Oh dear Valverde!

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Apr 7, 2009
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You guys are trying to read way too much into Valverde, Indurain, etc.

Yeah, doping sucks. Armstrong never admitted it. But the fact is that he still won the races. These guys are saying from a sporting point of view, Armstrong won. At least hey have the guts to say that instead of the safe, party line.

And after what happened to Levi, why would they do/say anything to lose their paychecks?

I'm sure most of you would be willing to give up your jobs by admitting guilt, even when you know all of your co-workers are doing the same thing. Yeah, right?

Let's not hold the cyclists to such a high standard, but the powers that be that didn't have the guts to do anything about it as their pockets got bigger and bigger.
 
TubularBills said:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/10/news/horner-says-he-never-saw-doping-on-bruyneel-teams_261673

I have no doubt (caveate | pure speculation).

Last year with the slow payments, etc. and the political (climate) of the time...

That riders on RS were given sweetheart deals, i.e. Talk Sugar.

Horner took the deal and two things happened, he got to ride in the Tour and he put himself in a favorable position for a 2013 contract.

The current BS is simply him assuring and following through on his 'commitment."

$ers & senseless. Dollars win for the family man?

Any other explanation for another 'nice guy' supporting omerta is ludicrous.

All of the pros stating they are shocked and were unaware of the stench, rode in the stench, held their breath and held onto a paycheck.

The sport is and was (1998 to the present) men in spandex diapers riding bikes. WWF. NFL. MLB. etc.

Say the right thing, get paid.

'Play' the 'game.'

It is a shame.

I miss the Lemond years and want them back.

Just substitute 'Valverde, 'Sanchez', 'Wiggins', 'Schleck', 'Froome', 'Contador' ad infinitum for 'Horner' above and you have the current state-of-the-sport.

~ Sir Rabobank
 
moonstation2000 said:
What do we really expect from these guys? Are they to now turn themselves in just because Armstrong got busted and some US riders were forced to confess?
If not, then at least they should STFU.


moonstation2000 said:
It's great for us fans to think about the riders getting clean and all the dopers facing serious consequences; but wouldn't that leave us with 10 riders next year? Not to mention all the DS's, team doctors and corrupt officials. There'd be no sport left!
If that's what it takes, so be it. "There'd be no sport left", you say? Wake up for crap's sake! It's not a sport now, as things currently sit.
 
Jul 4, 2011
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Some of these guys just need to shut up.

The attitude towards this is a big part of the problem. They really believe they didn't do anything wrong.
 
mwbyrd said:
I'm sure most of you would be willing to give up your jobs by admitting guilt, even when you know all of your co-workers are doing the same thing. Yeah, right?
actually I think these pros should have given up their jobs by refusing to dope in the first place. But given that we've already selected out the ethical ones by letting the sport get so dirty there's no place for honesty, it's not surprising that the ones who are left over are unwilling to come clean.

If we accept "well the guy next to me was doing it" as an excuse then a lot of (other) criminal professions suddenly become justifiable.
 
Jun 13, 2009
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the asian said:
Again, no surprises. Most of the doper spit out BS like this, the more smarter dopers stay silent.

Only clean riders or repentant dopers speak out against Armstrong.
Agreed. The last thing I want if for these guys to be silent. I want them to let us all know where they stand. Makes it easier to spot the cheats. Not that we didn't know about valv.piti.

Also, if I'm a tester, then I know who I'm putting at the top of my targeted testing list. With these guys saying stuff like this, you don't even need to refer to the bio passport to know who to test.
 
131313 said:
While I sure some will see this as xenophobia, the fact is that there's a pervading attitude in Spanish cycling that mimics Ferrari's point of view: it's only cheating when you test positive. From Indurain on down to these guys, that attitude is clear as day. I don't know what can be down to change that way of thinking, because numerous doping scandals in Spain certainly haven't changed the outlook of the riders, fans or those involved with the federation.

The Spanish are hardly alone. Boonen's comments on USADA and whole LA affair sounded pretty much the same, and the Belgium federation seems about as interested in clean competition as Spain. Bottom line, Euro racing is about 1 step removed from the WWF, and as long as the national feds are the ones handling drug testing and managing results, that's not going to change.
Unfortunately, in Italy it's the same. However, the recent investigations by NAS and actions of CONI are beginning to alter this perception.

I have my theory on this; that is why in these countries a level of corruption and being more "flexible" about the rules is different, at least in common mores, than let's say in the Anglo-Saxon world, but it goes beyond the scope of this forum.
 
rhubroma said:
I have my theory on this; that is why in these countries a level of corruption and being more "flexible" about the rules is different, at least in common mores, than let's say in the Anglo-Saxon world, but it goes beyond the scope of this forum.
strangely enough it was an Anglo-Saxon rider (LA) under Anglo-Saxon rules & Anglo-Saxon sponsors that pulled the biggest scam in cycling history......
 
hfer07 said:
strangely enough it was an Anglo-Saxon rider (LA) under Anglo-Saxon rules & Anglo-Saxon sponsors that pulled the biggest scam in cycling history......
But of course. I wasn't implying that Anglo-Saxon culture is superior, if anything, for the reason you indicate, just more hypocritical.

