Owners - are you happy about the appalling moderation?

[mountainrman]

Many posters. We have more than a few people threatening to leave because they think another poster is a troll. My problem is they often engage in the same sort of negative posting technique. I.e. they are doing the same thing. I'll be honest, I had to go back and dig up Usenet troll FAQ, and look for anti-troll faq on other forums, to try and get my head back on straight in this matter.



Awwww, man! And I LIKED that part!

I'm glad to see folks hashing this out. There is a lot of poop flying through the air, but some ground-defining work, too.

I am quite serious that, imo, we need to get things on a more even keel, and that will require a larger number of people actively working to be more tolerant.

I mentioned above that I had to go back and go over old Troll/anti-troll faq?

A lot of the "trolling" that happened in usenet just isn't practical in a forum. It doesn't happen. But I've had to look deeper, and I think I'm coming up with some "big picture" thoughts. Y'all may think me a simpleton after reading them, but give me a few minutes, to try and help sort out "what's what".

Troll motivation:
1. To get attention, and cause reponses. (Ok, for talented trolls, the effect on the forum is pretty innocuous for this, imo.)
2. To disrupt a thread, topic, or group of people. (A good example of this is rehashing old talk about Lemond doping). This may not be obvious.
3. To diss another poster or posters, thus "scoring", or counting coup. Examples of this are sarcasm, snark, all those nasty, biting wit answers. Also includes rhetorical techniques and logical fallacies: ad hominem, straw man, cherry picking, etc. They like to use sarcasm to make you feel stupid or defensive.
4. To destroy the forum. (I don't think we often see real examples of this in the CN forum.)

I may add to that list later - but what is the key common ingredient in that list, that forces the use of regulation? When it damages the forum. So, the trolls under #3 are fine, unless they actually cause people to leave the forums. Either by getting them banned or by making them want to leave. We could have ppl insulting each other all day long - if nobody let it bother them. But ppl are human, and they get bothered. But, when the posts either discourage other posters from posting, or discourage newbs from joining in, or encourages existing users to leave . . .Well, I guess that is damage. And we aren't talking about mountainrman here - or I am not. He is only one example. I'm thinking of some REGULAR posters, who think that some other regular poster is the intolerable troll. And it is not like there is just one, either. Everybody is pointing to somebody else. And they all seem to me to engage in pretty much the same behavior. Sometimes people expect other folks to all have a thick skin - but their own skin can be pretty thin at times.

Maybe it all means too much to me - as in I'm taking it too seriously - but when I hear a complaint more than once, from a group I'm purportedly trying to help - I listen. Actually, I listen if I hear it once. It means something to me. And, I try to do something to find the middle ground, where things will work smoothly, with a minimum of friction.

I'm having a hard time doing that at the moment. But, like I said, maybe I'm just getting too involved, and I need to let all the posters figuratively shoot each other. Well, one way or another, it will all work out.

Cheers, y'all!

With all due respect Hiero, the "regular poster" issue is a red herring, and a sore one at that. It should not matter who posts regularly or not, the same rules should apply to all, and that is a major bone of contention.

If you note the content of the original post, there are two fold reasons I have not posted regularly, one of which is a wholly unjustifiable and unreasonable ban of 3 months for something I provably did not do! ( I have been banned for pretty much half the time I have been a member)

And even had I been guilty as charged which I was not - of labelling other members as "historic bad guys" it is still milder than most of the ad hominem rhetoric permitted even here on this thread.

The other reason I slowed posting is that ever since I challenged a couple of "sacred cows" of the clinic, such as a challenge on the integrity of some of what Tygart did, and said , a swarm of established clinic members has descended on every thread since (herd behaviour was clearly at work) with ridicule and ad hominem insults.

All the behaviour you describe in section (3) has followd every post I made in the clinic and attracted such nastiness from other members, that I really do not want to post there again. It is clearly (4) destroying the forum since no newbie is going to put up with it for long, and In the short time here, I have seen a few come and go because of the insulting behaviour of the "regular posters".

And that is the matter I draw to the attention of the owners on this thread.
You fortunately have so far not been the victim of the clinic mob, so you cannot speak for how nasty it is to be on the receiving end of what you think is nnocuous. Bullying in all its forms as is nasty for the recipient. It is not a matter of thick or thin skin.

However , for as long as you are not part of the solution - you are clearly a part of the problem. Just read BroDeals posts above. And I mean really read them. Every single one is and is intended to be ridicule and insult. It does not even stop on this thread. I posted an innocuous piece of advice to a guy buying a bike and he cyberstalked me there with ridicule.

