Omega Pharma Quick Step: Are you kidding me??

[The Hitch]

US Postal is just the best documented example, but not the only one. Teams may or may not do things differently now, but I don't see how disregarding the little available data we have is going to improve your theories. Of course you have to take everything with a grain of salt and be ready to reassess everything if new evidence surfaces.

Ashenden said it's pockets of organized doping. So more narrow "a teams"

 

[The Hitch]

I can't see why Uran Uran would be out of the 'A Team' at Skywhen he was a key domestique, leader in the hilly classics and also lead the team in the Vuelta and inherited the leadership in the Giro.

You can't see why uran wouldn't be on the a team?

Ever heard of "need to know basis".

skys raison detre was to dominate the tour. Uran wasn't there on either occasion, so unless brailsford is significantly dumber than we give him credit for, riders who weren't even at the race are not going to be informed about the doping practices.

 

[del1962]

Do people really think that Uran is performing significantly better than last year when he finished 2nd to Nibali after starting the tour as a super domestique, who even had to wait for Wiggo on one stage, Ok a strong TT, but one that suited him and where none of the real top TT's where present.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

But it also leads to scatter-gun speculation dressed up as strongly evidenced theories. Lance and Postal cast such a long shadow over the sport that I think people forget everyone else.

Oh, please Jimmy, come off it. Do you think Thomas Davy was on the A-team at Banesto? Hampsten?

Not saying Uran wasnt

 

[Bavarianrider]

Reading this threat one could think Uran and half the Omega squat beat Wiggins Cancellara, Froome Porte and Tony by minutes in a flat TT
Why do you actually watch cycling when everybody who wins a race is much dirtier than the ones you come in 5th or so?
There is abolutely 0 fishy about yesterdays TT result. It's a plane normal boring TT result with gaps as you can excpect them. Nothing spectacular at all.

 

[JimmyFingers]

You can't see why uran wouldn't be on the a team?

Ever heard of "need to know basis".

skys raison detre was to dominate the tour. Uran wasn't there on either occasion, so unless brailsford is significantly dumber than we give him credit for, riders who weren't even at the race are not going to be informed about the doping practices.

Ah OK so he wouldn't tell/dope Uran unless he was selected for the Tour, so only the 9 riding for the Tour were doping, and informed of the doping practises. EBH has ridden the tour every year for Sky, so we can assume he is doped to the eyeballs, while the classic teams and the rest are clean. Strange since everyone considers EBH to be underperforming.

But obviously now Uran is smashing for OPQS he is in the inner circle and is doped to the gills, I think. I'm not sure though.

Speculation is lots of fun.



Or am I inferring too much?

 

[SafeBet]

Do people really think that Uran is performing significantly better than last year when he finished 2nd to Nibali after starting the tour as a super domestique, who even had to wait for Wiggo on one stage, Ok a strong TT, but one that suited him and where none of the real top TT's where present.

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=24012

Kelderman, Gretsch.
That was Uran level in the ITT last year.

Now look where Kelderman and Gretsch are now: http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=26044

If that's not significantly better, I don't know know what it is.

 

[Benotti69]

But it also leads to scatter-gun speculation dressed up as strongly evidenced theories. Lance and Postal cast such a long shadow over the sport that I think people forget everyone else.

I really hope Sky fans are not forgetting, the Festina Affair, OP Puerto, Op Padavo, T-Mobile, Mapei's completing podiums, domo farm frites, Saunier Duvall, Cofidis the upcoming Rabo team doping inquiry and all the other doping stuff on teams that we have proof for.

So Uran rode clean for Sky but now rides dirty for OPQS! I doubt it. He rode dirty always, nearly all do, it is the fabric of the sport.

 

[del1962]

Ah OK so he wouldn't tell/dope Uran unless he was selected for the Tour, so only the 9 riding for the Tour were doping, and informed of the doping practises. EBH has ridden the tour every year for Sky, so we can assume he is doped to the eyeballs, while the classic teams and the rest are clean. Strange since everyone considers EBH to be underperforming.

