Omega Pharma Quick Step: Are you kidding me??

[hrotha]

What Parrulo said. I was also alluding to the fact that when said "next big race" comes and OPQS dominates, it's still handwaved by saying the opposition was weak or they got lucky or they had particularly filling rice cakes that morning, so we're told to wait for the next one again to judge.

 

[Lanark]

We had the same thing in 2012 with Sky. Sure, Wiggins won Paris-Nice, but what, he only finished a few seconds before Lieuwe Westra, hardly Alberto Contador he beat there. Sure, he won Romandie, but who did he beat there, a couple of kids like Talansky and Costa? Not exactly Andy Schleck. Ok, he won the Dauphiné, but that was against his own teammates, just wait for the real event to pass judgement (and this pretty much continued throughout 2013, although people where earlier admitting that Froome was really just that good, just like OPQS being really, really good right now).

 

[King Boonen]

Why? Hrotha is absolutely right. OPQS has been dominating the cobbled classics for years now so what exactly are waiting for to pass judgement?

How many years?

Over the last five years they've had Boonen and Devolder win in the cobbled classics. Fab has as many wins as OPQS all together.

Looking further back and it is still only those two riders. Are you saying they would have put someone else on the podium if Boonen wasn't there? Afraid I don't know about the overall podium but it seems that for a team who's whole purpose is to win races in their home country with the home grown riders who have turned out to be good at them, this is a reasonable set of wins (as long as you believe in Boonen).

 

[Benotti69]

How many years?

Over the last five years they've had Boonen and Devolder win in the cobbled classics. Fab has as many wins as OPQS all together.

Looking further back and it is still only those two riders. Are you saying they would have put someone else on the podium if Boonen wasn't there? Afraid I don't know about the overall podium but it seems that for a team who's whole purpose is to win races in their home country with the home grown riders who have turned out to be good at them, this is a reasonable set of wins (as long as you believe in Boonen).

Yeah like Cancellara is clean Boonen likes all kinds of chemicals.

If you think OPQS are clean with a doctor like Ibauguren you really have your head in a dark place..........

 

[King Boonen]

Yeah like Cancellara is clean Boonen likes all kinds of chemicals.

If you think OPQS are clean with a doctor like Ibauguren you really have your head in a dark place..........

Well this is getting to the point. If you think every winner of every cobbled classic for the last 5-10 years is dirty I don't know what you'd even bother commenting in this forum.

 

[hrotha]

It's not just about winning. It's about the whole squad stepping up, being up there and being able to cover for their leaders and get results of their own should Boonen crash.

 

[Lanark]

Well this is getting to the point. If you think every winner of every cobbled classic for the last 5-10 years is dirty I don't know what you'd even bother commenting in this forum.

Nice straw-man.

 

[King Boonen]

Nice straw-man.

How? If you're just going to say "they were all doped" that isn't a discussion. What is the point of a post like that?

It's not just about winning. It's about the whole squad stepping up, being up there and being able to cover for their leaders and get results of their own should Boonen crash.

They haven't though have they? As I said, I can't rattle off top tens for every race, but in the past five years only two riders from OPQS have ever won a cobbled classic. For a team that looks to employ riders with the ability to win on the cobbles that doesn't seem like an overly suspicious return. The issue is Boonen has been so good that we'll never know if someone else would have stepped up.

HTC and Saxo have as many different winners of cobbled classics over the last five as OPQS do.

 

[hrotha]

If I say it's not necessarily about winning and you repeat that they're not the winningest team out there that doesn't really change much, does it.

Also, we're not talking about the past 5 years. We're talking 2012-2014 here. The Ibarguren Era. Not that they were likely to be clean before that, mind.

 

[The Hitch]

So, it seems to me Kwiatkowski is having the kind of progression that everyone thinks a rider should have. He's young, he's looked good for a number of years and he's now coming good, early in the season when others might not be in peak shape.

The results don't seem hugely surprising so far based on what he has done previously do they?