At the same time, however, the Spanish Armada's open hostility to basic reason and intelligence is dismaying.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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mwbyrd said:
At least hey have the guts to say that instead of the safe, party line.

And after what happened to Levi, why would they do/say anything to lose their paychecks?
Do you not see your own stupidity?
 
May 14, 2010
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131313 said:
While I sure some will see this as xenophobia, the fact is that there's a pervading attitude in Spanish cycling that mimics Ferrari's point of view: it's only cheating when you test positive. From Indurain on down to these guys, that attitude is clear as day. I don't know what can be down to change that way of thinking, because numerous doping scandals in Spain certainly haven't changed the outlook of the riders, fans or those involved with the federation.

The Spanish are hardly alone. Boonen's comments on USADA and whole LA affair sounded pretty much the same, and the Belgium federation seems about as interested in clean competition as Spain. Bottom line, Euro racing is about 1 step removed from the WWF, and as long as the national feds are the ones handling drug testing and managing results, that's not going to change.
+1. The entire cycling establishment - those who set the standards and guide the culture, especially at the top - is corrupt through and through. And at the very pointy end of this bunch, its very tippy tip, is none other than cycling's patron-saint-to-be and living god, Eddy Merckx.

Who knows what these guys get up to - betting against their own teams, sabotage, promoting certain teams and riders while taking down others, buying and selling races, and, of course, doping networks. And from there it starts to get ugly - bribery, smuggling, money laundering, involvement with organized crime . . . the fun never stops.

The only way to reform it is to destroy the UCI and the national federations and start from the top. Coordinate national police investigations, as was being done with the Armstrong investigation, and clean the whole thing out.

rhubroma said:
Unfortunately, in Italy it's the same. However, the recent investigations by NAS and actions of CONI are beginning to alter this perception.

I have my theory on this; that is why in these countries a level of corruption and being more "flexible" about the rules is different, at least in common mores, than let's say in the Anglo-Saxon world, but it goes beyond the scope of this forum.
Tell it. We're all ears. This is as good a place as any.
 
Apr 26, 2010
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spalco said:
Sickening. What a scumbag.
lol - that's pretty ironic, considering the bloke in your avatar still hasn't ever appologised for his past antics, and unlike Basso and Millar, doesn't seem to believe he needs to either..
 
Jul 19, 2009
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hfer07 said:
strangely enough it was an Anglo-Saxon rider (LA) under Anglo-Saxon rules & Anglo-Saxon sponsors that pulled the biggest scam in cycling history......
http://www.dopeology.org/statistics/people/

goto incidents by nationality.

There is nothing racist whatsoever about stating a plain fact that doping culture in pro cycling is the most ingrained and accepted in Italy, Spain, France and Belgium.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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rhubroma said:
Unfortunately, in Italy it's the same. However, the recent investigations by NAS and actions of CONI are beginning to alter this perception.

I have my theory on this; that is why in these countries a level of corruption and being more "flexible" about the rules is different, at least in common mores, than let's say in the Anglo-Saxon world, but it goes beyond the scope of this forum.
I'm not sure if it's the same.
in italy, even doping in soccer has been an issue and iirc Juve has even been punished for doping. (but i could be wrong).
at any rate, as you also indicate, italian authorities don't seem very afraid (anymore) to go after and castigate top teams/athletes, whether for doping or for gambling. of course, it could and should still be much better also in italy, but just imagine Spanish authorities going after real madrid or barca.
not in this century.
 
Marcuccio said:
lol - that's pretty ironic, considering the bloke in your avatar still hasn't ever appologised for his past antics, and unlike Basso and Millar, doesn't seem to believe he needs to either..
trus, that's a bit hypocritical of me, I don't deny I have my biases too. However the differenxe is that Vino knows when to keep hos mouth shut. He never made any excuses but he also doesn't spout bull**** like that.
 
He's clearly still a spotted leopard, as if we didn't know after La Vuelta.
Sure makes it hard to sell the: "peloton is now clean" anglo-mantra.

Does seem that the Spaniards are prepared to go that extra mile in defence of Lance.
Kind of odd seeing that he took out a UCI "hit" on one of their own.
No love at home for Iban?
 
Aug 25, 2012
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purcell said:
To be honest. No.

Over the last few days I have just completely given up hope.
I'm with you. Valverde definitly wearing a black hat. Not many good guys speaking out. Forget the code of silence....maybe there arn't any good guys left.
 
Sport v. Entertainment

I think the Spanish audience and their top cyclists consider
the entertainment value seriously.
Cf. gored bullfighters.
Those that have entertained them in a heroic manner
remain in their hearts - and the doping aspect gets minimised.


Valverde, Samu, Contador JRod are amongst of the most entertaining
cyclists on the road.

Lance Armstrong was a powerful spectacle if nothing else.
(I could never root for him though.)

Something must remain of that entertaining spectacle - even if it is
just Liggett-commentated YouTube stages.
Watching Landis again on his asterisk stage is highly entertaining even if it
was ethically indefensible

That's the mood I am getting from the Spanish guys and I can just about understand it.
 

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