Patriotism

[rhubroma]

*** edited by mod **

nasty, totally inappropriate and insulting

I don't think it was at all. I think it talked about the real issues. Evidently people among the mods here don't like engaging the real issues and rather prefer to let the superficial and inane comments of some go down without response.

 

[L'arriviste]

Interesting thread. I agree with Liberty Seguros et al on the notion that, when living abroad, one tends to find - one must find - more in common with life experiences than with flags.

Patriotism requires too much generalisation, for reasons nicely explained above.

The result is that it could represent a common denominator that unites people. However an appeal to unity on those terms creates a distinction that isolates others.

 

[flyor64]

I don't think it was at all. I think it talked about the real issues. Evidently people among the mods here don't like engaging the real issues and rather prefer to let the superficial and inane comments of some go down without response.

Nah, I think you missed the point. While you may have had something of real value to add to the discussion you lost it by opening with an attack, and closed with another attack.

Everything in the middle was lost because of it...

 

[Barrus]

I don't think it was at all. I think it talked about the real issues. Evidently people among the mods here don't like engaging the real issues and rather prefer to let the superficial and inane comments of some go down without response.

Take it to the politics thread. I took out the posts by ACF and Spare Tyre as well.

This is a debate about patriotism, if you want to really bash other states: DO SO SOMEWHERE ELSE.

Every state has problems and don't pretend that your state is any different (yes this is mainly targeted at you ACF) Don't pretend any state is superior and look down on other states, also do not bring up politic debate in here, take it to the politics thread.

 

[rhubroma]

Nah, I think you missed the point. While you may have had something of real value to add to the discussion you lost it by opening with an attack, and closed with another attack.

Everything in the middle was lost because of it...

Nah, mine was simply a response to some idotic comment that was an insult to many. But hey, if you didn't like it (or whomever didn't like it), why didn't you just eliminate the disagreeable parts and leave the rest in for a more civil discussion?

Cuting it all out was unnecessary and inconsiderate. So I think you missed the point.

Such an attack, moreover, was done in the spirit of intellectual rivalry, no more, if, however, I had offended the person to whom it was directed then I ask that person to please accept my sincerest apologies. More than this I can't do.

Ciao

 

[rhubroma]

Take it to the politics thread. I took out the posts by ACF and Spare Tyre as well.

This is a debate about patriotism, if you want to really bash other states: DO SO SOMEWHERE ELSE.

Every state has problems and don't pretend that your state is any different (yes this is mainly targeted at you ACF)

Barrus when talking about patriotism someone brought to the discussion, with a most crude polemic (no offense), the recent British protesters who behaved evidently to him in an unpatriotic way. Mine was a response to that. If, however, this was not the appropriate space for it then I would ask, for consitency sake, to also address (censor) the other part.

If I could have back what I wrote and said, I would certainly put it into the political thread. But who now can give me back what was mine?

 

[Spare Tyre]

Take it to the politics thread. I took out the posts by ACF and Spare Tyre as well.

This is a debate about patriotism, if you want to really bash other states: DO SO SOMEWHERE ELSE.

Every state has problems and don't pretend that your state is any different (yes this is mainly targeted at you ACF) Don't pretend any state is superior and look down on other states, also do not bring up politic debate in here, take it to the politics thread.

Barrus, I am Australian and my comment about the race riot at Cronulla, Australia, was based on a factual event. It was a race riot/attack by flag-waving Australians of Anglo descent on Australians of Lebonese descent.

I can't see how it wasn't relevant. The race riots at Cronulla were all about patriotism.

 

[Barrus]

S I said, I took that out. And I will give you back what you wrote, just reread it and perhaps take certain parts out. I have already taken the curtosy of removing some parts out. However if you reinclude those parts or include any references or more insults against that person or anyone else in the reposting of that post, you will enjoy a short vacation.

I know about the riots. They were not patriotically motivated, ethnically and xenophobically perhaps yes, and the debate about those needs to take place in the politics thread

 

[flyor64]

Nah, mine was simply a response to some idotic comment that was an insult to many. But hey, if you didn't like it (or whomever didn't like it), why didn't you just eliminate the disagreeable parts and leave the rest in for a more civil discussion?

Cuting it all out was unnecessary and inconsiderate. So I think you missed the point.

Such an attack, moreover, was done in the spirit of intellectual rivalry, no more, if, however, I had offended the person to whom it was directed then I ask that person to please accept my sincerest apologies. More than this I can't do.

Ciao

I'm not a mod so I didn't touch your post. I simply stated that you did your own post a disservice by starting off attacking and closing with a personal attack.

FWIW I didn't think to highly of ACFs post either...

I think it possible for you to go after the post without going after the poster...

ETA, I agree with the bolded section however that one could have left the relevant stuff in...

 

[rhubroma]

S I said, I took that out. And I will give you back what you wrote, just reread it and perhaps take certain parts out. I have already taken the curtosy of removing some parts out. However if you reinclude those parts or include any references or more insults against that person or anyone else in the reposting of that post, you will enjoy a short vacation.

I know about the riots. They were not patriotically motivated, ethnically and xenophobically perhaps yes, and the debate about those needs to take place in the politics thread

Fair enough, that's fine by me.

 

[rhubroma]

I'm not a mod so I didn't touch your post. I simply stated that you did your own post a disservice by starting off attacking and closing with a personal attack.

FWIW I didn't think to highly of ACFs post either...

I think it possible for you to go after the post without going after the poster...

ETA, I agree with the bolded section however that one could have left the relevant stuff in...

Yea, well, I slipped in allowing myself to go on one of my impulsive tirades, which nobody hates more than myself. It was a moment of poor taste, which I should have had the decency to omit but didn't, although that comment demanded a response.

 

[Spare Tyre]

S I said, I took that out. And I will give you back what you wrote, just reread it and perhaps take certain parts out. I have already taken the curtosy of removing some parts out. However if you reinclude those parts or include any references or more insults against that person or anyone else in the reposting of that post, you will enjoy a short vacation.

I know about the riots. They were not patriotically motivated, ethnically and xenophobically perhaps yes, and the debate about those needs to take place in the politics thread

Re the riots. I disagree. They were about who the "real" Australians are. Seems to me that's got something to do with patriotism. And the Anglos were flag-wearers. That's got something to do with patriotism.


Edited to clarify: From my perspective the Anglo Australians were motivated by ethnic xenophobia, but to the flag-wearing Anglo Australians who set up the brawl they were showing their strength and seeking rightful dominance as the "real" Australians. This IS patriotism.

 

[auscyclefan94]

what have I done this time? I seem to b really ticking people off on this forum today!

 

[auscyclefan94]

Take it to the politics thread. I took out the posts by ACF and Spare Tyre as well.

This is a debate about patriotism, if you want to really bash other states: DO SO SOMEWHERE ELSE.

Every state has problems and don't pretend that your state is any different (yes this is mainly targeted at you ACF) Don't pretend any state is superior and look down on other states, also do not bring up politic debate in here, take it to the politics thread.

What are you talking about? I did not say anything about that!

 

[hubbard]

Patriotism is an irrational support of a shared identity created by often arbitrary boundaries.

It's stupid, and too much of it can be dangerous, but we all have some of it.

X2

in its extreme form, it is what created the nazi party.

 

[180mmCrank]

I think we might be confusing an innate quality all humans have with consequent behaviour.

Humans are social beings - we are tribal - we are hard wired that way. That in itself means we have a basic need to belong. We generally feel more secure, confident, 'happy' if you like, when we are connected with other people.

How that innate trait gets used and abused as literally a call to arms is a different question. Patriotism itself - a pride in where I come from' - does not have to be a bad thing. Nationalism / jingoism or whatever you want to call it I think speaks more to the behaviour some of which is being referenced here.

I don't think it's a bad thing for people to celebrate their culture and their heritage but I'm not one for trying to represent mine as better than someone elses.

If anybody is interested there is a really interesting perspective here from David Logan - this might be a bit convoluted for some.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/david_logan_on_tribal_leadership.htm

 

[Archibald]

I would have said that the English are more notably patriotic than Australians (note that I didn't say British - I am referring to the George Cross wearing "Englishman")

I reckon the scots and welsh are more so than the english, who tend to stand more with their regions - ie; Geordies, Yorkshiremen, etc...

There is a difference between patriotism and supporting your national team though, which confuses many...

Personally, patriotism is something that americans do in abundance. So many flag poles in front yards it's scary! Along with nationalism and religion it should be abolished, but f*ck knows how...

 

[The Hitch]

I reckon the scots and welsh are more so than the english, who tend to stand more with their regions - ie; Geordies, Yorkshiremen, etc...

There is a difference between patriotism and supporting your national team though, which confuses many...

Personally, patriotism is something that americans do in abundance. So many flag poles in front yards it's scary! Along with nationalism and religion it should be abolished, but f*ck knows how...

How have you lot managed to leave the irish out of this discussion yet
How ?

I cant think of many other nationalities whose national saints day is seen as an important hollyday in several different countries.

Here in England the english always complain that english st georges day is minor compared to irish st patricks day, even though we are in england

And whats more to claim that getting drunk is part of your national identity, and be serious about it, i think the irish trump everyone else on this discussion.

Also the siciilians because they only allow you to be part of their clique if you have 100% sicilian blood.

THe jews on the other hand, under jewish law we all belong to their circle. How nice

 

[hrotha]

I would be careful not to get the Irish mixed with the Plastic Paddies.

 

[pmcg76]

How have you lot managed to leave the irish out of this discussion yet
How ?

I cant think of many other nationalities whose national saints day is seen as an important hollyday in several different countries.

Here in England the english always complain that english st georges day is minor compared to irish st patricks day, even though we are in england

And whats more to claim that getting drunk is part of your national identity, and be serious about it, i think the irish trump everyone else on this discussion.

Also the siciilians because they only allow you to be part of their clique if you have 100% sicilian blood.

THe jews on the other hand, under jewish law we all belong to their circle. How nice

Did you read the first page!!! St.Patricks day is just an excue to get drunk, it is supposedly a religious celebration but was turned into a jamboree in the US and now its everywhere. Personally, I wouldnt exactly be proud of what St.Patricks day has become.

 

[Anonymous]

Not particularly. I've lived abroad a fair bit, and have found that for the most part I have more in common with people of similar life experiences from different countries than people with different life experiences from the same country.

Same here, I have no affinity or allegiance to the country of my birth (England) whatsoever. Im a bit of a gypsy anyway, scottish and irish descent (but last 3 gens on mothers side are scousers). spend well over half my life in a celtic count(r)y in cornwall. Im a celt, not english. I support scotland, and will cheer on ireland and wales over england.

Like Libertine I have things in common with people rather than nations. The places I am happy, cornwall, devon, scotland, northern france, and the north and east side of paris (which feels like a second home).

in the words of a songwriting friend of ours.

id like to say im proud to be british but im not
but i love the town i come from and the place i grew up
most of the people have good things to say
but theyve given up trying to be heard
ive been reading john peel during the morning star
it doesnt matter where youre from but who you are
but i cant be proud of a country thats causing pain
but weve done it again and again

i love our rivers, love our coastline, whats left of our green
but i wont wear the union jack or sing god save the queen

id like to say im proud to be human but im not
cos all that we discover we destroy
and i know if we found life on mars wed take that too
and wed do it again and again
id like to say im proud to be british but im not
but the town i live in now
most of the people have good things to say
but theyve given up trying to be heard

i love our rivers, love our coastline, whats left of our green
but i wont wear the union jack or sing god save the queen

http://www.traceycurtis.com

 

[krebs303]

Did you read the first page!!! St.Patricks day is just an excue to get drunk, it is supposedly a religious celebration but was turned into a jamboree in the US and now its everywhere. Personally, I wouldnt exactly be proud of what St.Patricks day has become.

It is the same with the Cinco de Mayo. Big marketing of a holiday virtually unknown in Mexico

 

[fatandfast]

It is the same with the Cinco de Mayo. Big marketing of a holiday virtually unknown in Mexico

Sep 16th? I think that is the real one(?)

 

[Archibald]

How have you lot managed to leave the irish out of this discussion yet
How ?

I cant think of many other nationalities whose national saints day is seen as an important hollyday in several different countries.

Here in England the english always complain that english st georges day is minor compared to irish st patricks day, even though we are in england

And whats more to claim that getting drunk is part of your national identity, and be serious about it, i think the irish trump everyone else on this discussion.

Also the siciilians because they only allow you to be part of their clique if you have 100% sicilian blood.

THe jews on the other hand, under jewish law we all belong to their circle. How nice

I left out the irish, because, while they constantly trash the english, it's more a rebellion than patriotism...

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Al Franken wrote about two types of loving your country a few years ago. You may disagree with who he puts in what camp, but I think the way he expresses it is quite apt.

The first camp love their country like a four-year-old loves their mother. Everything she does is fantastic and people who criticise her are bad. The second camp love their country like a grown-up relationship; they take the rough with the smooth, accept that it has flaws and want to help it overcome them.

Patriotism in the second style is no problem at all. Patriotism in the first style leads to all the problems we see outlined here.

Everybody has some level of patriotism. But I consider it a long, long way down my list of reasons to cheer for somebody in a sporting context. My country makes mistakes just like any other, my country is no better than anybody else's. Why should somebody born 10km from me under a different flag receive my support less than somebody born 600km from me under the same flag?

I dislike patriotism as a general rule, more because it's tribalism than anything else. You could consider picking and choosing your friends on life experiences a kind of classism I guess, or a kind of intellectual chauvinism. But it feels like more of an informed decision to me than to support people you may find reprehensible and entirely unlikable because they happen to be from the same country as you.