You actually state in a post above his behaviour is trollling, your category 3, whether or not he sees it as such.

Yet you do nothing. Why?

Read BroDeals last post. Whatever nudging may go on in the background, indeed the clear statement you made has no effect at all on these "regular posters".

They challenge your authority in every post by failing to tone it down at all.

And you still do nothing. Nothing short of serious ban will make any difference to such posters, or indeed restore the integrity of moderation here and make it possible for proper discussion to take place. It is not just one poster either.
Look on this thread. At least five posters have come here to post in essence ridicule.

So he reason I am not a regular poster is partly , I spent time out because concerted actions of these trolls got other weak moderators bowing to their clamour to ban the one posting dissenting views, who seemingly did not even read the posts on which they imposed sanction And Secondly I am as you describe in 4 , a newbie unwilling to post because the ad hominem attacks destroy the forum by making unpleasant for newbies.

I am not posting in the clinic , not because I do not have interest there, or because of an idle threat, but because the failure to act against these regular posters makes it a thoroughly unpleasant place to be and IS CERTAINLY driving away posters of content.

You have a chance to try to restore the integrity of the forum, if you act but will you?

So as I said BroDeal here on this thread - is and has consistently ignored every rule of decent posting, and has mixed ridicule, verbal attacks of every form. He has ignored every good natured warning. He has not commented at all on the subject of the thread, that is the reasonable ness of a ban for mentioning "historic bad guys". It is not just him , at least five other posters have posted on this thread with snarky ridicule. The reality is these long standing posters think they are immune from any decency or forum rules. It is your job to prove to them they are not.

Go back to basic please. Stop trying to define "unnacceptable" and focus only on what is acceptable so you do not need complex definitions of trolling. As a forum owner, It is very very simple. Start deleting any post in any of the other forums (other than moderation here) that addresses or refers to other posters at all, including all forms of (3) , except to quote what they say in defense of an argument pertinent to the thread. ONLY reasoned posts about the subject of the thread that address the issue, not the other poster are permissible or acceptable.. All posts that contain any reference to the other poster or his behaviour either directly or by nick name are unacceptable anywhere. Simple. All posts in your category (3) are unacceptable. Ever. Anywhere. Would any of BroDeals posts survive that test?

The complete reverse is happening at present. Ask Airstream! - Anyone who dares comment on a sacred cow of the clinic mob becomes a marked man. Then the fact that every post they then write becomes victim of a torrent of posts in your category (3) , and then that poster is deemed to be troll because they attract such unfavourable reception. In short the clinic is ruled by a group of long standing posters who break every rule to insult view
It is not so much of a "groupthink" as a concerted attack on anyone who dares challenge one of the sacred cows of the clinic, whatever they may later post, all becomes target of the insults.

You can answer the question of whether there is fair moderation here, or anarchy by whether you give BroDeal the ban he deserves for consistent ad hominem attacks and ignoring clear warnings. He seems to think that questioning his motives for posting offensively matter at all to the fact that he should not post offensively. Warnings are being ignored, and worse, he is cyberstalking posts I write elsewhere. Notably recently in a thread on bikes.

He and others like him and unreasonable bans are the reason this "newbie" AKA mountainrman ia unlikely to post again in the clinic. It is not a threat. It is a waste of time,for as long as the moderators allow anarchy to rule. So the failuer of moderators to act against longstanding member rudeness is certainly destroying the forum.

 

[Ripper]

...

The interesting thing, MM, is that you keep on posting the same stuff on this thread, and no one is fully buying it.

Is this place always fair? Ummm, no (but neither is life dude). But there is a lot of discussion that happens as a result of it not being over-moderated. Could it be better? At times yes. But it could be a great deal worse. I will say this - it is a hard place to be a fanboy, especially if you venture into the clinic. Then again, the clinic is really not a place for fanboys

It seems like a reasonable person would understand that the way you are posting is going to draw a reaction. Once or twice to highlight the issue, or direct communications with mods, these would work. But, creating a thread on it and writing essays that really are a bit on the flaming side .... makes me ask - are you just practicing some sophisticated trolling? I am beginning to think yes. You certainly know how to make comments that 'bait' others to react. Then you make a promise not to return, then you return and write an essay. Hmmmmmmmmmm .....

BTW, this not following through on what you say you will do. It opens you up for more criticism.

