Paying the EPO price

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Even if you're on drugs, being a pro rider takes its toll on the body and mind. Hamilton and Millar both mentioned how painful training on epo could be. The rest of the body struggles to keep up with the supercharged parts.

And it could be as simple as doing 7 hr training rides gets boring. Stuff like wives and kids get more time when there is already money in the bank.

Some guys can defy this be competitive into their 40s. A guy like Basso is clearly quite a bit heavier than he was in his ET days. He probably took a step back from training, accepts a lesser role, lower pay, and enjoys the life.

But no, I dont think there is any clear evidence that epo causes biological changes that shortens careers.

Its not just about older riders I was thinking about how riders like Rolland as a prime example,he looked like possible tour contender and really has only declined. Shouldn't it be the other way round.
Its just a thought that tied in with what I was reading and then I found the JV article so it does have some credit even though JV is not my cup of tea

Rolland will never truly contest a GT until he stops losing 5 minutes + in the first week. Then he won't have to try anything crazy to get it all back. Until he manages that, 4th/5th is as good as he'll get anywhere.

 

[jmdirt]

Re:

There is the other position as well which is that those riders who are dropping off have made their name and got the big bucks contracts
now don't want to risk having to pay any of that back so drop off the juice a tad to go under the radar and protect what they have.

THey then can retire in comfort and leave the young boys to risk it all

As for the chemical effects of EPO it does no long term damage. There is even talk now that actually the deaths attributed to it in the early days was a scare story from the authorities to try to control it rather than any actual proof.

The riders who died may well have died from a defective heart condition or other issue, lets not forget in those days EPO was in it's infancy and there was also a strong propensity for riders to use amphetamines to get to the end of stages and other alcohol and cocaine based fuels.
Any of which could also have been the cause of some of the deaths.

There is actually a fairly large amount of discussion about this on other sporting forums where the use of epo is discussed outside of cycling. as the question is usually asked as to why were there deaths in cycling but not in other endurance sports and not since the early days of the drug.

Very complex discussion so not wanting to get into it all here - just thought it was relevant to the OP

The autopsy would have identified the condition (ie: valve). When "embolism" is the cause of death in an otherwise healthy young person artificial erythrocyte boosting is the likely culprit.

Didn't some Nordic skiers also die from embolisms linked to EPO abuse?

 

[jmdirt]

Re:

Stuart O'Grady, Jens Voigt, George Hincapie, Christophe Moreau, Erik Zabel, Alessandro Petacchi, Matteo Tosatto, Nicki Sorensen, Haimar Zubeldia....

They are/were still going ok...

Your list is waaay too short! Boonen and Cancellara always get a pass on suspicion lists.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Stuart O'Grady, Jens Voigt, George Hincapie, Christophe Moreau, Erik Zabel, Alessandro Petacchi, Matteo Tosatto, Nicki Sorensen, Haimar Zubeldia....

They are/were still going ok...

Your list is waaay too short! Boonen and Cancellara always get a pass on suspicion lists.

True, I was just thinking of successful guys, who've been around for donkey's years and never had too many problems with form, even into their late 30's - even 40. D'oh, Horner should have topped that list!

 

[blackcat]

Re:

Yeah, Horner under-used EPO. Hence his dominance in his 40's.
Take that as an example, kids! Don't use the EPO!

Horner got on the weightloss MO doping strategy. Was it the 2011 Tour of California he won, he lost ~5lbs, and starting climbing with the best Euro climbers, and Horner was always one of those riders who could ride into the periphery of the Tour top 10. say... 9-15, depending on how much work he was required to do for someone else, if he was supported and could ride as leader, Horner was always there or thereabouts. Now, when his new doping program kicked into gear, he started climbing to the equivalent threshold around podium of a GT level. But his timetrial ability was neutered. He went from being a solid timetrialler, to a less then solid timetrialler. It was that Cali for RadioShack where Matt Busche was climbing thru his teeth also. What was Horner's height weight previous? 5'11" ~150lbs? went to about 145 I reckon.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

There is the other position as well which is that those riders who are dropping off have made their name and got the big bucks contracts
now don't want to risk having to pay any of that back so drop off the juice a tad to go under the radar and protect what they have.

THey then can retire in comfort and leave the young boys to risk it all

As for the chemical effects of EPO it does no long term damage. There is even talk now that actually the deaths attributed to it in the early days was a scare story from the authorities to try to control it rather than any actual proof.

The riders who died may well have died from a defective heart condition or other issue, lets not forget in those days EPO was in it's infancy and there was also a strong propensity for riders to use amphetamines to get to the end of stages and other alcohol and cocaine based fuels.
Any of which could also have been the cause of some of the deaths.

There is actually a fairly large amount of discussion about this on other sporting forums where the use of epo is discussed outside of cycling. as the question is usually asked as to why were there deaths in cycling but not in other endurance sports and not since the early days of the drug.

Very complex discussion so not wanting to get into it all here - just thought it was relevant to the OP

The autopsy would have identified the condition (ie: valve). When "embolism" is the cause of death in an otherwise healthy young person artificial erythrocyte boosting is the likely culprit.

Didn't some Nordic skiers also die from embolisms linked to EPO abuse?

But there was a lot of athletes who died and we know riders were setting alarm clocks in the night because of blood thickening due to high doses.

 

[Taxus4a]

Quintana, a very talented pure climber and Froome climbed Mende 35 seconds slower than fat people as indurain and Riis, but there are still people that think cycling didnt change. Quintana, considering al the improvement cycling has now, shopuld climb mende 1 minutes better than Riis, and he did half a minute wose, and 1:30 minute in a short climb as Mende is a big diference.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

Yeah, Horner under-used EPO. Hence his dominance in his 40's.
Take that as an example, kids! Don't use the EPO!

Horner got on the weightloss MO doping strategy. Was it the 2011 Tour of California he won, he lost ~5lbs, and starting climbing with the best Euro climbers, and Horner was always one of those riders who could ride into the periphery of the Tour top 10. say... 9-15, depending on how much work he was required to do for someone else, if he was supported and could ride as leader, Horner was always there or thereabouts. Now, when his new doping program kicked into gear, he started climbing to the equivalent threshold around podium of a GT level. But his timetrial ability was neutered. He went from being a solid timetrialler, to a less then solid timetrialler. It was that Cali for RadioShack where Matt Busche was climbing thru his teeth also. What was Horner's height weight previous? 5'11" ~150lbs? went to about 145 I reckon.

I don't know CH's stats but, 5 lbs in nothing shocking. I'm 5' 9", in my race days my 'healthy', natural weight was 150. When I was in peak race form I was 145-. