Pantani - most overrated cyclist of all time

[boalio]

No doubt he was seriously talented on the bike. But if he hadn't doped would he have become the great climber he is heralded as? Could he have had the performances he had without EPO, etc?

You can't turn a donkey in to a racehorse.

 

[mikeNphilly]

during his entire 10-year professional career, besides stage victories, pantani won only 2 out of over 30 most important races available each year. 4 out of his 16 stage wins in the grand tours were tainted by the proven use of doping in the giro from which he was expelled and one, on mt ventoux, was a gift from lance armstrong.
His bronze medal in the world's was marred by the positive doping test result in a race a few days later (65 hematocrit reading). These are the palmares of one of the greatest cyclists in the history of mankind (i almost forgot one stage win in the tour of suisse). Let's not forget that he begged his colleagues not to boycott the tour in which he was the leader.
Why did he dope in the giro after such easy victories in the previous one and the tour? Why did he fail to win these races previously or afterwards? The answer is, that, without doping, he was a man of very limited capabilities, his sole cycling talent being a relatively brief spurt (a few kilometers) up the final climb.
Consider this: He never won the red polka-dot jersey in the tour (one must be consistent to do it). Outisde the 2 tours that he won and the one that he was caught in (all three back to back), whenever he tried to attack at an early phase of a mountainous stage, he was caught, usually losing much time to the leaders or flatly abandoning the race. Even if he attacked too early on the final climb, he was likely to be caught and passed by others (eg. By indurain, leblanc, ullrich). That's also why he never won a mountain itt. Such stages were too long for his stamina. Similarly he was unable to maintain good form in back-to-back stages, winning one and then losing a bunch in the next.
Then a sudden, temporary metamorphosis occurred in the three consecutive tours. We all know, how it ended.
Marco pantani probably holds the world record for the number of times a cyclist was caught for doping offenses; 3 suspensions during his career and twice after death. The post-mortem examination showed illegal substances in his system. In the operacion puerto, he was found to have been prescribed twice as much doping as others, who received 2-year suspensions. Moreover, he used cocaine. Remember, what happened to ullrich and boonen when they were caught using recreational drugs outside competition?
He was one of the 2 racers caught in possesson of illegal substances during the all-out search during a giro. The other one, dario frigo, was called "scum" by the cycling world, while pantani remained a hero. Despite all this, he never admitted cheating.
His record achievements at the alp d'huez don't mean much. One can concentrate on this one climb, saving energy during this and the previous stages and start an all-out effort from the point at which the time starts running. It's diffferent to cover the last ascent after a 200 km solo ride with 6 intermediate climbs from racing only during the last ascent, catching up with the others who attacked earlier.
How about his virtues other than cheating, limited capabilities and meager palmares?
He must be found guilty of one of the most heinous offenses a cyclist can commit. While riding in a giro, on the deciding, most difficult mountain stage, he kept charging on the climbs, leaving his team leader, garzelli, exposed to the attacks by his rivals for the overall title, theoretically better climbers, casagrande and simoni, thus putting in peril his teammate's chances for the overall vioctory for the sake his own stage triumph. While simoni was able to keep pace with pantani, other racers were poking jokes at garzelli on account of his 'loyal' domestique. Luckily for garzelli, the stage ended with a long descent, the three contenders regrouped and crossed the finish line together. Eventually, garzelli claimed the overall victory during the itt. Pantani, meanwhile, despite being seemingly the strongest on the day when he abandoned his comrade, failed to win the stage; one more proof of his lack of stamina. After the race, garzelli thanked pantani for helping him in achieving the overall victory. Was it sarcasm or was he blinded by the cult of his domestique? Pantani was consistently dropped early during that giro, except for the stage he tired to win. Even in the mountainous itt, which directly followed, he finished somewhere outside the top 30. Despite his superb stamina, the poor chap must have been tired after the previous day's effort, plus the itt was over 30 km long.
Let's not forget pantani's other talents. After all, he proved to be a cemedian and a prima donna. After a fall at a slow speed up an ascent, in which a number of others also 'suffered', he was the only one that didn't immediately get back on the bike, but sat down at the roadside making tragic faces to the camera for a couple of minutes. He was at this point outside the contention for the top 10 overall and didn't suffer during the fall in the least. After the giro he demanded to be included in the tour, evidently as the only competent person to 'check out how good lance armstrong really is', as he put it. He just had checked dariusz baranowski to find out that he is slightly better than himself, finishing the giro 12th and 13th, respectively.
After the mount ventoux stage, where armstrong stopped pedaling on the last uphill meters, allowing pantani to win, at the post-stage press conference the victor declared simply that he won on account of being better racer than lance.
When he lost his first giro to berzin, being in the meantime the virtual leader, some commentators pointedly explained, that he made a mistake by slowing down. Had i not made such mistakes, i would have beaten eddy merckx.

tldr......

 

[Cloxxki]

Funny enough though the most interesting tours were probably 86, 87 and 89. Pre EPO days. Other than 2003, what other really interesting tour has there been?

Sorry to break it to you, but by '89 EPO was very much a factor already, perhaps just not common knowledge to all pro's. Look at the '88 Calgary Winter Olympics results. Some interesting anomolies there, athletes shooting to the top of their form, and retiring shortly after, before cashing in on their fame with subsequent world champs, etc.
A friend of mine was possibly the first pharmacisct in the world to write a thesis (or anything) about EPO as a sure threat to fair play in sports. He wrote that in the mid 80's. He considers the big victors of Calgary the "early adopters".
I wouldn't know about cycling, but those who know the results by heart may have their thoughts about it.

 

[St. Elia]

Pantani's ego COULD have been partially collapsed by Lance. "Lance" could not even finish the Tour his first 2 attempts! He was a DNF, DNF, 36th, DNF his first 4! And Lance's total FTP (time trialing) was not great either. Watch Indurain pass Lance like a BMW M5 going by a Toyota on the Autobahn:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1b44d_indurain-vs-armstrong-brutal_sport

Pantani, as I said in his own mental state must have been seriously disturbed by personally witnessing this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q38Gyjv4EE

Lance weighed 35 pounds more than Marco... It would take Lance 100 more watts to keep up with Marco. maybe 125 watts more to catch him. Now Marco was no idiot. He knew that "lance Armstrong" had little Grand Tour talent and at best modest "mule" role in the mountains. But....

I did read some where that lance was generating some where in the 400's an Marco was in the 300's but obviously both had nearly the same watts per KG. (6.7 or something I remember). How Lance got there is anyone's guess but he did lose a lot of weight after his cancer and he already had the engine.

 

[Anonymous]

You may wish to read your own post and consider whether those two adjectives apply. Could be instructive.

nah.. too busy trying to work out who you are...

 

[Cloxxki]

I did read some where that lance was generating some where in the 400's an Marco was in the 300's but obviously both had nearly the same watts per KG. (6.7 or something I remember). How Lance got there is anyone's guess but he did lose a lot of weight after his cancer and he already had the engine.

Consider that in modern road cycling, most riders have bikes close to the 6.8kg minimum. Heavier riders with the same W/kg are at an advantage.
I've always had light mountainbikes, and never felt than my 83kg was a hindrance when climbing in races, long or short, steep or shallow.
Additonally, heavier riders (less so tall ones) have an advantage overcoming air drag.

There's more exceptional to Lance, apart from the mental inability to lose. He's got exceptional (mutant like) tolerance for lactate pain. He can ride a couple of minutes at a really high pace, that's where he makes up most time I suppose. Folks like Leipheimer and formerly Ullrich are basically pinned to the ground when others accelerate. Until the latter start to get into acute oxygen deprivation, they can open a gap.

 

[Animal]

Consider that in modern road cycling, most riders have bikes close to the 6.8kg minimum. Heavier riders with the same W/kg are at an advantage.
I've always had light mountainbikes, and never felt than my 83kg was a hindrance when climbing in races, long or short, steep or shallow.
Additonally, heavier riders (less so tall ones) have an advantage overcoming air drag.

There's more exceptional to Lance, apart from the mental inability to lose. He's got exceptional (mutant like) tolerance for lactate pain. He can ride a couple of minutes at a really high pace, that's where he makes up most time I suppose. Folks like Leipheimer and formerly Ullrich are basically pinned to the ground when others accelerate. Until the latter start to get into acute oxygen deprivation, they can open a gap.

Where are you getting this stuff from?

 

[rhubroma]

Sorry to break it to you, but by '89 EPO was very much a factor already, perhaps just not common knowledge to all pro's. Look at the '88 Calgary Winter Olympics results. Some interesting anomolies there, athletes shooting to the top of their form, and retiring shortly after, before cashing in on their fame with subsequent world champs, etc.
A friend of mine was possibly the first pharmacisct in the world to write a thesis (or anything) about EPO as a sure threat to fair play in sports. He wrote that in the mid 80's. He considers the big victors of Calgary the "early adopters".
I wouldn't know about cycling, but those who know the results by heart may have their thoughts about it.

