Paris-Nice 2023, March 5-12

[QueenStagiaire]

Vinge interview

View: https://youtu.be/lgpD74cydyU


Pog interview

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l97Nj1wfP6E

Hey, Pogačar agrees with me on TTTs, that’s cool.

 

[Izzyeviel]

I dont get the new TTT idea - surely if thats what you want to happen, why not run a ITT?

 

[jimmy_8888888]

I dont get the new TTT idea - surely if thats what you want to happen, why not run a ITT?

Agree completely. If you want to run TTT, run it as normal TTT just that.

 

[Extinction]

Why do you think so?
After all it is a team sport. If the team shall have no influence, then erase teams from cycling and let everybody start for themselves.
And I think that EF did better than UAE and Jumbo with all those guys didn't smash the time is actually a good sign in the money discussion.

To the bolded, yes, cycling is a team sport, however, GC is based on individual rider times, not that of the accumulated team. So it would not be about erasing teams, but conforming GC according to the logic of the TTT; namely as the result of the accumulted times of each teams' riders and not individual times. But this isn't the case.

 

[KZD]

That depends.

Tomorrow the intermediate seconds will probably be in the hands of the break (I predict Cort taking it from the break)... and if Pogacar attacks on the final climb, it stands to reason Vingo will be in his wheel, so Pog will earn max 4 seconds.

Thursday I see puncheurs going for the intermediate sprint, as that is the perfect place to attack for the win.

Friday is probably going to be won from a break (both intermediate and finish).

Saturday is a 16 K final climb, where Vingo might very well have the advantage over Pog, and if not Pog just gets another 4 seconds.

Sunday is another puncheur stage IMO.

I will be close, but it's not a given Pog can find the 11 seconds necessary.

I think Pogačar is the clear favourite for stage 4 and 8. Question remains if the break is going to get caught but I believe so and if people like Martinez, Gaudu, Simon Yates and Scachmann hold on they might take bonus seconds away from Vingegård. Stage 6 will probably be won by the break but if the break is caught Pogačar would be one of the favourites and Vingegård would likely not top3. Stage 7 is the key for Vingegård and the climb suits him but the stage itself is not that hard so it won't be easy to drop Pogačar. I agree that the intermediate sprints won't matter much from now on, the break should take almost all of them, but I bet Pogačar takes more than 11 seconds in bonus mostly at the finish line.

 

[search]

another look at tomorrow's final climb:

Col de la Loge des Gardes from Le Moulin Gitenay - Profile of the ascent

Col de la Loge des Gardes from Le Moulin Gitenay is a climb in the region Monts du Forez. It is 6.8km long and bridges 482 vertical meters with an average gradi

climbfinder.com

Don't think this climb has been used before?!

 

[Tim Cahill]

That shot of Pogacar sprinting round the corner solo at the end of a TTT, as well as Cort getting the big leadout was very cool.

If they insist on doing TTTs then do it like this from now on, maybe even with a mountain or something in the middle just as a curveball.

 

[Anderis]

I suppose TTTs generally benefit teams with more money than ITTs

That's what they say but here we literally have the 2 poorest (source) WT teams in the top3!

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

A great thing about Paris-Nice: It's easy to get an overview of the stages. It sounds basic, but it isn't, apparently. You can spend hours searching for stage details on the websites of various races, but with Paris-Nice it's plain and simple, as it should be:

https://www.paris-nice.fr/en/overall-route

I think it's a standard ASO website. Other stageraces have the exact same template with the exact same way of presenting stages and profiles. Like this:

https://www.voltacatalunya.cat/en/overall-route

 

[Lequack]

 

[search]

Vingegaard mentioned the potential of crosswinds during tomorrow's stage - and it looks like he's right, going by the current forecast.

 

[Danskebjerge]

I think it's a standard ASO website. Other stageraces have the exact same template with the exact same way of presenting stages and profiles. Like this:

https://www.voltacatalunya.cat/en/overall-route

But then there is stage 2 of the tour - just to take a random example - where you have a page with a video presentation of the route and loads of other stuff, but not the stage profile which is what most (many) want to see first.

Stage 2 - Lauwin-Planque > Boulogne-sur-Mer - Tour de France 2025

Profile, time schedule, all informations on the stage

www.letour.fr

 

[Elos Anjos]

TTT has its framework and this nudge is just keeping up the same logic. Teams have more variables on how to choose their roster and strategy for a given race.

 

[Danskebjerge]

PostNord Danmark Rundt - another example. The stages have been announced, but when you enter the subpage with the stages, there are no detailed maps or road profiles. What you need to know, is that they will probably not be published on the site till later, but how should a random user know that? It's really annoying.

 

[Valv.Piti]

It was also way less fair than yesterdays TA ITT.

Fair? What the frick is fair? Were talking cycling here, it will always be "unfair". If anything, this format made the TTT more "fair".

 

[Boehmand]

I think Pogačar is the clear favourite for stage 4 and 8. Question remains if the break is going to get caught but I believe so and if people like Martinez, Gaudu, Simon Yates and Scachmann hold on they might take bonus seconds away from Vingegård. Stage 6 will probably be won by the break but if the break is caught Pogačar would be one of the favourites and Vingegård would likely not top3. Stage 7 is the key for Vingegård and the climb suits him but the stage itself is not that hard so it won't be easy to drop Pogačar. I agree that the intermediate sprints won't matter much from now on, the break should take almost all of them, but I bet Pogačar takes more than 11 seconds in bonus mostly at the finish line.