But obviously now Uran is smashing for OPQS he is in the inner circle and is doped to the gills, I think. I'm not sure though.

Speculation is lots of fun.



Or am I inferring too much?

Jimmy, I think their theory was that only Wiggo, Froome, Richie and Mick where the inner circle (perhaps Thomas and PK added now) not that I buy into this theory)

I think Uran is performing to the same level as before

Possibilities for Uran

He did not dope and team sky and he is not doping now
He doped at team sky and that was why they let him go (Race Radio said something along these lines)
He doped at team sky but wanted to go himself

None of these rule in or out other doping at Sky

Take your pick

 

[The Hitch]

Ah OK so he wouldn't tell/dope Uran unless he was selected for the Tour, so only the 9 riding for the Tour were doping, and informed of the doping practises. EBH has ridden the tour every year for Sky, so we can assume he is doped to the eyeballs, while the classic teams and the rest are clean. Strange since everyone considers EBH to be underperforming.

But obviously now Uran is smashing for OPQS he is in the inner circle and is doped to the gills, I think. I'm not sure though.

Speculation is lots of fun.



Or am I inferring too much?

It would be unnecessary and risky to put riders not involved in the team's goal on the a team/= all 9 riders selected for the tour are doping.

This is not the first time you've taken someones post, attached a totally different meaning to it than what they actually said and had a rant .

The way you view the world seems to consistently be black and white. Very simplistic. Someone says a rider on the tour is less likely to be on the a team. You immediately interpret that as then saying everyone on the tour was doping.

Come on. I never said anything of the sort.

I also have never said word 1 about ebh so I don't know what you are trying to show me with that.

 

[del1962]

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=24012

Kelderman, Gretsch.
That was Uran level in the ITT last year.

Now look where Kelderman and Gretsch are now: http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=26044

If that's not significantly better, I don't know know what it is.

Last year he beat Kelderman in TT which was less suited to Uran and Kelderman had help of Henao, same time as Gretch last year but much flatter last year

 

[The Hitch]

Reading this threat one could think Uran and half the Omega squat beat Wiggins Cancellara, Froome Porte and Tony by minutes in a flat TT
Why do you actually watch cycling when everybody who wins a race is much dirtier than the ones you come in 5th or so?
There is abolutely 0 fishy about yesterdays TT result. It's a plane normal boring TT result with gaps as you can excpect them. Nothing spectacular at all.

On most stage rankings there's a column, usually on the other side from the stage finish position that shows the time difference between the riders on the stage.
You seem to have missed this.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Do people really think that Uran is performing significantly better than last year when he finished 2nd to Nibali after starting the tour as a super domestique, who even had to wait for Wiggo on one stage, Ok a strong TT, but one that suited him and where none of the real top TT's where present.

That was also the excuse last year. 'He hasn't improved that much from every other TT he's ever done and this route suited him perfectly'

I deliberately left out anyone injured this year, as that would torpedo your claim in an unfair way.
Let's look at facts

Gretsch went from doing the same time to losing 2m12
Hesjedal went from losing 35s to 3m22
Sánchez went from 1m29s to 5m19s
Cataldo went from losing 1m36 to 2m23
Pozzovivo went from losing 48s to 2m9s

And since you're talking about improvement, let's look at the young stars.
Kelderman and Aru are at the age where you'd expect a large leap in performance and have improved tremendously in every respect this year.
As shown by their performances in previous stages, and the fact they went from 14th and 23rd in last year's TT to 7th and 16th yesterday.

Kelderman lost 9 seconds to Urán last year. This year despite his improvement he was over 2 minutes down.
Aru said last year he was very disappointed because he came down with a cold and it affected his performance. He was less than a minute behind Urán. Yesterday, healthy, he was 3 minutes down.

And none of that even factors in that the TT was shorter this year so the gaps should be smaller. In fact, as you helpfully pointed out, there were no top TT men here while last year the field was class.