The first scientific studies on EPO and performance, from what I've read and been told, were done by Dottore Concone in Italy in the early eighties. Supposedly Moser was on it at the 84 hour record in Mexico City. So you are probably right that it had made it into the pro peleton allready by 89, and not the early 90's, as commonly thought.

Conconi went on to mentor the notorious Dr. Michele Ferrari, among whose patients in the 90's was Lance Armstrong.

 

[elapid]

I did read some where that lance was generating some where in the 400's an Marco was in the 300's but obviously both had nearly the same watts per KG. (6.7 or something I remember). How Lance got there is anyone's guess but he did lose a lot of weight after his cancer and he already had the engine.

No, he did NOT lose weight. He did not lose body fat. His VO2 max, lactate threshold, and FTP did not change pre- and post-cancer. This is all well documented in a published paper about Lance by Coyle in the Journal of Applied Physiology in 2005 (also, read the paper and not the abstract because Coyle's conclusions are flawed because of bad science and statistics). As BigBoat will tell you, his engine is not that of a GT champion with a VO2 max and FTP that would place him physiologically in the middle of the peloton.

 

[nmwildog]

eczema is a disease

Had I not made such mistakes, I would have beaten Eddy Merckx.

hey eczema, it must be tough to be the only one with all this knowledge rattling around in your head, (Obviously plenty of empty space in there). As you can see from the vast majority of replies to your post you are a lonely voice in the wilderness. There is a reason for that, and not the one your ego will be quick to supply. Next time please try editing your uninformed rant a bit, you don't need that many words to say the obvious. I don't like Pantani would have covered it, and made you seem less of a maroon. Rather than follow your lead and send 2 pages of explanations why, I will simply say, I loved watching Marco, he was one of the greatest climbers cycling will ever see. I feel sorry for you that your prejudices can't let you admit that. As to your statement about Eddy;
He couldn't slow down enough for you to beat him even if he was dead.

 

[BroDeal]

The first scientific studies on EPO and performance, from what I've read and been told, were done by Dottore Concone in Italy in the early eighties. Supposedly Moser was on it at the 84 hour record in Mexico City. So you are probably right that it had made it into the pro peleton allready by 89, and not the early 90's, as commonly thought.

No. In 1984 Moser used blood transfusions for his hour record. In 1994, in his early forties, he bested his old record, presumably using EPO.

 

[rhubroma]

No. In 1984 Moser used blood transfusions for his hour record. In 1994, in his early forties, he bested his old record, presumably using EPO.

Ok, thank's for the clarification if that is indeed the case. Perhaps I misunderstood my sources. But I know someone who knows Conconi, and who assures me that Moser was injected with the stuff at a very early date. Was the first Italian pro to be given EPO.

 

[yourwelcome]

hey eczema, it must be tough to be the only one with all this knowledge rattling around in your head, (Obviously plenty of empty space in there). As you can see from the vast majority of replies to your post you are a lonely voice in the wilderness. There is a reason for that, and not the one your ego will be quick to supply. Next time please try editing your uninformed rant a bit, you don't need that many words to say the obvious. I don't like Pantani would have covered it, and made you seem less of a maroon. Rather than follow your lead and send 2 pages of explanations why, I will simply say, I loved watching Marco, he was one of the greatest climbers cycling will ever see. I feel sorry for you that your prejudices can't let you admit that. As to your statement about Eddy;
He couldn't slow down enough for you to beat him even if he was dead.

I completely agree - try editing uninformed 'maroonic' rants before posting ;-)

 

[Anonymous]

I completely agree - try editing uninformed 'maroonic' rants before posting ;-)

nah.. maroon is fine.. its a very common insult in some parts..

 

[BroDeal]

Ok, thank's for the clarification if that is indeed the case. Perhaps I misunderstood my sources. But I know someone who knows Conconi, and who assures me that Moser was injected with the stuff at a very early date. Was the first Italian pro to be given EPO.

Moser definitely used blood transfusions for his 1994 record. Conconi has admitted it, and I think Moser has admitted it. It was not against the rules at the time. Moser was probably a guinea pig for Conconi's experiments with transfusions.

The work with EPO would have been done a few years later, probably in the 1989 to 1990 time frame. Moser probably retired before the work with EPO began. Riders like Indurain were working with Conconi during that time.

Moser came out of retirement to retake the hour record because Obree had broken his 1984 mark. Since Moser beat his old record even though he was ten years older and he was using transfusions to set his old record, it is a sure bet he used the latest doping tech of the early 90s, which was EPO.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

EPO hit XC skiing probably in 1988, but not nearly as controlled as in about 1992 when the numbers really started to fly, and some skiers were ending up dead from sludge blood. In the early 1990's the Norwegians had everyone crushed. They had the best technology, best athletes, best training plans, everything. By 1994 EPO use was so rampant everyone had caught them, or passed them. Their "dream team" was even beaten on their home turf in the Olympics that year by the Italians whose skiers that were used to placing in the top 10, were now the best. It wasn't until after that they wised up. EPO's been a problem ever since, almost as bad as cycling. Per Eloffson was the most skilled and beautiful skier, but the Gilles DeLion of his sport, refused to dope and was left behind and had to retire at 27.

I would have to say that to one degree or another EPO had entered cycling before 1991 as well, though by that time, or especially 1992, it was widespread and it's use much more refined.

 

[gatete]

This to me has been the most honest thread I've seen fo far, full of proven facts and then also full of proven styles, tastes and stuff that makes a guy in a bike fun to watch, Pantani is to this day fun to watch yes I'm sure he doped, but then I wonder how objective I am when I see riders that I just like for the hell of it? Basso doped and I for some reason still root for him, I rooted for Ulrich, don't ask me why I just like the style reason why at this time I'm a AC fan, YES I hear the doping innuendos surrounding Contador but I put that aside with the hope of maybe not this rider, and frankly if he ever gets caught I'll wait for his 2 years to be over and cheer for his return, some people may say that it's unfair for the clean rider and you know what, they will be right, but profesionals of any sport are linked by talent and definitely style that draws people's attention without it they are just good at something but not fun at all to watch.

 

[Anonymous]

+1 gatete

Just an observation... it's funny how people vehemently defend their heroes as hard as people attack them. You see that with Lance fans and with Pantani fans.

It's also funny how Pantani fans will call Lance a doper yet make up excuses or try to justify Pantani's use of doping products. And before you b!tch, the same goes for Lance fans.

But like gatate said: "profesionals of any sport are linked by talent and definitely style that draws people's attention..." Some people like the style of Pantani while others like the style of Armstrong. And frankly, I doubt there will be anything you can say that'll change the minds of either side.

But racing is racing and we all love to watch the pros do their thing.

 

[gatete]

+1 gatete

.

But racing is racing and we all love to watch the pros do their thing.

And if there is any doubt, on what your're saying by others, please reffer them to Mount Ventoux 2000, different styles plenty to talk and plenty to like even if the stars of that show were in some way or another Doping stain atlethes.

 

[hfer07]

This to me has been the most honest thread I've seen fo far, full of proven facts and then also full of proven styles, tastes and stuff that makes a guy in a bike fun to watch, Pantani is to this day fun to watch yes I'm sure he doped, but then I wonder how objective I am when I see riders that I just like for the hell of it? Basso doped and I for some reason still root for him, I rooted for Ulrich, don't ask me why I just like the style reason why at this time I'm a AC fan, YES I hear the doping innuendos surrounding Contador but I put that aside with the hope of maybe not this rider, and frankly if he ever gets caught I'll wait for his 2 years to be over and cheer for his return, some people may say that it's unfair for the clean rider and you know what, they will be right, but profesionals of any sport are linked by talent and definitely style that draws people's attention without it they are just good at something but not fun at all to watch.

Pantani was like a "rock star" in every single aspect---a human being with that magic spell and charisma at the pinnacle of his career, that everybody wanted more of him-- so exiting to contemplate his achievement, but what mattered was his unique style, the gracious & powerful movements to ride away from the competition--so delightful--then money and fame came along with vanity and excess...bad habits picked up with the wrong crowd, and then he started loosing sense of purpose, choosing when & where to train & compete, got caught in controversy and basically believed he could always "come back"..... then he found himself isolated, troubled & misunderstood by the media, the critics & most of all--- in conflict with himself---blaming the entire world for his misery-- without anybody to convince him wrong of his direction---- and like many rock stars, his downturn turned into a horror tale which nobody wants to speak of, but everybody knew he had problems & the cause of them... just witnesses of what it was to come for him ......

R. I. P. Marco Pantani

 

[Angliru]

I think part of what possibly caused the ultimate downfall Pantani was that while he was guilty of doping, the level of punishment, shame and humiliation that he was subjected to in comparison with his other fellow cyclists that were also guilty of the same was far, far from equal. One could say that his punishment was equal to the level of fame that he achieved. To me he was selected as the whipping boy, the scapegoat to show that a true crackdown on cheating was taking place, which was quite far from the truth. Unfortunately he just was not personally able to handle the pressure that resulted from the blow to his reputation. I've bought the well known book that details his life, his rise and fall but I have yet to finish it.