**** Pound, the father of anti doping himself, says cycling still has doping problems. Michael Ashenden, the holy spirit, says there is still doping, it has just become more organized.

**** Kwiatkowski's progression. Marco Pantani's progression was "natural" as were many others. This ain't about that. Maybe Kwiatkowski himself is not on the programe and clean.

It's about a team which always doped, and never was held to account for it, dominating while employing one of the dodgiest doctors in the sport. In a sport which the few people that can be trusted still say is dirty. 1990's dirty? No, maybe not. But there's still doping, as one can expect from multi million dollar sport, and the people we can trust say it.

So where have fans learnt to look for doping. Well at the top naturally. Some will hover around the middle but due to the advantage it gives, they tend to float to the top.

Progression really isnt all these discussions come down to. And kwiatkowskis spring classics last year were definately a surprise anyway.

 

[The Hitch]

We had the same thing in 2012 with Sky. Sure, Wiggins won Paris-Nice, but what, he only finished a few seconds before Lieuwe Westra, hardly Alberto Contador he beat there. Sure, he won Romandie, but who did he beat there, a couple of kids like Talansky and Costa? Not exactly Andy Schleck. Ok, he won the Dauphiné, but that was against his own teammates, just wait for the real event to pass judgement (and this pretty much continued throughout 2013, although people where earlier admitting that Froome was really just that good, just like OPQS being really, really good right now).

The best one was when froome won on tivo - oh please, he only beat Horner, he's 41 yo so must have been very slow #cleanera

 

[King Boonen]

If I say it's not necessarily about winning and you repeat that they're not the winningest team out there that doesn't really change much, does it.

Also, we're not talking about the past 5 years. We're talking 2012-2014 here. The Ibarguren Era. Not that they were likely to be clean before that, mind.

But that's what I asked, how well did the rest of the team do? I'll look it up, but from memory I don't think they were any more dominant than you'd expect from a squad built on the classics, it wasn't like a Sky train as far as I can remember.

I will go and do some research.

 

[King Boonen]

**** Pound, the father of anti doping himself, says cycling still has doping problems. Michael Ashenden, the holy spirit, says there is still doping, it has just become more organized.

**** Kwiatkowski's progression. Marco Pantani's progression was "natural" as were many others. This ain't about that. Maybe Kwiatkowski himself is not on the programe and clean.

It's about a team which always doped, and never was held to account for it, dominating while employing one of the dodgiest doctors in the sport. In a sport which the few people that can be trusted still say is dirty. 1990's dirty? No, maybe not. But there's still doping, as one can expect from multi million dollar sport, and the people we can trust say it.

So where have fans learnt to look for doping. Well at the top naturally. Some will hover around the middle but due to the advantage it gives, they tend to float to the top.

Progression really isnt all these discussions come down to. And kwiatkowskis spring classics last year were definately a surprise anyway.

I don't doubt there is still doping, I also don't doubt there is as much doping at the top as there is at the bottom. I do doubt that there is the same kind of team-wide doping there used to be, although I'm sure there is still alot of "what you guys talk about between yourselves and your doctors is none of our business" going on.

I joined the discussion because of Kwiatkowski, it's much harder to discuss a whole team. He seems to be having an expected progression for someone who is very talented. We could argue over where the talent comes from but we can't be certain. But he is young, has a decent track record and has looked good for a couple of years now. I will be more suspicious if he smashes everyone on the the flat cobbles, but it's unlikely as Boonen is in form.

 

[TailWindHome]

We're talking 2012-2014 here.

Were they not poor last classics season (2013) after Boonen crashed out?

http://www.procyclingstats.com/team/Omega_Pharma_Quick_step_2013

Ranked 8th last year - mostly due to Martin/Cavendish

 

[Lanark]

Were they not poor last classics season (2013) after Boonen crashed out?

http://www.procyclingstats.com/team/Omega_Pharma_Quick_step_2013

Ranked 8th last year - mostly due to Martin/Cavendish

In 2012 they won Dwars door Vlaanderen, E3, Gent-Wevelgem, Driedaagse de Panne, Ronde van Vlaanderen and Roubaix in 2.5 weeks, literally every cobbled classic in that period.