Despite that class field and a route a full 30% longer, the gap to 50th or 100th for example, was much shorter than this year's.

That's a huge, huge, laughably huge leap by Urán
You may think you're making sound arguments, but you're just making us point and laugh

 

[JimmyFingers]

It would be unnecessary and risky to put riders not involved in the team's goal on the a team/= all 9 riders selected for the tour are doping.

This is not the first time you've taken someones post, attached a totally different meaning to it than what they actually said and had a rant .

The way you view the world seems to consistently be black and white. Very simplistic. Someone says a rider on the tour is less likely to be on the a team. You immediately interpret that as then saying everyone on the tour was doping.

Come on. I never said anything of the sort.

I also have never said word 1 about ebh so I don't know what you are trying to show me with that.

Well I did ask if I was inferring too much, but you were very bombastic about Sky's Tour team was the inner circle only, and that riders outside were being kept in the dark, hence Uran being out, and so I inferred you included EBH in that, since he has ridden the last few tours for Sky, although that runs counter to other theories that he is riding clean due to indifferent performances.

And come on, you really call that a rant? What does that make your over-long diatribes on how you're absolutely certain Sky are doping?

Anyway, my point before we get bogged down in the usual white noise, is this talk of 'a teams' is utter speculation based on guessed at half-truths built into some nefarious conspirational fallacy that bears little or no relation to what actually is going on. And it doesn't really matter how many times it is said, or how loudly you say it, or how certain you are of it, the only people that know what is going on at Sky or OPQS is the people at Sky and OPQS.

And quite frankly is anyone is looking at the world black and white its you. I like to keep an open mind, apply logic as well as instinct and intellect to issues. But mostly I give the benefit of the doubt until I get information that leads me to think otherwise.

 

[hrotha]

utter speculation based on guessed at half-truths built into some nefarious conspirational fallacy that bears little or no relation to what actually is going on.

How is that not speculation itself? The key difference being yours isn't backed by history or the likes of Ashenden.

 

[JimmyFingers]

So I speculating on your speculating being speculation? I don't know, probably, but it sounds like a lot fun

 

[del1962]

That was also the excuse last year. 'He hasn't improved that much from every other TT he's ever done and this route suited him perfectly'

I deliberately left out anyone injured this year, as that would torpedo your claim in an unfair way.
Let's look at facts

Gretsch went from doing the same time to losing 2m12
Hesjedal went from losing 35s to 3m22
Sánchez went from 1m29s to 5m19s
Cataldo went from losing 1m36 to 2m23
Pozzovivo went from losing 48s to 2m9s

And since you're talking about improvement, let's look at the young stars.
Kelderman and Aru are at the age where you'd expect a large leap in performance and have improved tremendously in every respect this year.
As shown by their performances in previous stages, and the fact they went from 14th and 23rd in last year's TT to 7th and 16th yesterday.

Kelderman lost 9 seconds to Urán last year. This year despite his improvement he was over 2 minutes down.
Aru said last year he was very disappointed because he came down with a cold and it affected his performance. He was less than a minute behind Urán. Yesterday, healthy, he was 3 minutes down.

And none of that even factors in that the TT was shorter this year so the gaps should be smaller. In fact, as you helpfully pointed out, there were no top TT men here while last year the field was class.

Despite that class field and a route a full 30% longer, Urán's gap to 50th or 100th for example, was much larger than last year's.

That's a huge, huge, laughably huge leap by Urán
You may think you're making sound arguments, but you're just making us point and laugh

I think you need to remove certain things from your argument, firstly the conditions for those who went of towards the end where significantly better (drying roads ring any bells makes a huge difference on descents this will have significant effect on gaps to 50th abd 100th), secondly Uran was not working as a domestique but has the protection of team leader this year, prior to last years TT he spent time dragging Wiggins round after Wiggo was dropped on the descents.

The 30% longer is a bit false as the terrain meant the time was only about
25% percent difference

And as I said about Keldermann, he had assistance from Henao last year, on Aru, he may have gone off too fast on first climb.