I think most importantly is the joy that he brought for so many with his style of riding and attacking in the mountains. To complain that he was a manufactured talent is to do him a grave misjustice.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

The reason why I registerd on this forum was this post/topic.Here we go.

During his entire 10-year professional career, besides stage victories, Pantani won only 2 out of over 30 most important races available each year.

First of all, what are the most important races each year? Giro/Tour/Vuelta?

If so, classical riders should stop cycling right now don't u think?

Even so, winning the Giro/Tour double is quite a performance, I think.

4 out of his 16 stage wins in the grand tours were tainted by the proven use of doping in the Giro from which he was expelled

Not proven.

one, on Mt Ventoux, was a gift from Lance Armstrong.

Are we talking about the doped to the max Armstrong vs the out of shape, fighting like a lion Pantani? The last man who made Armstrong nervous and causing him a breakdown? He even had to call Ferrari to check if Pantani could make it all the way to Morzine.

His bronze medal in the World's was marred by the positive doping test result in a race a few days later (65 hematocrit reading).

Even more laughable. Pantani got hit by a car in Milan - Turin in 1995, just after the worlds, broke his leg badly, needed two surgeries and recorded a hematocrit of 60. Which can be deduced to the high altitude in Colombia which increases the hematocrit with 8 or 9 %.

No positive, no conviction.

Let's not forget that he begged his colleagues not to boycott the Tour in which he was the leader

Where is the proof?

Why did he dope in the Giro after such easy victories in the previous one and the Tour? Why did he fail to win these races previously or afterwards? The answer is, that, without doping, he was a man of very limited capabilities, his sole cycling talent being a relatively brief spurt (a few kilometers) up the final climb.

U clearly haven't seen the Giro of 1994, were u even bourn then?

Consider this: He never won the red polka-dot jersey in the Tour (one must be consistent to do it).

Virenque won it seven times, what is ur point?

He never won the red polka-dot jersey in the Tour (one must be consistent to do it). Outisde the 2 tours that he won and the one that he was caught in (all three back to back), whenever he tried to attack at an early phase of a mountainous stage, he was caught, usually losing much time to the leaders or flatly abandoning the race.

SAme 'argument' as just above. Same answer.
U must be a fanboy of Sir Lance who is still bothered why a little doped Italian is more loved than his posterhero who broke down due to that little Italian in 2000.

Even if he attacked too early on the final climb, he was likely to be caught and passed by others (eg. by Indurain, Leblanc, Ullrich).

Happened twice, by a doped up Indurain and Telekom EPO boy Ullrich, again no argument there.

Marco Pantani probably holds the world record for the number of times a cyclist was caught for doping offenses; 3 suspensions during his career and twice after death.

Pantani got one two week health ban, the rest was always thrown out of court. Again no arguments.

The post-mortem examination showed illegal substances in his system.

Cocaine, a recreational drug. What internet trolls like u dont know is that the postmortem didn't show any damage to the bone marrow, a clear indication of no using of doping througout a long period.

In the Operacion Puerto, he was found to have been prescribed twice as much doping as others, who received 2-year suspensions.

proof?

Remember, what happened to Ullrich and Boonen when they were caught using recreational drugs outside competition?

Nothing happened.

He was one of the 2 racers caught in possesson of illegal substances during the all-out search during a Giro. The other one, Dario Frigo, was called "scum" by the cycling world, while Pantani remained a hero. Despite all this, he never admitted cheating.

And why is that u think, if u are even able to think.


This is just a laughable thread.

Yes, Pantani used epo, off course, everyone does since 1995 if u want to survive in the pro - peloton. Calling him the most overrated cyclist is a joke. Who came around when the 50% rule came in place, that means everybody got the same playing field? Maybe the most 'equal' Tour and Giro of the last 20 years were those of 1998. Won by the little Italian hero, who always be a hero when sir Lance will be proven a zero.

That must sting for some people.

addio Marco, l'Imperatore del Mortirolo

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

thank you. the topicname alone makes me more mad than anything. pantani was the biggest climbing talent and cyclingtalent we have ever seen. he killed pro riders at age 17 in climbs as a junior!!! there are videos of it on youtube even and in the 80s before we ever saw epo.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Can this thread be lock? thank you.

 

[Ferminal]

This thread is three years old, OP not been around for two. Anyone is welcome to start a fresh Pantani thread here (or in the Clinic if you want broader scope), but this one is done.