It's odd to me, that many people seem to think Vingegaard is not punchy.

He is... just not quite as much as Pogacar... but more than most other climbers.

 

[Didinho]

Just put this format TTT with an uphill finish. Big engines full gas first and a train/leadout up the mountain for the ITT of the captain to the finish. Could be tactical. Save the captain for the end or less turns before.

I liked this today, something new. Cort made a solo effort for the leaders jersey.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Why do you think so?
After all it is a team sport. If the team shall have no influence, then erase teams from cycling and let everybody start for themselves.

It is a team sport, and we can acclaim teammates' contributions and the tactical dynamic of it as such, but the winners are feted as individuals, and the fanbase is centred on acclaim of individuals.

The team has influence, and the rider on a better team benefits from that team strength in any race. But they gain far more in a TTT than in other stages, and so the guy on the wealthier team benefits even more when a TTT is included (as he is less limited by the ability of the team's 4th best timetrialler) , making races more predictable and further rewarding pure power over racecraft.

 

[KZD]

It's odd to me, that many people seem to think Vingegaard is not punchy.

He is... just not quite as much as Pogacar... but more than most other climbers.

Where did I say Vingegård is not punchy?

I just see no evidence that he is more punchy than the riders I mentioned and even if he beats them in the hardest stages he can still lose GC to Pogačar on bonus seconds...

 

[gunara]

What I see from this TTT is that it's quite in line with how road stages are supposed to be raced, not a completely different game like a normal TTT. So to me, it felt less out of place in the whole stage race dynamics, unlike how I often felt about a TTT.

 

[Monsi]

I think Pogačar is the clear favourite for stage 4 and 8. Question remains if the break is going to get caught but I believe so and if people like Martinez, Gaudu, Simon Yates and Scachmann hold on they might take bonus seconds away from Vingegård. Stage 6 will probably be won by the break but if the break is caught Pogačar would be one of the favourites and Vingegård would likely not top3. Stage 7 is the key for Vingegård and the climb suits him but the stage itself is not that hard so it won't be easy to drop Pogačar. I agree that the intermediate sprints won't matter much from now on, the break should take almost all of them, but I bet Pogačar takes more than 11 seconds in bonus mostly at the finish line.

I think the intermediate sprint will matter tomorrow and on the last stage. The IS tomorrow is around 16-17 km from the finish so best believe UAE will try to catch the break before that On the last day, I can see a situation where the race already explodes on Cote de Peille so the break might have already been caught before the IS. If Pogacar takes first at those sprints and Jonas takes second, that's already 4 seconds and then Pogacar just needs to win two stages (with Jonas finishing second) for Pogacar to win GC.

As for stage 7, I just don't see Pogacar or Jonas dropping each other. The final climb is just too steady and there are no really steep sections. The cold conditions go in Pogacar's favor too.

 

[BR2]

It is a team sport, and we can acclaim teammates' contributions and the tactical dynamic of it as such, but the winners are feted as individuals, and the fanbase is centred on acclaim of individuals.

The team has influence, and the rider on a better team benefits from that team strength in any race. But they gain far more in a TTT than in other stages, and so the guy on the wealthier team benefits even more when a TTT is included (as he is less limited by the ability of the team's 4th best timetrialler) , making races more predictable and further rewarding pure power over racecraft.

It would be better, in my opinion, if such time trials were more technical, with corners, sudden steepness, light downhill - then it would be less power output and the communication between the team members, who's in front when etc. would play a bigger role.
But already in one like today you can see it is not the teams with the most money in front. Anderis already linked this.
Israel have a decent budget, but they finished last. EF and Jayco 2nd and 3rd. AG3R beneath their budget, UAE and Ineos with their huge budgets not in top 3.
I think there are many stages in cycling where a big budget plays a bigger role than here. It is also about spending your money wisely, about forming a good team, about preparing the riders well, and most of all, it's about riding together. On a more tactical course you can immediately see the differences between teams.

 

[Carrick-On-Seine]

It would be better, in my opinion, if such time trials were more technical, with corners, sudden steepness, light downhill - then it would be less power output and the communication between the team members, who's in front when etc. would play a bigger role.
But already in one like today you can see it is not the teams with the most money in front. Anderis already linked this.
Israel have a decent budget, but they finished last. EF and Jayco 2nd and 3rd. AG3R beneath their budget, UAE and Ineos with their huge budgets not in top 3.
I think there are many stages in cycling where a big budget plays a bigger role than here. It is also about spending your money wisely, about forming a good team, about preparing the riders well, and most of all, it's about riding together. On a more tactical course you can immediately see the differences between teams.

If Ineos had brought their T-A team here the result might have been a bit different.

 

[Extinction]

It would be better, in my opinion, if such time trials were more technical, with corners, sudden steepness, light downhill - then it would be less power output and the communication between the team members, who's in front when etc. would play a bigger role.
But already in one like today you can see it is not the teams with the most money in front. Anderis already linked this.
Israel have a decent budget, but they finished last. EF and Jayco 2nd and 3rd. AG3R beneath their budget, UAE and Ineos with their huge budgets not in top 3.
I think there are many stages in cycling where a big budget plays a bigger role than here. It is also about spending your money wisely, about forming a good team, about preparing the riders well, and most of all, it's about riding together. On a more tactical course you can immediately see the differences between teams.

It's a question of budget and money well spent, when the two coincide then the advantage is gained. Israel is clearly not the case.

 

[tobydawq]

Agree completely. If you want to run TTT, run it as normal TTT just that.

What if you want to run a TTT like today?