 

[Race Radio]

intended to be ridicule

I think I get it now. You want to write your ridiculous babble and not have anyone point out how absurd it is. You want us to pretend you actually make sense and have a point.....when you don't. That is not going to happen. Maybe you should start a blog?

Is this your last post?

 

[BroDeal]

Maybe you should start a blog?

These things are best done with a newsletter.

 

[spetsa]

Just wait. He is going to have a year or so to get all worked up before LA even sees a court room. And we think that we have already witnessed full ***.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Is this guy BPC?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Is this guy BPC?

"Stay Frosty"

 

[Zam_Olyas]

"Stay Frosty"

haha "Screwby"

 

[mountainrman]

Just wait. He is going to have a year or so to get all worked up before LA even sees a court room. And we think that we have already witnessed full ***.

Moderators

On a properly moderated forum, Spetsas post would be deleted with prejudice, because it refers to the poster (me) not one of my posts - it does not relate the subject of the thread at all. It clearly violates Hieros rule (3) in that it tries to ridicule. So why is that post still there?

Spetsa, just to help you out.

It is fascinating to see how hopeless clinic mob logic is - and how short clinic mob memories are. The (non) logic goes.
- We don't like his views, they go against credo. ( for reasons we seem to have forgotten)
- So we must ridicule what he says.
- Our credo says, we don't like LA or LA fanboys.
- Ergo, since we don't like him he must be an LA fanboy
- So let us wield standard fanboy insults ( as per the statement above).
The problem and fallacy of mob logic is nowhere have I have spoken out in support of LA because I do not!

So get back on message. It was a different sacred cow of the clinic mantra I violated, that has led to the continuous and ritual clinic mob abuse you seem to want to be part of.

- That is I refuse to Bow to the great god Tygart, or lick his backside as the clinic expect me too.

His conduct raises serious issues, the noticeable difference between what he says and what he does, and the lack of reason in the reasoned decision. Take for example that organised doping in USPS was not instigated by Armstrong, despite Tygart's attempt to portray it as such. Systematic compulsory doping was already there the year before Armstrong even joined. Ask Scott Mercier. Tygart carefully avoids mention of that, it does not suit his mantra.

- So if you must ridicule and join in , (which has no place on a forum) you should start chanting the right mantra. I am a Tygart disliker, not an Armstrong lover. ( and Landis Hater amongst other crimes) I am a heretic, and now you can burn me at the stake, and do what the clinic mob ritually does which is chant abuse for having a reasonable opinion above.

Sadly moderators, that really is how the clinic mob think. It is really nasty to be on the recieving end which is why posters come and then leave. Is that the forum you really want?

 

[Race Radio]

I am a heretic

reported.

Is this your last post?

 

[BroDeal]

Take for example that organised doping in USPS was not instigated by Armstrong, despite Tygart's attempt to portray it as such. Systematic compulsory doping was already there the year before Armstrong even joined. Ask Scott Mercier. Tygart carefully avoids mention of that, it does not suit his mantra.

Here is a great example of why everyone considers this clown a troll. The above statement is a deliberately crafted lie. This is not a matter of a difference of opinion. It is a lie. While some riders doped on USPS before Armstrong joined the team, it was not organized. The team doctor refused to help the riders dope. It was not compulsory. No one was fired because he would not dope. No one had a contract extension turned down because he would not dope. The doping at USPS before Armstrong bears no resemblence to the system that was put in place by Armstrong, Bruyneel, and the dope doctors they brought on board. Mountainrman knows this very well, but his usual tactic is to wrap a kernel of truth with a heavy cladding of misrepresentations to create several pages of refutation.

He uses this tactic over and over then tries to play the victim because the "mob" has come together to point out his lies. This is trolling, not that stuff that hiero2 posted.

 

[mountainrman]

Here is a great example of why everyone considers this clown a troll. The above statement is a deliberately crafted lie. This is not a matter of a difference of opinion. It is a lie. While some riders doped on USPS before Armstrong joined the team, it was not organized. The team doctor refused to help the riders dope. It was not compulsory. No one was fired because he would not dope. No one had a contract extension turned down because he would not dope. The doping at USPS before Armstrong bears no resemblence to the system that was put in place by Armstrong, Bruyneel, and the dope doctors they brought on board. Mountainrman knows this very well, but his usual tactic is to wrap a kernel of truth with a heavy cladding of misrepresentations to create several pages of refutation.

