would get 2nd in Imola or Tokyo anymore.

 

[Red Rick]

According to Bakelants, WvA is likely to do the WC gravel in Veneto later this year

"Kans is groot dat Wout van Aert het WK Gravel rijdt"

Staat Wout van Aert zondag 8 oktober aan de start van het WK Gravel in Italiaanse Veneto? Volgens Jan Bakelants, die geregeld met Van Aert traint, lijkt het daar wel op. “Ik denk dat de kans groot is dat hij zich aan het WK Gravel gaat wagen”, zei de oud-prof in de podcast Wuyts en […]

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