ORBEA: Basque workmanship or Chinese?

[Christian Schneider]

If bikes are made in China, because labor is cheaper, why isn't that savings passed on the rider?

 

[craig1985]

I bought a brand new Orbea Onix last year and I've been happy with it. I was of the understanding that it was made in Spain and all the city/hybrid bikes were the bikes made in China and then they were moving all the road frames except for the top of the range Orca to China. Now Orbea have scrapped the Onix and now it is Orca Gold, Orca Silver, and Orca Bronze (which is the Onix), which I think is crap.

 

[LugHugger]

Unfortunately, the only Italian connection Bugatti has is that the founder was Italian. (They are made near Strasbourg in NE France).

Isn't most Campagnolo still manufactured in Vicenza?

Negri Bossi plastics injection moulding machines are from Italy & no doubt some are used in Asia!

Some Campy is still manufactured in Italy, especially their carbon components. Finishing too. Alloy components are made(?) and assembled in Romania (cheap - like Asia) along with assembly of the mid to high range gruppo componentry. All 'manufacturers' chase margins - some go to Asia, some go to Eastern Europe, some go to Mexico.

 

[craig1985]

Don't Look make their frames in Tunisia or Algeria these days?

 

[Notso Swift]

Some, also some in Asia
Top model 695 is now Tunisia, although early ones were in France and finish is done in France
Lower 566 is Asia
Remarkably the mid range (ok still high end) 586 is France
LOOK have had a factory in Tunisia for 20+ years, but previously it was mainly components and parts for pedals

Can't say about TT/MTB, but all Track is France (inc base Alu) are french
Basically once they moved away from Lugs they started moving away from French production... does that say something about the change in skills required?

IMO the most "honest" bike you can buy from Europe is the TIME, you will be ripped a new one, but they actually weave their carbon and they don't use prepreg ... ever noticed how the high ends from some manufacturers are discounted to the nines after year one, doesn't really happen with Time, which makes me think...
(BTW BMC has started weaving for the IMPEC, in their Swiss facility as well, but I understand they have had some teething issues, may be sorted)

 

[Notso Swift]

If bikes are made in China, because labor is cheaper, why isn't that savings passed on the rider?

My next door neighbour owns a structural glass factory in China, building stuff for skyscrapers and the like, most goes to Malaysia/Singapore and the like (developed countries)
It is top quality stuff
He said to me that if he bought it to Aus it would be less than 10% cheaper than the local stuff, because to make the quality that is just what it costs, and his labour for skilled workers is not that cheap, unskilled yes, but then the quality isn't good enough. Since it is all custom engineered and they cam sell as much as they make (and rejects mean losing production capacity) quality is important

So Chinese and quality are not mutually exclusive, but you still need to pay for it.
How we can tell which one is a "good one" and which one isn't? I guess you pay for the name/warranty and get reports from mags like RIDE where they test the bikes in a decent way (including full disassembly and inspection, and ride it for more than just a press weekend)

 

[avanti]

.......... but they actually weave their carbon and they don't use prepreg ... ...........QUOTE]

I work in the aerospace industry and can tell you that prepregs often use wovem carbon fiber fabric. Non-woven filament carbon fiber composites are also used for some items using computerized layup machines.
But masybe you mean that time buys woven fabric tobes, put them on a mandril, ten apply epoxy - that is a good method for dome items and is also done in aerospace.

 

[LugHugger]

.......... but they actually weave their carbon and they don't use prepreg ... ...........QUOTE]

I work in the aerospace industry and can tell you that prepregs often use wovem carbon fiber fabric. Non-woven filament carbon fiber composites are also used for some items using computerized layup machines.
But masybe you mean that time buys woven fabric tobes, put them on a mandril, ten apply epoxy - that is a good method for dome items and is also done in aerospace.

Time have spools of filament and spin their own fibre adding Kevlar to the different modulus fibres to achieve their desired characteristics in their tubing. Fact. Just sayin'.

 

[Pete Subs]

When I spoke to some riders in Italy they told me that most of the Pinarello line is also manufactured in Asia. Still the prices went up over the last couple of years?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

When I spoke to some riders in Italy they told me that most of the Pinarello line is also manufactured in Asia. Still the prices went up over the last couple of years?

Prices have gone up exponentially across the board not just in the cycling industry, but everywhere. Pretty soon the average price of a high end carbon bike is going to be so high that people are going to DIY and fabricate their own in a shed next to their vegetable garden because they can't afford to buy from the grocery either to fuel their rides.

Maxxis tires have increased in price 3 times in the last 3 months this season. Just one bike industry example.

 

[Pete Subs]

Unfortunately, the only Italian connection Bugatti has is that the founder was Italian. QUOTE]

Battaglin is also a manufacturer who makes everything in house. I visited the factory and saw how the bikes are made.

Yes, Bugatti is French. Pretty much the only supercar which isn't Italian

 

[Pete Subs]

Unfortunately, the only Italian connection Bugatti has is that the founder was Italian. (They are made near Strasbourg in NE France).

