• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

Pantani - most overrated cyclist of all time

Page 2 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Mar 10, 2009
272
2
0
Visit site
After his death, his girlfriend admitted to the press that he had doped during his cycling career. This is proof enough.

I think however, that no Italian cyclist was more entertaining to watch than Chiappucci. The guy was probably also doped, but he would attack anywhere and at anytime and also had the endurance for it. Ok he never won the tour, but was exciting to watch.

Pantani was also nice to watch, but I remember in 94 when he got caught and passed by Leblanc and Indurain, he looks at his speedo and shakes his head as if to say "impossible, they must be doped" (probably true too). Seemed a bit of a sore loser.

I can't wait til Ullrich brings his book out (after the 10yr period is up). I think there will be some nice reading there).
 
May 16, 2009
6
0
0
Visit site
There is so much factually wrong about your post its barely worth bothering with, but i will say, whilst you are on a roll, why dont you start a campaign for Virenque to give back most of his KOM jerseys, Riis to actually return his ill gotten Tour winning Maillot Juane, Leblanc, whom you mentioned, to return his rainbow jersey) etc etc. For all the better, more worthy riders you claim than Pantani worthy of accolades and fond memories , there are riders who won through cheating who arent referred to as dopers, such as Chiappucci (79th in 89 to 2nd the year after? Come on), and who arent the targets of silly rants such as this. Let the man rest in peace, and i for one will always be a fan.
 
Funky looks and a nice slime will make you a hero, what ever you do, which-ever you do. Cycling is so hypocrit. One offence, multiple standards.
If you've never won anything without world class riders fighting you for it, let alone without reasonable doubt of big cheating, you're not to be considered a hero. It's not good for the sport, and the youngster learning about those who helped shaped their sport.

And Valverde is still winning races in B-level pro races. A great hero, of course. We need to be easy on him, life at the top is not easy. We need to even support him, poor fellow always being under fire.

Edit :
I was thinking of Virenque as well. A hero who shouldn't be. denying, denying, denying. And never really doing anything special once EPO testing came into force.

In today's cycling, we get to see some of the old 90's stars that were likely clean all along, by being able to still race at the top, while being tested much more strictly. We get to see young riders make a fist, riding solo for long, as in the (really) old days. Pure talent again is the main deciding factor in cycling success, not your moral development.
 
Apr 25, 2009
4
0
0
Visit site
Panani in Sidney Olympics?

It’s clear from the comments that none of you denies the facts and that your judgment is shaped largely by emotions. The most damaging facts, in my opinion, like Pantani’s antics and bahaviour towards Garzelli and Armstrong, you choose to ignore. Some call my arguments stupid. Claiming that results don’t really matter doesn’t seem much wiser either. Some of you got the facts wrong. Here are the palmarès from the so called classics for Pantani and Armstrong.

PANTANI
8, 18 Liège-Bastogne-Liège
5 Flèche Wallonne

ARMSTRONG
1, 2, 14 Clasica San Sebastian
1 Flèche Wallonne
2, 3, 5, 9, 10, 14 Meisterschaft von Zürich
4, 5, 20 Wincanton Classic
2, 2, 6 Liège-Bastogne-Liège
2, 4, 8, 13, 17 Amstel Gold Race
11 Milan-San-Remo

I just remembered something. Perhaps somebody can explain, why Panani represented Italy in the Sidney Olympics, which, by the way, was a flat race? He did not make the top 150 in the UCI rankings at that time and there were probably about 30 Italian riders ranked higher. Remember Pantani’s response to the critics? “I’ll show you what I’m going there for!”. He did indeed… came in 69th. It might have cost Italy a medal. What more proof of his being overrated is needed?
 
Indeed. Nobody is denying that Pantani cheated.

But he was probably a more sensitive soul than some in cycling. That seems to recur among climbers for some reason. The fall from grace, and derision directed at him drove him towards death. It should not have ended like that for him.
 
czeczma said:
Pantani won only 2 out of over 30 most important races available each year. 4 out of his 16 stage wins in the grand tours were tainted by the proven use of doping in the Giro from which he was expelled and one, on Mt Ventoux, was a gift from Lance Armstrong.
...
How about his virtues other than cheating, limited capabilities and meager palmares?

Well he is dead and this just is sports.. I won't speak ill of him.

If you applied the same filter to a lot of current riders, you wouldn't have many favorites to talk about. I really can't think of a terribly dominant, completely clean rider at the moment. Boonen comes to mind, he's won a lot of important races but he uses recreational drugs, at least, who knows what else he does.