He uses this tactic over and over then tries to play the victim because the "mob" has come together to point out his lies. This is trolling, not that stuff that hiero2 posted.

I prefer facts.

http://www1.skysports.com/cycling/n...-US-Postal-made-him-quit-professional-cycling

Mercier left because of organised doping the year before LA Joined.

Expressing a reasoned opinion is never trolling.
As hiero and bison both agree, BroDeals adhominem attacks certainly are.
And that is a fact on every other properly moderated forum

 

[BroDeal]

I prefer facts.

http://www1.skysports.com/cycling/n...-US-Postal-made-him-quit-professional-cycling

Mercier left because of organised doping the year before LA Joined.

Well, hoisted on the "organized" part but it was not "compulsory". Mercier was not fired because he would not dope. He left on his own because he saw the reality of what was required to compete in Europe. His reason was:

"I was living in South Africa at that time so I flew home and talked to my wife about it. She said, 'make your own decision' and I said, 'I don't want to do this'.

"That's when I decided I didn't want to be a pro."

The point stands. You slipped the word "compulsory" in there to inflame people and draw an equivalence to Armstrong's system.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Control Voltage's Friday Five: Remembering Pete Namlook
November 16 2012, 2:10 PM ET
by Philip Sherburne

After the German ambient pioneer's passing, tracks from Move D, Jochem Paap, and Namlook himself

It's been a sad week in electronic music. On Monday, London's Martin Dawson died, 10 days after suffering an aneurysm in his studio. And yesterday, the ambient pioneer Pete Namlook (Peter Kuhlmann) was reported to have died "peacefully from as-yet-unspecified causes on 8th November," according to a statement his daughter Fabia made to Resident Advisor.

It would be hard to overstate Namlook's impact on the last 20 years of electronic music. While, in many ways, he existed apart — as Allmusic's Sean Cooper wrote, "If most artists in contemporary electronica are like islands unto themselves…Pete 'Namlook' Kuhlmann is a whole continent" — his influence continually fed back into the techno, trance, and ambient scenes. Namlook's career predates the techno revolution of 1989; after studying composition, the Frankfurt musician began playing new-agey synth pop in the trio Romantic Warrior in the mid 1980s. By the early 1990s, he was making rippling trance under a variety of aliases — Syn, Escape, Deltraxx — both solo and in collaboration with colleagues like Dr. Atmo and Atom Heart. But Namlook became best known as a tireless proponent of ambient music, setting aside trance's pile-driving beats and taking up a semi-permanent residence in the chillout rooms of the rave world (back when such things still existed). His label, Fax +49-69/450464 (generally shortened to simply Fax — the full name was identical with his actual fax number) kept up a ridiculously prolific release schedule, racking up more than 400 releases between 1993 and 2012, and it bridged styles and generations. Bill Laswell, Klaus Schulze, Tetsu Inoue, Uwe Schmidt (a.k.a. Atom Heart), Charles Uzzell-Edwards, David Moufang (a.k.a., Move D), Richie Hawtin, Geir Jenssen (a.k.a. Biosphere), Dandy Jack, Pascal F.E.O.S., Jonah Sharp (a.k.a., Spacetime Continuum), Mixmaster Morris, Steve Stoll, Jochem Paap (a.k.a., Speedy J), and Anthony Rother all recorded for the label, often in collaboration with Namlook himself.

I'm not deeply versed in the Fax catalog — the label's hyper-prolific output always slightly intimidated me, to be honest — but several of the label's releases have made a strong impact on me over the years. Thus, as a small tribute to Namlook, here's a selection of my favorites.

Pete Namlook & Tetsu Inoue Shades of Orion 2 (Fax, 1995)
Somewhere between Brian Eno at his most ethereal and new age at its most abstracted, this 71-minute recording feels like a snapshot of infinity. Pipe organs, cathedral reverb, water sounds, and occasional electronic squiggles envelop drifting tones that sound like pitched-down whale song; spelled out, the list of elements may look hackneyed, but the effect is sublime. Music for an isolation tank.

The Fires of Ork "Gebirge" (Fax, 1993)
Namlook and Geir Jenssen (a.k.a., Biosphere) got together in 1993 to record The Fires of Ork, titled in reference to Blade Runner. The album's heavier cuts recall a time when dance music and ambient weren't mutually exclusive: "Talk to the Stars" begins with plangent pads and slowly gathers strength with a nervous acid burble before unfurling 4/4 kicks and trance arpeggios; both versions of "The Fires of Ork" play bleepy, atonal synths off reverb-soaked breakbeats, anticipating Biosphere's classic 1995 track "Novelty Waves." But the highlight here is "Gebirge" ("Mountains"), a 21-minute expanse of heavy pedal tones, measured pulses, and soft, eerie electronic chirps that peel off like birds darting through your peripheral vision.

