Paying the EPO price

[ray j willings]

I was thinking about the performances of so called climbers yesterday and not the obvious ones.
Do you think riders who have taken EPO are now paying the price. Did/do they know what they are doing?
Its known that if you take high doses of EPO "really go at it" that you can do damage to your natural levels of EPO and you will then never be at your best. Maybe what we have now is riders who are winning getting the benefit of the bio passport and Micro dosing and doing very little damage to their bodys.
When you look at the demise of Sanchez , Basso , Scarponi etc these riders could perform at the very highest level now they cannot compete and this could be due to their over use of EPO. I wonder if riders like Rolland and other similar climbers have this issue. They have certainly not lived up to expectations and you would think at there age they would get better not decline.

 

[King Boonen]

I'm argue they would only beating everyone because they could get away with using EPO and blood transfusions much more easily.

Now it's more difficult their level has dropped.

That and they're getting older.

 

["Jeff"]

Keep in mind Basso, Scarponi etc are at the end of their career. These are not the best examples for your point.

Samuel Sanchez is still doing a good job.

One thing thats surprising is that a guy like Valverde, is still able to compete like this. What a rider.

 

[the delgados]

Yeah, Horner under-used EPO. Hence his dominance in his 40's.
Take that as an example, kids! Don't use the EPO!

 

[Hugh Januss]

Or they seem slower because they are not up to date with whatever weird science Sky has.

 

[Benotti69]

Armstrong was using EPO at Motorola, then went on 2 win 7 TdFs in a row, took a break, came back finished on the podium in 2009. That is a lot of years on PEDS including EPO. Never mind the chemo he went through!

 

[Irondan]

Or they seem slower because they are not up to date with whatever weird science Sky has.

This ^^^

 

[BrentonOfTheNorth]

Its known that if you take high doses of EPO "really go at it" that you can do damage to your natural levels of EPO and you will then never be at your best.

Do you have a source for this? I was under the impression that yes like many drugs, the body responds to EPO by producing less natural EPO, but that the body goes back to homeostasis when being off of it for a short while, like with most drugs.

Riders that were previously dominant may have had a method or doctor that isn't applicable now, or less willing to take as much risk, or have seen many more of their competitors start using their methods or other as/more effective methods. It's interesting just how 'flash in the pan' some riders could be. Almost makes you think that most riders don't dope, if a doper is able to go from 100th to 1st so suddenly.

 

[Benotti69]

Or they seem slower because they are not up to date with whatever weird science Sky has.

Or UCI has warned other teams and Sky has a free pass, like '99-05........

 

[Supimilian]

Rolland had the performance of his life today, following the greatest and most versatile rider of our era up to PdB faster than any Texan has ever done it.
I'd say he is doing fine.

 

[TheMight]

I was thinking about the performances of so called climbers yesterday and not the obvious ones.
Do you think riders who have taken EPO are now paying the price. Did/do they know what they are doing?
Its known that if you take high doses of EPO "really go at it" that you can do damage to your natural levels of EPO and you will then never be at your best. Maybe what we have now is riders who are winning getting the benefit of the bio passport and Micro dosing and doing very little damage to their bodys.
When you look at the demise of Sanchez , Basso , Scarponi etc these riders could perform at the very highest level now they cannot compete and this could be due to their over use of EPO. I wonder if riders like Rolland and other similar climbers have this issue. They have certainly not lived up to expectations and you would think at there age they would get better not decline.

Is there any science at all to suggest that this is possible? Your body produces EPO as it needs it, it's not a muscle that got under exercised.

If they have paid a price, it's that they've already been associated with it, they're older and they aren't privy to the top-shelf stuff now. Plus, everybody got shelled, they were pushing over 50kph to the climb...

 

[TheSpud]

Re:

Armstrong was using EPO at Motorola, then went on 2 win 7 TdFs in a row, took a break, came back finished on the podium in 2009. That is a lot of years on PEDS including EPO. Never mind the chemo he went through!

I've heard doctors claim chemo "resets" your body. Not saying that helped Armstrong, but i'm not sure it may have hindered him as much as people think.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Armstrong was using EPO at Motorola, then went on 2 win 7 TdFs in a row, took a break, came back finished on the podium in 2009. That is a lot of years on PEDS including EPO. Never mind the chemo he went through!

I've heard doctors claim chemo "resets" your body. Not saying that helped Armstrong, but i'm not sure it may have hindered him as much as people think.

I am not saying it hindered him. The OP was how long can riders perform using EPO. Armstrong has taken a lot and performed well on it.

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

Armstrong was using EPO at Motorola, then went on 2 win 7 TdFs in a row, took a break, came back finished on the podium in 2009. That is a lot of years on PEDS including EPO. Never mind the chemo he went through!

