Omega Pharma-Lotto bombshell?

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Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Logic-is-your-friend said:
Yes, like i said, myself. My girlfriend and me do a lot of importing. I haven't imported from Australia yet, but that doesn't matter for customs. Usually it's from Japan or the US.
And what about Belgium?
 
Jul 2, 2009
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Franklin said:
I would believe he bought it for himself if it wasn't such an astronomical quantity. He bought stuff that would last him years upon years... talk about illogical.

Really... you feel bad so you buy dope to shape up. Ok. I can believe it from a cyclist. But you buy for thousands of euros. Why? I mean... you really must like the stuff if you do that just for yourself^^.
But no real details have formally been announced. What you, or anyone here, 'knows' has been garnered from press reports (of unknown accuracy), message boards and various internet sites, with a little speculation thrown in for good measure. It doesn't really make for a complete and reliable picture.

Unclear cases like this almost work as a Rorschach test for cycling fans. Those that want to see a big doping conspiracy with big names involved will see it. Links and associations can always be found. Likewise that want to defend those big names can find faults in those links.

Personally, I like to wait until there's a bit more concrete information.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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Logic-is-your-friend said:
To be clear, I'm certainly not ruling out he bought it to sell to others to dope themselves. I just doubt that guys like JVDB and Gilbert would count on a schmuck to get their stuff online, to be delivered by postorder, two weeks before the TDF starts. Again, in Belgium, you have a 50% chance customs checks your package. I've imported enough software, hardware, games etc outside the EU and more often than not, they will open it and charge you for import taxes.

Also, i would be more inclined to look for riders who had a personal relation with WVS, riding together back in the day.

Furthermore, like i said, if this is his modus operandi, he couldn't have been using it for long or he would have been caught a lot sooner. To me, that kind of rules out the fact that this was a high profile job.

But of course, anything can happen.

PS: if we're going to start a pitchfork cruisade, this might be fun for the believers: when speaking the truth, a person moves his eyes to his left, to access the part of the brain that deals with actual memories. In his Sporza interview, WVS was constantly looking to his left. Dunnn dah-dun-dun.... dunnn-dah-dun-dun-dunnnnnnn :D

PS2: we still don't have confirmation about the amount of capsules he ordered. There is a very vague discription in one article about "thousands of euro's", but is this based on fact or was the journalist trying to raise the tabloid level? Didn't he just google the same stuff we did and just assumed it would be the "large" kit?

PS3: then there is the fact that this is relatively new stuff, and supposedly very dangerous. Wouldn't this rather be for a guinny pig? Maybe he was the guinny pig?
Assuming those riders wanted the next new thing and one of their own claimed to receive it and be the buffer they would likely place an order. Only the dude importing it would know how close to the Tour receipt would take place and he probably would have had another intermediary get it into France for race use; if they're halfway smart.
I doubt they'd attempt to use anything they hadn't worked with before, particularly if from an unknown source. More likely he would be selling to a lower tier of rider.
 
May 6, 2009
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Gilbert doesn't even live in Belgium anymore. He lives in Monaco these days, so surely if he were doping, wouldn't it be easier for him to get his **** from Italy instead? I don't know if VDB2 still lives in Belgium, but after the rumours of him in the Belgium u23 scene (de Cauwer allegedly giving him doping products) and that VDB2 turned pro for The Hog, and if he is indeed doping, he's probably got his own suppliers anyway.

It's funny that in 2007 I remember buying The Times just after the Tour ended, and the person who wrote the article said we could be certain that Wim Vansevenant is clean because if he were doping, then he should get a refund, or get a better doctor.
 
Logic-is-your-friend said:
To be clear, I'm certainly not ruling out he bought it to sell to others to dope themselves. I just doubt that guys like JVDB and Gilbert would count on a schmuck to get their stuff online, to be delivered by postorder, two weeks before the TDF starts. Again, in Belgium, you have a 50% chance customs checks your package. I've imported enough software, hardware, games etc outside the EU and more often than not, they will open it and charge you for import taxes.

...
You have made a good point but in my experience I have seen worse stupid mistakes made by smarter people. Really, there is no warranty that high profile athletes can not make silly mistakes. None.

