Oh dear Valverde!

[No_Balls]

Edit. 10 char

 

[blackcat]

I used the term 'ex' very liberally, in the sense 'proven' to have doped. I have no doubts they continue to dope.

Rodriguez is imo another doper.

ex.

Kristin

 

[rhubroma]

Tell it. We're all ears. This is as good a place as any.

To cut to the short, centuries of Catholicism and decades of fascism. Reflections like those of Valverde, Indurain and Sanchez are spoken in the name of that incurable southern mentality, which lives on omertà, titles and honorifics and has never been contaminated by that virus of civic values that has liberated the plebs since the French Revolution.

Centuries of the Holy See has held an unwavering influence over these societies, which were then further brutalized under fascism; creating a binding alliance between servile plebs and indolent barons with the blessings of the upper clergy and party members. These societies are still paying the consequences for this arrangement.

 

[Amsterhammer]

To cut to the short, centuries of Catholicism and decades of fascism. Reflections like those of Valverde, Indurain and Sanchez are spoken in the name of that incurable southern mentality, which lives on omertà, titles and honorifics and has never been contaminated by that virus of civic values that has liberated the plebs since the French Revolution.

Centuries of the Holy See has held an unwavering influence over these societies, which were then further brutalized under fascism; creating a binding alliance between servile plebs and indolent barons with the blessings of the upper clergy and party members. These societies are still paying the consequences for this arrangement.

What an entirely unexpected little gem of academic insight to stumble across in here, of all places! Cheers, Rhub.

 

[coinneach]

What an entirely unexpected little gem of academic insight to stumble across in here, of all places! Cheers, Rhub.

+2 Brilliant!! I would every poster here was so accurate and informative.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

To cut to the short, centuries of Catholicism and decades of fascism. Reflections like those of Valverde, Indurain and Sanchez are spoken in the name of that incurable southern mentality, which lives on omertà, titles and honorifics and has never been contaminated by that virus of civic values that has liberated the plebs since the French Revolution.

Centuries of the Holy See has held an unwavering influence over these societies, which were then further brutalized under fascism; creating a binding alliance between servile plebs and indolent barons with the blessings of the upper clergy and party members. These societies are still paying the consequences for this arrangement.

You are Samuel Huntington and I claim my £5.

Let's not forget the post-Franco transition that enshrined collective amnesia and condemned any attempt to look at past transgressions.

 

[rhubroma]

You are Samuel Huntington and I claim my £5.

Let's not forget the post-Franco transition that enshrined collective amnesia and condemned any attempt to look at past transgressions.

Samuel Huntington!?

Good grief, no!

 

[rhubroma]

You are Samuel Huntington and I claim my £5.

Let's not forget the post-Franco transition that enshrined collective amnesia and condemned any attempt to look at past transgressions.

In Italy it was the Christian Democrats with the blessings of the Pope, the US and even the 'reformed' fascists, in an effort to marginalize the communists, which led the Boot for half a century down the path of the 'redemptive market.'

In the end it only begot the criminal ‘cementification’ of Italy's beautiful territory, released the ferocity of the various mafias that continue to reign by forced payments and terror over entire regions (while robbing from the fiscal budget billions annually), the Northern League, tangentopoli, Berlusconi, fascist revisionism and the monstrous stranglehold of the Catholic prelates. Such collective forces have driven Italian society into the dreadful situation it finds itself today. Even the communists had to capitulate after 89 and 91, to basically subsume themselves within what has by now become a rather debilitated and insipid reformed opposition and social-democratic movement.

 

[Amsterhammer]

In Italy it was the Christian Democrats with the blessings of the Pope, the US and even the 'reformed' fascists, in an effort to marginalize the communists, which led the Boot for half a century down the path of the 'redemptive market.'

In the end it only begot the criminal ‘cementification’ of Italy's beautiful territory, released the ferocity of the various mafias that continue reign by forced payments and terror over entire regions (while robbing from the fiscal budget billions annually), the Northern League, tangentopoli, Berlusconi, fascist revisionism and the monstrous stranglehold of the Catholic prelates. Such collective forces have driven Italian society into the dreadful situation it finds itself in today.