Isn't most Campagnolo still manufactured in Vicenza?

Negri Bossi plastics injection moulding machines are from Italy & no doubt some are used in Asia!

Battaglin is also a manufacturer who makes everything in house. I visited the factory and saw how the bikes are made.

Yes, Bugatti is French. Pretty much the only supercar which isn't Italian

 

[lanternrouge]

Battaglin is also a manufacturer who makes everything in house. I visited the factory and saw how the bikes are made.

Yes, Bugatti is French. Pretty much the only supercar which isn't Italian

Mclaren? Not italian. Koenigsegg? Audi R8?

 

[Pete Subs]

Prices have gone up exponentially across the board not just in the cycling industry, but everywhere. Pretty soon the average price of a high end carbon bike is going to be so high that people are going to DIY and fabricate their own in a shed next to their vegetable garden because they can't afford to buy from the grocery either to fuel their rides.

Maxxis tires have increased in price 3 times in the last 3 months this season. Just one bike industry example.

Yes, I agree. It’s frustrating. When I visited I Europe saw more and more manufactures move towards consumer direct sales. Canyon sells direct at a showroom next to their factory. Awesome bikes and the prices are still way below most other brands. I bought Italian also direct.

 

[Pete Subs]

Mclaren? Not italian. Koenigsegg? Audi R8?

Yes, you are right.
There are some more boutique super car brands that are not Italian. I was talking about the “mainstream” brands. If you figure that at least 3 of the top motorcycle brands are Italian and some of the best cars as well than the argument from a previous post about Italian craftsmanship would not apply

 

[Christian Schneider]

Where ever Obrea Orcas are made they are hard to find! Orbea USA will not sell frames direct and refer me to dealers, who no longer carry Orbea. None of the half dozen dealers I was referred to carry Orbea any longer. I just wanted to check out a 2011 and I can't find one to view. I can not find an on-line dealer, Orbea will not sell to my LBS. Quess I really don't need a new Orbea anyways.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Yes, I agree. It’s frustrating. When I visited I Europe saw more and more manufactures move towards consumer direct sales. Canyon sells direct at a showroom next to their factory. Awesome bikes and the prices are still way below most other brands. I bought Italian also direct.

I'm hijacking the thread a little, but most of the brands selling through independent dealers (ex. Orbea) are under pressure from Trek and Specialized at the top labeling OEM bikes at stupid prices and a variety of direct-to-market resellers labeling similar OEM bikes at more reasonable prices. (ex. Canyon) Further down the price scales, people going direct to OEM's are making it tougher still for the independent dealer that tries to resell bikes.

In Orbea's case, their production costs are so low that they are under less pressure than many low-volume brands just flipping what the OEM is making. Good business strategy for Orbea. Unfortunately, it doesn't help the independent bike dealer who doesn't fall into Trek/Specialized black hole.

Cycling is a tough business!

 

[biker77]

The market is talking. More and more people are not willing to pay outrageous prices for bikes when something very close, if not identical, is available much cheaper.

Not sure Orbea have a good strategy in the US. Sounds like they are hard to find....

 

[ultimobici]

Unfortunately, the only Italian connection Bugatti has is that the founder was Italian. (They are made near Strasbourg in NE France).

Funny thing is that the car company Bugatti was never Italian but French from day one. Started in 1909 in Molsheim in Alsace, although Ettore Bugatti was Italian by birth.

 

[Notso Swift]

Actually the region was German when he started the company as a result of the Franco - Prussian war, and reverted to France after WW1
Regardless Those VW boy own it along with Lambo, so I think you can count them all as German brands now

 

[rickshaw]

too true

Where ever Obrea Orcas are made they are hard to find! Orbea USA will not sell frames direct and refer me to dealers, who no longer carry Orbea. None of the half dozen dealers I was referred to carry Orbea any longer. I just wanted to check out a 2011 and I can't find one to view. I can not find an on-line dealer, Orbea will not sell to my LBS. Quess I really don't need a new Orbea anyways.

I have one Orbea an a few years age when I was thinking about a 29er I thought I'd checkout the Orbea offering. Itwas late fall and there were none in stock the couple of places I checked. They told me I'd have to wait till next spring. Now there's a great sales tactic! Of course who wants to put an expensive bike into inventory at the end of the season? More than one shop (big ones) described Orbea as their "exotic" line.

ps I have about $175k worth of Italian crafted technology. crappy welding, marginal design, other problems. Why'd I buy it? I know a lot more now than I did then. Country of origin guarantees nothing.

 

[B_Ugli]

When you consider the benchmark for Carbon Fibre frames used to be the Colnago C40, this was retailing in the UK for about £1500.00 during the Mapei heyday.

Alot of frames of similar racing pedigree are now going for £2000-£3000 in a period when the wholesale price of raw material, particularly in the far east has drastically decreased, along with most other consumer goods.

Whilst not everyone wants an S-Works tarmac SL3, the technology and aftersales service represents probably the best all round frame you can buy these days.