I've heard doctors claim chemo "resets" your body. Not saying that helped Armstrong, but i'm not sure it may have hindered him as much as people think.

I am not saying it hindered him. The OP was how long can riders perform using EPO. Armstrong has taken a lot and performed well on it.

Ok no probs, thought you were trying to say the chemo would have walloped him. I'm in no doubt it did at the time but it seems people recover much quicker than most people realise / would have thought once its over.

 

[42x16ss]

Stuart O'Grady, Jens Voigt, George Hincapie, Christophe Moreau, Erik Zabel, Alessandro Petacchi, Matteo Tosatto, Nicki Sorensen, Haimar Zubeldia....

They are/were still going ok...

 

[Rob27172]

There is the other position as well which is that those riders who are dropping off have made their name and got the big bucks contracts
now don't want to risk having to pay any of that back so drop off the juice a tad to go under the radar and protect what they have.

THey then can retire in comfort and leave the young boys to risk it all

As for the chemical effects of EPO it does no long term damage. There is even talk now that actually the deaths attributed to it in the early days was a scare story from the authorities to try to control it rather than any actual proof.

The riders who died may well have died from a defective heart condition or other issue, lets not forget in those days EPO was in it's infancy and there was also a strong propensity for riders to use amphetamines to get to the end of stages and other alcohol and cocaine based fuels.
Any of which could also have been the cause of some of the deaths.

There is actually a fairly large amount of discussion about this on other sporting forums where the use of epo is discussed outside of cycling. as the question is usually asked as to why were there deaths in cycling but not in other endurance sports and not since the early days of the drug.

Very complex discussion so not wanting to get into it all here - just thought it was relevant to the OP

 

[ray j willings]

As far as I am aware, early experience were of riders taking shots of 5-700 iu. [ maybe more I don't know] a time,this leads to serious blood thickening and I thought was the main contributory factor to those deaths.
heres a interesting little piece that explains my initial point


“What I have anecdotally noticed is that while people are taking erythropoietin — while I was taking erythropoietin — there is certainly an increased training load possibility,” Vaughters said. “But I have also noticed that when you cease taking the drug, there is a sort of backlash — since your bone marrow receptors have been over-occupied with erythropoietin, your body basically shuts down red blood cell production for a while and the bone marrow isn’t as receptive to natural erythropoietin.”

Vaughters said he has seen riders drop well below their pre-EPO baseline abilities, and claims the effect last years in some cases.

The effect is called erythropoietin hyporesponsiveness. It’s well documented in cancer patients who take large quantities of EPO to stay alive. EPO receptors become desensitized and there can even be damage to bone marrow where red blood cells are produced.

More concerning still is a condition called pure red cell aplasia. When medical patients are maintained at high doses of EPO, the body can develop antibodies against EPO itself; these antibodies are unable to distinguish between natural and synthetic forms. The result is a permanent and sometimes dangerous reduction in red blood cells

 

[observer]

Re:

As far as I am aware, early experience were of riders taking shots of 5-700 iu. [ maybe more I don't know] a time,this leads to serious blood thickening and I thought was the main contributory factor to those deaths.
heres a interesting little piece that explains my initial point


“What I have anecdotally noticed is that while people are taking erythropoietin — while I was taking erythropoietin — there is certainly an increased training load possibility,” Vaughters said. “But I have also noticed that when you cease taking the drug, there is a sort of backlash — since your bone marrow receptors have been over-occupied with erythropoietin, your body basically shuts down red blood cell production for a while and the bone marrow isn’t as receptive to natural erythropoietin.”

Vaughters said he has seen riders drop well below their pre-EPO baseline abilities, and claims the effect last years in some cases.

The effect is called erythropoietin hyporesponsiveness. It’s well documented in cancer patients who take large quantities of EPO to stay alive. EPO receptors become desensitized and there can even be damage to bone marrow where red blood cells are produced.

More concerning still is a condition called pure red cell aplasia. When medical patients are maintained at high doses of EPO, the body can develop antibodies against EPO itself; these antibodies are unable to distinguish between natural and synthetic forms. The result is a permanent and sometimes dangerous reduction in red blood cells

JV is full of ***, it probably just suits a particular narrative he wants in the public

 

[ray j willings]

Well this is what I was reading "don't ask" and if it occurred in riders it would /could explain a drop in form.