Cyclists are not the smartest people on this earth. They have to rely heavily on other people to do their dirty deed. So if you have plenty of money you can hire Ferrari to do the most important steps of the job, but if you don’t have a lot of money then anything can happen.

It is still too early but at this point I can believe anything.
 
May 26, 2009
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Angliru said:
There must be some Spanish connection in here somewhere. This can't possibly be happening in Oz, the land of athletic purity. Obviously one of those dirty Spaniards set this fine gentleman up to be the fall guy.;)
Huh? Far be it from me to buy into the Great Aussie Sporting Myth, and I'm sorry about your bruised nationalist ego, but come on - can you point out exactly what illegal or immoral thing is happening in Australia in this particular case?
 
May 12, 2010
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craig1985 said:
Gilbert doesn't even live in Belgium anymore. He lives in Monaco these days, so surely if he were doping, wouldn't it be easier for him to get his **** from Italy instead? I don't know if VDB2 still lives in Belgium, but after the rumours of him in the Belgium u23 scene (de Cauwer allegedly giving him doping products) and that VDB2 turned pro for The Hog, and if he is indeed doping, he's probably got his own suppliers anyway.

It's funny that in 2007 I remember buying The Times just after the Tour ended, and the person who wrote the article said we could be certain that Wim Vansevenant is clean because if he were doping, then he should get a refund, or get a better doctor.
Well, if you wanted to get the doping during the Tour, using someone like Vansevenant could be really usefull. He is trustworthy, and only loosely affiliated with the team, so he can probably smuggle it into France quite easily. You can be sure as hell that riders and sport directors won't import the stuff to France themselves (which makes all those searches by the French customs useless, but I'm sure they know that already).
 
May 26, 2009
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Logic-is-your-friend said:
To be clear, I'm certainly not ruling out he bought it to sell to others to dope themselves. I just doubt that guys like JVDB and Gilbert would count on a schmuck to get their stuff online, to be delivered by postorder, two weeks before the TDF starts. Again, in Belgium, you have a 50% chance customs checks your package.
Nitpicking would be saying that the chance of custom checks really depends on the way it was packaged. 50% customs checking is certainly hyperbole. But that said, chances on being checked are indeed large enough to make a smart person pause.

However... the customers of a dealer certainly do not know how the dealer get's his goods.

The customer doesn't start a dope ring... he just hooks up with a reliable person. Wim S. certainly is reliable as he proves now: he immediately commits seppuku for his customers.

As Mambo said, there is no need for the pitchforks yet, but to poohpooh this away is also quite premature. Right now we can not dismiss the links with OPL. In fact these links are so obvious it's the first thing that will be checked.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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Probably there is more than 1.000.000 packets entering every day in Belgium.
How many times do custom need to check a packet?
How many people do you need to check half of the packets ?
How many customs guys is there in Belgium?

Do you math and improve your logic. ;)
 
poupou said:
Probably there is more than 1.000.000 packets entering every day in Belgium.
How many times do custom need to check a packet?
How many people do you need to check half of the packets ?
How many customs guys is there in Belgium?

Do you math and improve your logic. ;)
Really? We are not talking about industrial shipments? So 1 million packages from outside the EU for Belgium? That's 1 package EACH DAY per 10 people? Seriously? Outside the EU? That comes down to every man, woman and child, getting a package every 10 days, from outside the EU.

Sure. My math is fine. How is yours?

PS: like i said before, they will first and foremost look for commercial and valuable items, for which they can charge import taxes (21% of the value of the package). Most items coming by postorder are easily spotted. The packages that usually don't get checked, are the small packages, that say "gift item". If your pakage is not really small, they might still open it regardless. I also assume they have scanning equipment for the job.
 
May 26, 2009
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Logic-is-your-friend said:
Really? We are not talking about industrial shipments? So 1 million packages from outside the EU for Belgium? That's 1 package EACH DAY per 10 people? Seriously? Outside the EU? That comes down to every man, woman and child, getting a package every 10 days, from outside the EU.