Apropos Italian society Rhub, I left a question for you in the cafe.

 

[SeriousSam]

The old guys need to go. Simple. Bring on the young new guys and lets see some real racing.

Yeah, doping will disappear for sure. Only the old guys are smart enough to to realize that it's in their interest to use PEDs.

 

[rainman]

To cut to the short, centuries of Catholicism and decades of fascism. Reflections like those of Valverde, Indurain and Sanchez are spoken in the name of that incurable southern mentality, which lives on omertà, titles and honorifics and has never been contaminated by that virus of civic values that has liberated the plebs since the French Revolution.

Centuries of the Holy See has held an unwavering influence over these societies, which were then further brutalized under fascism; creating a binding alliance between servile plebs and indolent barons with the blessings of the upper clergy and party members. These societies are still paying the consequences for this arrangement.

Interesting and has a lot to do with it. But more recently, when much of post war Europe and Spain in particular was poverty stricken, cycling and football offered a way out, and if winning meant using, bring it on. Those countries are affluent now but some things dont change.

 

[Der Effe]

Valverde, Indurain and Contador, what a bunch of utter d*ckheads. I've always been a fan of Contador but, oh dear, what a piece of s*it he actually is. On the other hand, it shows what the entire world already thought of Spain's sport culture. It's rotten to the core.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

In Italy it was the Christian Democrats with the blessings of the Pope, the US and even the 'reformed' fascists, in an effort to marginalize the communists, which led the Boot for half a century down the path of the 'redemptive market.'

In the end it only begot the criminal ‘cementification’ of Italy's beautiful territory, released the ferocity of the various mafias that continue to reign by forced payments and terror over entire regions (while robbing from the fiscal budget billions annually), the Northern League, tangentopoli, Berlusconi, fascist revisionism and the monstrous stranglehold of the Catholic prelates. Such collective forces have driven Italian society into the dreadful situation it finds itself today. Even the communists had to capitulate after 89 and 91, to basically subsume themselves within what has by now become a rather debilitated and insipid reformed opposition and social-democratic movement.

I don't know enough about post-1945 Italian politics to comment - although ironically it does challenge to a certain extent Putnam's somewhat rosy view of civil society in Italy and its positive effects.

Paradoxically, for such a dysfunctional state such as Italy at least CONI and the anti-doping agencies appear to function with a greater level of success than in other states such as the UK

 

[TrackCynic]

Living in the US, I take issue with people saying Southern Europeans are bigger "cheaters". You've just got to look at the whole culture in the US around "training" juniors for (American) football, baseball, basketball and swimming. You see 16, 17 year old kids here who look like they've been hitting the gym since they were 10; lantern-jawed, ripped, huge and roided-up. I do not see this "bigger and stronger is better" attitude in any other country in such an endemic way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steroid_use_in_American_football

 

[Benotti69]

I don't know enough about post-1945 Italian politics to comment - although ironically it does challenge to a certain extent Putnam's somewhat rosy view of civil society in Italy and its positive effects.

Paradoxically, for such a dysfunctional state such as Italy at least CONI and the anti-doping agencies appear to function with a greater level of success than in other states such as the UK

It is a minor miracle that CONI are actually functioning as an anti-doping agency even without their success to date.

Italy is beyond description.

 

[skimazk]

especially when you consider CONI payed Conconi and his assistant ferrari 3 million euros to prepare athletes for the 84 olympics and later IOC paid an additional 2Million for them to develop an EPO test(1993), the money was used to test EPO on mostly italian athletes and when a report about it surfaced it dissapeared @ coni directors desk

 

[martinvickers]

I think the Spanish audience and their top cyclists consider
the entertainment value seriously.
Cf. gored bullfighters.
Those that have entertained them in a heroic manner
remain in their hearts - and the doping aspect gets minimised.


Valverde, Samu, Contador JRod are amongst of the most entertaining
cyclists on the road.