In patients with chronic kidney disease, erythropoietin resistance is common, costly, and has implications beyond the management of anemia because the presence of erythropoietin resistance portends mortal outcomes. Exploring the provenance of erythropoietin resistance may be facilitated by the consideration of the pathogenetic triad of iron-restricted erythropoiesis, inflammation, and bone marrow suppression. Challenging to diagnose because of difficulty in interpreting tests of iron deficiency, iron-restricted erythropoiesis should be considered in patients who require high doses of erythropoietin, have low transferrin saturation (eg, <20%-25%), and do not have very high ferritin (eg, <1,200 ng/mL); a therapeutic trial of intravenous iron may be worthwhile. Aluminum intoxication is a rare cause of iron-restricted erythropoiesis that may manifest as microcytic hypochromic anemia. A decrease in serum albumin concentration may signal the presence of inflammation, which may be manifest (such as because of a recent illness or infection) or occult; the latter include clotted synthetic angioaccess, failed renal allograft, dialysis catheter, periodontal disease, underlying malignancy, or uremia per se. Marrow hyporesponsiveness may be improved by increasing the delivered dialysis dose, using ultrapure dialysate, maintaining adequate vitamin B12 and folate stores, or by treating hyperparathyroidism. In summary, improving the outcomes of erythropoietin-resistant patients will require complete patient assessment that goes beyond considerations of iron and erythropoietin dose alone. Given that erythropoietin dose is associated with mortality, mitigating erythropoietin resistance has the potential to improve patient outcomes

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Even if you're on drugs, being a pro rider takes its toll on the body and mind. Hamilton and Millar both mentioned how painful training on epo could be. The rest of the body struggles to keep up with the supercharged parts.

And it could be as simple as doing 7 hr training rides gets boring. Stuff like wives and kids get more time when there is already money in the bank.

Some guys can defy this be competitive into their 40s. A guy like Basso is clearly quite a bit heavier than he was in his ET days. He probably took a step back from training, accepts a lesser role, lower pay, and enjoys the life.

But no, I dont think there is any clear evidence that epo causes biological changes that shortens careers.

 

[ray j willings]

Re:

Even if you're on drugs, being a pro rider takes its toll on the body and mind. Hamilton and Millar both mentioned how painful training on epo could be. The rest of the body struggles to keep up with the supercharged parts.

And it could be as simple as doing 7 hr training rides gets boring. Stuff like wives and kids get more time when there is already money in the bank.

Some guys can defy this be competitive into their 40s. A guy like Basso is clearly quite a bit heavier than he was in his ET days. He probably took a step back from training, accepts a lesser role, lower pay, and enjoys the life.

But no, I dont think there is any clear evidence that epo causes biological changes that shortens careers.

Its not just about older riders I was thinking about how riders like Rolland as a prime example,he looked like possible tour contender and really has only declined. Shouldn't it be the other way round.
Its just a thought that tied in with what I was reading and then I found the JV article so it does have some credit even though JV is not my cup of tea

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Re: Re:

Its not just about older riders I was thinking about how riders like Rolland as a prime example,he looked like possible tour contender and really has only declined. Shouldn't it be the other way round.
Its just a thought that tied in with what I was reading and then I found the JV article so it does have some credit even though JV is not my cup of tea

Honestly I think it's a simple as different riders develop differently. Some guys get better with age, some flame out young. There's just so many factors. Sure doping is a part, but so is motivation and team and management and health and injury and tactical savvy etc etc etc.

Take a guy like Cavendish, or Sagan. There's really no way to know if he slowed down, or his competition just caught up. Or his team is not quite as dialed. Or he's not as charged? Even if his power/skill has been consistent it would be tough to put a finger on.

There is still a lot of art to winning bike races.

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

...
Its known that if you take high doses of EPO "really go at it" that you can do damage to your natural levels of EPO and you will then never be at your best.....

Is there any science at all to suggest that this is possible?...

Do you even need to ask?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Or they seem slower because they are not up to date with whatever weird science Sky has.

This.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

-George Santayana

 

["Jeff"]

Re: Re:

Even if you're on drugs, being a pro rider takes its toll on the body and mind. Hamilton and Millar both mentioned how painful training on epo could be. The rest of the body struggles to keep up with the supercharged parts.

And it could be as simple as doing 7 hr training rides gets boring. Stuff like wives and kids get more time when there is already money in the bank.

Some guys can defy this be competitive into their 40s. A guy like Basso is clearly quite a bit heavier than he was in his ET days. He probably took a step back from training, accepts a lesser role, lower pay, and enjoys the life.

But no, I dont think there is any clear evidence that epo causes biological changes that shortens careers.

Its not just about older riders I was thinking about how riders like Rolland as a prime example,he looked like possible tour contender and really has only declined. Shouldn't it be the other way round.
Its just a thought that tied in with what I was reading and then I found the JV article so it does have some credit even though JV is not my cup of tea

Rolland was once a possible Tour contender ? I think it goes wrong there.

C'mon, nice climber in the mold of Luc Leblanc. Nothing more.