Pantani is captivating for more reasons than just wins. He's almost a classical Italian rider, he embraced the tifosi, he'd say what they wanted him to say in the press. He'd make grandiose claims and promises and then sometimes, he'd deliver on them. I think in the more American style of simply counting wins, Pantani isn't that fascinating but the true fans of the sport (the folks that realize it's a career maker simply to take a stage in a GT) Pantani was spectacular. He won in the big mountains, he'd fly away and nobody could catch him. It's a very sexy style of racing, it's not the time-trial and attrition racing that is so popular. Plus, he doubled, that alone puts him in the most elite of the elite company.
 
Mar 10, 2009
272
2
0
Visit site
Oh well if Pantani isn't remember for the champion mountain climber that he was, he will always be remembered for that awesome rap song that he sung. Quite catchy.

I don't know if doping makes cycling more interesting to watch or not, but I still enjoy watching it. Funny enough though the most interesting tours were probably 86, 87 and 89. Pre EPO days. Other than 2003, what other really interesting tour has there been?
 
Mar 17, 2009
77
0
0
Visit site
I will raise an issue about the 'gifting' of the Ventoux stage. All LA did was not contest the finish, and there's no telling what might have happened if he had. Pantani might have held him off.

At the end of the day, it was a two rider breakaway on a deadly stage. Anyone who dismisses that as a gift should try to ride Mt Ventoux. I can't say I blame him for getting hot under the collar over that one.

He was a very graceful rider, and he had a bit of a showman in him, like Cippo. We need some more outrageous Italian characters, not obnoxious like Ricco.

Agree, 2003 was the last interesting tour, and before that, the LeMond tours. Still, this year's Giro has been quite interesting.
 
May 8, 2009
12
0
0
Visit site
czeczma said:
It’s clear from the comments that none of you denies the facts and that your judgment is shaped largely by emotions.

Now, that hits the nail on the head. You've got it. Only, I fail to see, why this is a problem.
People like Pantani are not rated (or overrated) but admired. Admiration and fascination are emotional qualities.You can not extrapolate a rightful amount of fascination from somebodys palmares and "adjust" collective memories accordingly. Emotions don't work this way. Marketers must accept this. Even L A had to accept this.

And anyway, it's too late now.
 
Apr 1, 2009
1,488
0
0
Visit site
The best looking rider on the pedals ever. Greatest climber of his generation, doping or not. As for him being overrated, I don't think he is. I wouldn't rate him as an all-time great rider along Merckx, Coppi, Anquetil or Hinault. I don't think there are many that would.
I would definitely rate him as an all-time great climber.
Doping? The guy paid the highest price, when so many others continued to ride and win big, simply because he had a conscience.
As so many said before, let him rest in peace.
 
Apr 1, 2009
1,488
0
0
Visit site
slowoldman said:
That would be Fausto Coppi.

RIP Marco Pantani.

On the pedals, as in out of the saddle. Just my humble subjective opinion.
Coppi looked great both in and out of the saddle, but my vote goes to Pantani.
 
Mar 11, 2009
664
0
0
Visit site
Zoncolan said:
The best looking rider on the pedals ever. Greatest climber of his generation, doping or not. As for him being overrated, I don't think he is. I wouldn't rate him as an all-time great rider along Merckx, Coppi, Anquetil or Hinault. I don't think there are many that would.
I would definitely rate him as an all-time great climber.
Doping? The guy paid the highest price, when so many others continued to ride and win big, simply because he had a conscience.
As so many said before, let him rest in peace.

This is exactly how I feel about Pantani.
Such a tragic end for a great rider may he rest in peace.
 
Mar 19, 2009
2,703
3
0
www.ridemagnetic.com
Pantani overrated?.......pffff, whatever. czeczma, have you ever been to Italy? If you had a true understanding of the Italian Tifosi your perspective would have a different ring to it. Gotta give you credit though for having the balls to write that BS, but now you've got a few million rabid Tifosi lining up to p!ss on your grave when you kick the bucket.
 