Lance Armstrong was a powerful spectacle if nothing else.
(I could never root for him though.)

Something must remain of that entertaining spectacle - even if it is
just Liggett-commentated YouTube stages.
Watching Landis again on his asterisk stage is highly entertaining even if it
was ethically indefensible

That's the mood I am getting from the Spanish guys and I can just about understand it.

There was a rather highbrow documentary done a few years ago about attitudes to Maradona - both the 'Hand of god', and the cocaine bust.

It noted that in Argentina, as in some other parts of South America, there was a long ingrained culture of admiration for "the bandit", the person who thumbed their nose at the authorities, but was loved, and loved, the people. 'Zorro', 'Che' In this culture, cheating was not only forgivable, but actively laudable if it was to get one over "the authorities", "the establishment" who were universally seen as corrupt and anti-people.

Meanwhile in England, similar "bandit" figures had been relegated to the fringes. Yes, they had "Robin hood" (and even he was 'loyal; to richard I over the 'usurper' John, but most of the classical English 'heroes' - Arthur, Henry V, Nelson, Churchill - were 'establishment' to their very bootstraps. Couple that with the long held idea that sport "built" character, and there was a deep subliminal culture of 'disgust' with cheating.

Of course, at the Celtic fringe, where attraction to English 'authority' was much weaker, attitudes were more flexible.

the differences of course, all came to a head in Maradona.

Now, let's start from the obvious. People are people. There's nothing genetic about attitudes to cheating, it's all 'learnt' behaviour. But it's also true that in Spain, as in some other european countries, 'getting one over' the establishment is a laudable thing. It''s a culture to be broken down.

Mind you, it used to be the same in France - till a awhole lot of riders were put in prison, even only briefly, over Festina - the lack of high profile french success on the roads outside of Virenque (hint'hint) is quite likely down to a french peleton that feared the jailhouse. The Italians seem to be going down the same road now.

And lo, the French and italian papers get on board with the manifesto - cultures do change - but the need a stimulus to change. and the King himself defending doper ain't that...

 

[arjanh]

Why not start a new thread: Name a clean rider from Spain? Do you know anyone?

Sastre is Spanish, isn't he? And Freire, perhaps?

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

You do have to wonder about Valverde in the Vuelta this year, his performance was on a completely different level to anything else he had done all year and this was after a long hard season which began in january and a month after completing the TDF. Obviously we all know the guy is doping and always has, the question is, why wasn't he able to show that level of ability earlier in the year? The obvious conclusion is that it's so much easier to get away with it in Spain. Same goes for Rodriguez who was on a different planet to the already excellent form he had shown in the Giro, not to mention whatever Contador got up to on the rest day.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Valverde also on the race less - train more bandwagon:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/valverde-to-cut-back-on-racing-ahead-of-tour-challenge

 

[noddy69]

Valverde also on the race less - train more bandwagon:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/valverde-to-cut-back-on-racing-ahead-of-tour-challenge

And trail blazing prologues no less. Nothing to see here, just a guy training really hard and its paying off. Really if these guys dont get caught,,,,ie j rod and valverde then its really game over. Yes Contador has form but at least he has stayed consistent over the years. These two are now sprinting upmountains and winning prologues. FFS

 

[Libertine Seguros]

And trail blazing prologues no less. Nothing to see here, just a guy training really hard and its paying off. Really if these guys dont get caught,,,,ie j rod and valverde then its really game over. Yes Contador has form but at least he has stayed consistent over the years. These two are now sprinting upmountains and winning prologues. FFS

Really? Really? You're playing up the card that Valverde winning prologues and sprinting up mountains is an inconsistency for him? Notwithstanding that this was the Ruta del Sol so the guys he was out-TTing were guys like Spilak and sprinters, not Cancellara and Wiggins, the guy has always been about hill finishes and winning the sprint of the guys left at the top of the mountain, and has also always been pretty useful in a short TT.