 

[The Hitch]

Were they not poor last classics season (2013) after Boonen crashed out?

http://www.procyclingstats.com/team/Omega_Pharma_Quick_step_2013

Ranked 8th last year - mostly due to Martin/Cavendish

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/cqRankingTeam.asp?year=2013
Ranked 1st.

 

[TailWindHome]

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/cqRankingTeam.asp?year=2013
Ranked 1st.

Best of 3?

http://www.uciprotour.com/templates/BUILTIN-NOFRAMES/Template3/layout.asp?MenuId=MTY5OTM&LangId=1

7th

 

[Benotti69]

Well this is getting to the point. If you think every winner of every cobbled classic for the last 5-10 years is dirty I don't know what you'd even bother commenting in this forum.

Well if you think they are clean, why would you come into the clinic?

I guess those who follow certain teams come into the clinic to try and find justification for the fandom, hoping enough posters will point to reasons for them being clean. Never tested positive.

I come here to discuss doping. The sport is full of it.

Leipheimer got kicked off OPQS because he spat in the soup.

 

[King Boonen]

Well if you think they are clean, why would you come into the clinic?

I guess those who follow certain teams come into the clinic to try and find justification for the fandom, hoping enough posters will point to reasons for them being clean. Never tested positive.

I come here to discuss doping. The sport is full of it.

Leipheimer got kicked off OPQS because he spat in the soup.

I don't think everyone is clean, but I came into this thread because it seemed like the arguments being made against Kwiat were the opposite of those made against others, he hasn't come out of nowhere, he's still very young and it's not like he's just won three monuments in a row or something. People are two quick to judge IMO.

As for the team, there only goal the past few years has been doing well in these one day races, races that suit probably 80-90% of their riders. Whether they are doped to be that good I can't say, but i don't find their performances massively surprising when looking at the teams.

For what it's worth I'm more inclined to believe Boonen is doped than Fab, but I'm pretty skeptical about both.

 

[Benotti69]

I don't think everyone is clean, but I came into this thread because it seemed like the arguments being made against Kwiat were the opposite of those made against others, he hasn't come out of nowhere, he's still very young and it's not like he's just won three monuments in a row or something. People are two quick to judge IMO.

As for the team, there only goal the past few years has been doing well in these one day races, races that suit probably 80-90% of their riders. Whether they are doped to be that good I can't say, but i don't find their performances massively surprising when looking at the teams.

For what it's worth I'm more inclined to believe Boonen is doped than Fab, but I'm pretty skeptical about both.

What is quick judgement? Anti-doping is a joke and OPQS have a doc who is a dirty as a pig sty!

 

[roundabout]

http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/cqRankingTeam.asp?year=2014

healthy gap. The rest better get on with it

 

[TheGame]

What is quick judgement? Anti-doping is a joke and OPQS have a doc who is a dirty as a pig sty!

Two docs even. Van Mol is hardly white as driven snow.

 

[Mellow Velo]

One can only imagine the uproar and level of indignation there would have been around here, had a Sky rider done what Gianni Meersman did in the closing stages of Paris-Nice, today.
OPQS: Not even a ripple of criticism.

 

[Cyivel]

One can only imagine the uproar and level of indignation there would have been around here, had a Sky rider done what Gianni Meersman did in the closing stages of Paris-Nice, today.
OPQS: Not even a ripple of criticism.

There is in the race thread

 

[Digger]

One can only imagine the uproar and level of indignation there would have been around here, had a Sky rider done what Gianni Meersman did in the closing stages of Paris-Nice, today.
OPQS: Not even a ripple of criticism.

I think when QS start doing it all year round or over stage races then the criticism will be more forthcoming...having said that I have no doubt QS are doping.

And that is the thing....even if there is a good year of two for clean racing, it can change so quickly...one team dopes...the others say we are wasting our time here, and away we go.