May 13, 2009
692
1
0
Visit site
czeczma said:
During his entire 10-year professional career, besides stage victories, Pantani won only 2 out of over 30 most important races available each year. 4 out of his 16 stage wins in the grand tours were tainted by the proven use of doping in the Giro from which he was expelled and one, on Mt Ventoux, was a gift from Lance Armstrong.
His bronze medal in the World's was marred by the positive doping test result in a race a few days later (65 hematocrit reading). These are the palmares of one of the greatest cyclists in the history of mankind (I almost forgot one stage win in the Tour of Suisse). Let's not forget that he begged his colleagues not to boycott the Tour in which he was the leader.
Why did he dope in the Giro after such easy victories in the previous one and the Tour? Why did he fail to win these races previously or afterwards? The answer is, that, without doping, he was a man of very limited capabilities, his sole cycling talent being a relatively brief spurt (a few kilometers) up the final climb.
Consider this: He never won the red polka-dot jersey in the Tour (one must be consistent to do it). Outisde the 2 tours that he won and the one that he was caught in (all three back to back), whenever he tried to attack at an early phase of a mountainous stage, he was caught, usually losing much time to the leaders or flatly abandoning the race. Even if he attacked too early on the final climb, he was likely to be caught and passed by others (eg. by Indurain, Leblanc, Ullrich). That's also why he never won a mountain ITT. Such stages were too long for his stamina. Similarly he was unable to maintain good form in back-to-back stages, winning one and then losing a bunch in the next.
Then a sudden, temporary metamorphosis occurred in the three consecutive tours. We all know, how it ended.
Marco Pantani probably holds the world record for the number of times a cyclist was caught for doping offenses; 3 suspensions during his career and twice after death. The post-mortem examination showed illegal substances in his system. In the Operacion Puerto, he was found to have been prescribed twice as much doping as others, who received 2-year suspensions. Moreover, he used cocaine. Remember, what happened to Ullrich and Boonen when they were caught using recreational drugs outside competition?
He was one of the 2 racers caught in possesson of illegal substances during the all-out search during a Giro. The other one, Dario Frigo, was called "scum" by the cycling world, while Pantani remained a hero. Despite all this, he never admitted cheating.
His record achievements at the Alp d'Huez don't mean much. One can concentrate on this one climb, saving energy during this and the previous stages and start an all-out effort from the point at which the time starts running. It's diffferent to cover the last ascent after a 200 km solo ride with 6 intermediate climbs from racing only during the last ascent, catching up with the others who attacked earlier.
How about his virtues other than cheating, limited capabilities and meager palmares?
He must be found guilty of one of the most heinous offenses a cyclist can commit. While riding in a Giro, on the deciding, most difficult mountain stage, he kept charging on the climbs, leaving his team leader, Garzelli, exposed to the attacks by his rivals for the overall title, theoretically better climbers, Casagrande and Simoni, thus putting in peril his teammate's chances for the overall vioctory for the sake his own stage triumph. While Simoni was able to keep pace with Pantani, other racers were poking jokes at Garzelli on account of his 'loyal' domestique. Luckily for Garzelli, the stage ended with a long descent, the three contenders regrouped and crossed the finish line together. Eventually, Garzelli claimed the overall victory during the ITT. Pantani, meanwhile, despite being seemingly the strongest on the day when he abandoned his comrade, failed to win the stage; one more proof of his lack of stamina. After the race, Garzelli thanked Pantani for helping him in achieving the overall victory. Was it sarcasm or was he blinded by the cult of his domestique? Pantani was consistently dropped early during that Giro, except for the stage he tired to win. Even in the mountainous ITT, which directly followed, he finished somewhere outside the top 30. Despite his superb stamina, the poor chap must have been tired after the previous day's effort, plus the ITT was over 30 km long.
Let's not forget Pantani's other talents. After all, he proved to be a cemedian and a prima donna. After a fall at a slow speed up an ascent, in which a number of others also 'suffered', he was the only one that didn't immediately get back on the bike, but sat down at the roadside making tragic faces to the camera for a couple of minutes. He was at this point outside the contention for the top 10 overall and didn't suffer during the fall in the least. After the Giro he demanded to be included in the Tour, evidently as the only competent person to 'check out how good Lance Armstrong really is', as he put it. He just had checked Dariusz Baranowski to find out that he is slightly better than himself, finishing the Giro 12th and 13th, respectively.
After the Mount Ventoux stage, where Armstrong stopped pedaling on the last uphill meters, allowing Pantani to win, at the post-stage press conference the victor declared simply that he won on account of being better racer than Lance.
When he lost his first Giro to Berzin, being in the meantime the virtual leader, some commentators pointedly explained, that he made a mistake by slowing down. Had I not made such mistakes, I would have beaten Eddy Merckx.

Lance? is that you? :D

Your arguments are so inaccurate and weak..it is also pretty obvious that you have never raced a road bike.. I won't waste a single second of my time educating you for free...go to school :eek:

Pantani has been the best climber ever, EPO drugs, whatever ....IMO all these guys are taking stronger stuff than centrum multivitamins..:eek:
 
Mar 19, 2009
1,311
0
0
Visit site
czeczma said:
It’s clear from the comments that none of you denies the facts and that your judgment is shaped largely by emotions. The most damaging facts, in my opinion, like Pantani’s antics and bahaviour towards Garzelli and Armstrong, you choose to ignore. Some call my arguments stupid. Claiming that results don’t really matter doesn’t seem much wiser either. Some of you got the facts wrong. Here are the palmarès from the so called classics for Pantani and Armstrong.