Sure. My math is fine. How is yours?
Agreed, I'd say 10.000 is more to the mark (might still be too much, I'm not an expert on these matter). Of those less than 25% will get checked, but that's still a risky undertaking for smuggling.

But either way it still doesn't matter considering in this case it's the dealer being the idiot, not the dopers themselves.
PS: like i said before, they will first and foremost look for commercial and valuable items, for which they can charge import taxes (21% of the value of the package). Most items coming by postorder are easily spotted. The packages that usually don't get checked, are the small packages, that say "gift item". If your pakage is not really small, they might still open it regardless. I also assume they have scanning equipment for the job.
Yeps, I'm sure certain packages are under a lot more scrutiny. It seems Vansevenant ordered such a big batch that it indeed got spotted. I think it's safe to say he is an idiot. (or his supplier should have shipped in small batches and accidentally screwed up)
 
The "expert" professor, doesn't seem to think this would have short term benefits. At least, he didn't seem to believe this would be useful within a couple of weeks. Which also kind of rules out the idea that it would be delivered by him somewhere during the TDF, because it would be a total waste and only a large risk.

Again: to be clear, i don't want to say OLO doesn't dope, or that these meds weren't for pro cycling. I just think, that on many levels, this doesn't make sense (yet).
 
May 26, 2009
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Logic-is-your-friend said:
The "expert" professor, doesn't seem to think this would have short term benefits. At least, he didn't seem to believe this would be useful within a couple of weeks. Which also kind of rules out the idea that it would be delivered by him somewhere during the TDF, because it would be a total waste and only a large risk.
I'm afraid a lot of doping is pretty close to witchcraft.

Again: to be clear, i don't want to say OLO doesn't dope, or that these meds weren't for pro cycling. I just think, that on many levels, this doesn't make sense (yet).
I'm actually agreeing with you, it would be unbelievably stupid. Also, Operacion Puerto seems to suggest that in a lot of teams riders indeed have to dope on their own, with full consent of the team of course.

So yes, I'd think that if PG or JvdB dope, they have their own doctors and don't use just any drug. But this is because Logic is also my friend... the past has shown this is not always the case with cycling.

On a side note; this excercise in logic also goes for the BMC case with the (significant) difference that that guy is a soigneur. But I'd be surprised if Cadel doesn't have his own medical team ;)
 
Apr 12, 2009
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craig1985 said:
Gilbert doesn't even live in Belgium anymore. He lives in Monaco these days, so surely if he were doping, wouldn't it be easier for him to get his **** from Italy instead? I don't know if VDB2 still lives in Belgium, but after the rumours of him in the Belgium u23 scene (de Cauwer allegedly giving him doping products) and that VDB2 turned pro for The Hog, and if he is indeed doping, he's probably got his own suppliers anyway.

It's funny that in 2007 I remember buying The Times just after the Tour ended, and the person who wrote the article said we could be certain that Wim Vansevenant is clean because if he were doping, then he should get a refund, or get a better doctor.
VDB2 spends most of his time in Spain (Sierra Nevada)
 
May 20, 2011
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The way that this and the BMC thing are being treated is what's worrying me. Everyone's treating it like it's no big deal. A minor and totally unrelated incident with the teams and the Tour. This is not how things should go.
 
Winternet_ said:
The way that this and the BMC thing are being treated is what's worrying me. Everyone's treating it like it's no big deal. A minor and totally unrelated incident with the teams and the Tour. This is not how things should go.
You can't point fingers before you have more info. Of course chances that neither case had anything to with riders in the tour are slim to none.

Actually, in both cases you don't know where to point the finger at. In 2009 GVA and Evans didn't ride at BMC, so what are the evidence that this has been going on still? And if it did, were they in on it? The case of OPL on the other hand is so naively insane, with other elements that don't make sense (not short term, so why right before TDF?).

The most likely offenders would seem to be Gibert and Evans. If JVDB is a doper, it would be really pathetic. I enjoy watching the guy ride, but he needs 3 demarages (i don't know the correct English term, sorry) to take 10 meters. If he is doped, that is truly a poor performance. Especially given the nature of the dope they found.
 

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