7th, País Vasco 2003, stage 5b (13km)
9th, País Vasco 2004, stage 6 (9km) - first 6 there? Julich, Hamilton, Rogers, Menchov, Leipheimer & Mayo
2nd, País Vasco 2006, stage 6 (24km)
2nd, Romandie 2006, prologue (3,4km)
7th, Dauphiné 2006, prologue (4,1km)
5th, Tour de France 2006, prologue (7,1km) - Wiggins was 16th, for the record
1st, Vuelta a Murcía 2007, stage 4 (23,3km)
2nd, Critérium International 2007, stage 3 (8,3km)
5th, País Vasco 2007, stage 6 (14km)
1st, Alcobendas 2007 stage 3 (9,7km)
5th, Dauphiné 2007, prologue (4,2km)
1st, Burgos 2007, prologue (15km)
1st, Murcía 2008, stage 4 (23,3km)
3rd, Dauphiné 2008, prologue (5,6km)
3rd, Romandie 2009, prologue (3,1km)
2nd, Catalunya 2009, prologue (3,6km)
3rd, Dauphiné 2009, stage 1 (12,1km)
2nd, Madrid 2009, stage 1 (8,1km) - LOL at Héctor Guerra's time in this one, by the way
4th, Burgos 2009, stage 4 (15km)
9th, Vuelta 2009, stage 1 (4,8km)

Valverde has always been pretty decent in a short time trial. Even post-suspension, his times were only poor in the Tour, he was decent elsewhere. No longer posting top 5 times or anything, but enough to say against an early season form competition that isn't all that strong he could still compete for the win. It isn't shocking to see him performing like this, dope or no dope.

 

[Tom T.]

The presence of Rebellin in the top 10 every day is more of a concern to me.

 

[hfer07]

Really? Really? You're playing up the card that Valverde winning prologues and sprinting up mountains is an inconsistency for him? Notwithstanding that this was the Ruta del Sol so the guys he was out-TTing were guys like Spilak and sprinters, not Cancellara and Wiggins, the guy has always been about hill finishes and winning the sprint of the guys left at the top of the mountain, and has also always been pretty useful in a short TT.

7th, País Vasco 2003, stage 5b (13km)
9th, País Vasco 2004, stage 6 (9km) - first 6 there? Julich, Hamilton, Rogers, Menchov, Leipheimer & Mayo
2nd, País Vasco 2006, stage 6 (24km)
2nd, Romandie 2006, prologue (3,4km)
7th, Dauphiné 2006, prologue (4,1km)
5th, Tour de France 2006, prologue (7,1km) - Wiggins was 16th, for the record
1st, Vuelta a Murcía 2007, stage 4 (23,3km)
2nd, Critérium International 2007, stage 3 (8,3km)
5th, País Vasco 2007, stage 6 (14km)
1st, Alcobendas 2007 stage 3 (9,7km)
5th, Dauphiné 2007, prologue (4,2km)
1st, Burgos 2007, prologue (15km)
1st, Murcía 2008, stage 4 (23,3km)
3rd, Dauphiné 2008, prologue (5,6km)
3rd, Romandie 2009, prologue (3,1km)
2nd, Catalunya 2009, prologue (3,6km)
3rd, Dauphiné 2009, stage 1 (12,1km)
2nd, Madrid 2009, stage 1 (8,1km) - LOL at Héctor Guerra's time in this one, by the way
4th, Burgos 2009, stage 4 (15km)
9th, Vuelta 2009, stage 1 (4,8km)

Valverde has always been pretty decent in a short time trial. Even post-suspension, his times were only poor in the Tour, he was decent elsewhere. No longer posting top 5 times or anything, but enough to say against an early season form competition that isn't all that strong he could still compete for the win. It isn't shocking to see him performing like this, dope or no dope.

I don't see the "shock" either- He's usually good around this time of the season-Then come July & he'll be toasted. Unzeo is right about him needing to twick his season IF he wants to do a decent Tour. We know HE WON"T WIN THE TOUR EVER- so I just don't get the fuzz TBH...

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

The presence of Rebellin in the top 10 every day is more of a concern to me.

Why? It's not like most dopers are talentless hacks. They do have that base talent so even clean they still perform most of them