PANTANI
8, 18 Liège-Bastogne-Liège
5 Flèche Wallonne

ARMSTRONG
1, 2, 14 Clasica San Sebastian
1 Flèche Wallonne
2, 3, 5, 9, 10, 14 Meisterschaft von Zürich
4, 5, 20 Wincanton Classic
2, 2, 6 Liège-Bastogne-Liège
2, 4, 8, 13, 17 Amstel Gold Race
11 Milan-San-Remo

I just remembered something. Perhaps somebody can explain, why Panani represented Italy in the Sidney Olympics, which, by the way, was a flat race? He did not make the top 150 in the UCI rankings at that time and there were probably about 30 Italian riders ranked higher. Remember Pantani’s response to the critics? “I’ll show you what I’m going there for!”. He did indeed… came in 69th. It might have cost Italy a medal. What more proof of his being overrated is needed?

Pantani was a very talented climber but not a one day flat classics rider. He struggled with a big ego but also had a lot of mood shifts and paranoia from the crack.

You need a super high FTP per kilo to win the Tour but guys that had a high total power output but high weight struggle in the mountains. So its power per kilo that wins the Tour because of this. You can win one day classics on a high total V02 (but smaller riders not with less physiological V02 max but less total 02 assimilation) will win Grand Tours.

You also need to be a very very good responder to drug therapy to win today. Being a super responder not only gives you a higher gain from blood doping but from corticoids, HGH, Insulin and other stuff. Being a very good responder gives someone the ability to recover faster and train more often and harder for longer. Because.... What am I on? " I'm on my bike Busting my *** 6 hours a day."
I've no doubt Pantani was a very good responder, he was never monumental as a junior but he WAS good. I read Matt Rendal's book I will again someday...
 
Mar 19, 2009
1,311
0
0
Visit site
Pantani's ego COULD have been partially collapsed by Lance. "Lance" could not even finish the Tour his first 2 attempts! He was a DNF, DNF, 36th, DNF his first 4! And Lance's total FTP (time trialing) was not great either. Watch Indurain pass Lance like a BMW M5 going by a Toyota on the Autobahn:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1b44d_indurain-vs-armstrong-brutal_sport

Pantani, as I said in his own mental state must have been seriously disturbed by personally witnessing this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q38Gyjv4EE

Lance weighed 35 pounds more than Marco... It would take Lance 100 more watts to keep up with Marco. maybe 125 watts more to catch him. Now Marco was no idiot. He knew that "lance Armstrong" had little Grand Tour talent and at best modest "mule" role in the mountains. But....
 
TrapperJohn said:
I will raise an issue about the 'gifting' of the Ventoux stage. All LA did was not contest the finish, and there's no telling what might have happened if he had. Pantani might have held him off.

And this was after his fall. Pantani never reached the same level and yet, he was good enough to drop Lance outright on a following mountain stage that year. If Pantani had not been caught he would probably have caused Armstrong huge problems on the climbs. Probably Lance would have been able to win the Tour anyway, because he had more overall capacity. But Pantani, the "real" Pantani, not the one of Tour 2000, was untouchable on the climbs. Under the assumption Lance was playing the same game, mind you. Understood?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
So, question from someone that doesn't have lots of in-depth knowledge about Pantani, but was intrigued by his legend and mystique.

No doubt he was seriously talented on the bike. But if he hadn't doped would he have become the great climber he is heralded as? Could he have had the performances he had without EPO, etc?

School me...

His story really makes me want to read "The Death of Marco Pantani" and learn more about him.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Gee333 said:
But if he hadn't doped would he have become the great climber he is heralded as? Could he have had the performances he had without EPO, etc?.

without doping, he still would have had the personality, the tenacity, the determination, the aggression, the style, the smile, the knowledge, the dope didnt stop him from dancing, it just helped him dance longer and faster...

i think the thing for me that would changed marco would have been if he raced now.. wearing a helmet.. imagine pantani without the scarf round his head, or his head bobbing up and down in the alps.. :eek:

for me the only rider in recent years who has come close in charisma on the bike was vinokourov.. i cant remember the stage, but back in the tmobile days, vinny going off the front and attacking his own team mate ullrich, getting caught, being dropped, catching up again, attacking, repeatedly.. and then a few days later winning on the champs elysees...

sadly another great talent completely wasted.. :(
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
one thing i would say to the creator of this post, 4 posts on the forum.. i reckon you could have gone with a slightly less controversial (and in many ways disrespectful and idiotic) introduction.. ;)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.