Move D & Namlook "Drop Kick" (Fax, 1996)
Dave Moufang (a.k.a., Move D) and Namlook recorded more than 20 albums together; theirs was a particularly fruitful meeting of minds and styles, with Moufang's sinewy, house-inspired drum programming rippling through Namlook's aquatic sound-worlds. "Drop Kick," from 1996's Exploring the Psychedelic Landscape, is among their more rhythmically-oriented collaborations; its slinky, morphing beats and rubbery incidentals sound uncannily like the kind of music Ricardo Villalobos would begin making a few years later. A stunning example of truly psychedelic dance music.

Move D & Namlook "The Art of Love"
The title cut from 2005's Move D / Namlook VIII – The Art of Love sounds like a response to Pole's crackling ambient dub. But their synths are fuller and more tuneful; a horn line that sounds like Jon Hassell slinks through the upper reaches of the track while languid guitar tremolo nods to David Lynch.

Jochem Paap "Un-Klkkn" (Fax, 1999)
This isn't a Namlook production, but I have to include it if only because Jochem Paap's albums Vrs-Mbnt-Pcs 9598 I and Vrs-Mbnt-Pcs 9598 II, from 1999, served as one of my first introductions to the Fax label. I was a fan of the blistering techno Paap had recorded as Speedy J for Warp and Mute, but nothing prepared me for the beatless bliss and psychedelic drones of these two albums, which are right up there with Aphex Twin's Selected Ambient Works, Vol. II. (The similarity is probably no coincidence — just read Paap's titles aloud, and you'll see the implicit homage there.) For years, the last thing I did before bed was to cue up both discs in the CD changer. Whatever fantastic dreams I experienced in that period, I owe them to Namlook.

 

[Race Radio]

I prefer facts.

Did you read the link?

Pedro Celaya offering me steroids for training.

Banned for life by USADA. Thanks Travis!

You are welcome to find some way to rationalize wonderboy's doping but don't expect us to buy into it. Most here understand that USADA's case targeted a group of people who ran an organized doping program for years. Pretending it was all about one guy is a nice way to get attention but is not reality

 

[Hugh Januss]

I am a Tygart disliker, not an Armstrong lover. ( and Landis Hater amongst other crimes) I am a heretic, and now you can burn me at the stake, and do what the clinic mob ritually does which is chant abuse for having a reasonable opinion above.

OK, I would say liar and troll, but YMMV.

 

[peloton]

I take your word that you will never post here again, problem solved.

 

[mountainrman]

Pretending it was all about one guy is a nice way to get attention but is not reality

Eureka. We finally agree on something.
That is the issue. It was not about one guy.

It was clearly organised and ingrained in USPS before LA ever came on stage, so who in reality organised it? My question :was the brainchild of doping in USPS Weisel? - Mercier said (see Hamiltons Book) that "the decision was made at the top"? And how can it ever have happened without him? Weisel got really annoyed with bad performances, once leaving his own riders behind so he could watch the action at the front from the team car, and was certainly an autocrat. So To blame Armstrong and his cohorts for all of it even in USPS , in my view is far too simplistic.

I hope the DoJ get Weisel on the stand, and perhaps we may learn the truth.

 

[spetsa]

Eureka. We finally agree on something.
That is the issue. It was not about one guy.

It was clearly organised and ingrained in USPS before LA ever came on stage, so who in reality organised it? My question :was the brainchild of doping in USPS Weisel? - Mercier said (see Hamiltons Book) that "the decision was made at the top"? And how can it ever have happened without him? Weisel got really annoyed with bad performances, once leaving his own riders behind so he could watch the action at the front from the team car, and was certainly an autocrat. So To blame Armstrong and his cohorts for all of it even in USPS , in my view is far too simplistic.

I hope the DoJ get Weisel on the stand, and perhaps we may learn the truth.

Do we need to tell you of whom the Board of Directors was made up?

 

[sittingbison]

ok, mountainrman has said his piece. it's now gone completely off track including by mountainrman and insults abound including in the OP.

this thread is now pointless, I am closing it now before it gets completely out of hand. if an owner wants to respond they can reopen it and do so. I'm not holding my breath.

bison