 

[hrotha]

So I speculating on your speculating being speculation? I don't know, probably, but it sounds like a lot fun

No, your speculation that A teams stopped being a thing somewhere down the line (since you said those theories bear "little or no relation to what actually is going on").

 

[del1962]

No, your speculation that A teams stopped being a thing somewhere down the line (since you said those theories bear "little or no relation to what actually is going on").

Wouldnt the evidence from USADA's reasoned decision back up the theory that A teams stopped being a thing somewhere down the line

 

[The Hitch]

Do people really think that Uran is performing significantly better than last year when he finished 2nd to Nibali after starting the tour as a super domestique, who even had to wait for Wiggo on one stage, Ok a strong TT, but one that suited him and where none of the real top TT's where present.

Uran's gap to 2nd place was bigger than the time gap covering the next 11 riders on the stage.

(1 Uran 0
(2 Ulissi 1.17

[2 Ulissi 0
[
[
[12 Herrada 1.09

Yes, I think he is performing significantly better than last year.

 

[Lanark]

That was also the excuse last year. 'He hasn't improved that much from every other TT he's ever done and this route suited him perfectly'

I deliberately left out anyone injured this year, as that would torpedo your claim in an unfair way.
Let's look at facts

Gretsch went from doing the same time to losing 2m12
Hesjedal went from losing 35s to 3m22
Sánchez went from 1m29s to 5m19s
Cataldo went from losing 1m36 to 2m23
Pozzovivo went from losing 48s to 2m9s

And since you're talking about improvement, let's look at the young stars.
Kelderman and Aru are at the age where you'd expect a large leap in performance and have improved tremendously in every respect this year.
As shown by their performances in previous stages, and the fact they went from 14th and 23rd in last year's TT to 7th and 16th yesterday.

Kelderman lost 9 seconds to Urán last year. This year despite his improvement he was over 2 minutes down.
Aru said last year he was very disappointed because he came down with a cold and it affected his performance. He was less than a minute behind Urán. Yesterday, healthy, he was 3 minutes down.

And none of that even factors in that the TT was shorter this year so the gaps should be smaller. In fact, as you helpfully pointed out, there were no top TT men here while last year the field was class.

Despite that class field and a route a full 30% longer, the gap to 50th or 100th for example, was much shorter than this year's.

That's a huge, huge, laughably huge leap by Urán
You may think you're making sound arguments, but you're just making us point and laugh

And we're done here. Uran made a huge leap in his ITT performance from last year. If people want they are free to argue whether that leap is realistic or not, it's pointless to discuss whether there was a leap, that is abundantly clear.

 

[del1962]

I would actually be interested on what where the time differnces on the ascents, descents and flatter sections, I think those who went late on had big advantages on the descents due to drying roads, which makes Ulissi even more impressive.

 

[JimmyFingers]

No, your speculation that A teams stopped being a thing somewhere down the line (since you said those theories bear "little or no relation to what actually is going on").

No no, I was merely theorising bear little or no relation to what is actually going on, given that I'd speculate using an antique model of doping that has been exposed totally would be an extremely counter-intuitive move to make.

So I am speculating that my speculations are closer to the truth that your speculations, which at the end of the day is the essence of the debate here.

And I hope you don't take that as disrespectful, it isn't what is intended. I'll tell you when I want to be disrespectful

 

[BYOP88]

People this is the OPQS thread!!!!!!

Here we can discuss the *magic* behind OPQS not Brad 'I can dish out abuse, but can't take it' Wiggans/Sky/Lampre/etC etc.

If you have no evidence to back up your claims that OPQS are dirty and cheating you can't post in here


*Of course the magic is 7 hours rides without eating, contracting random diseases, being an altitude native and so on.

 

[Escarabajo]

So up and down = doping, consistent = doping

Agree on the first one. Not sure the second one is a good criteria in the Clinic. Is not mine for sure.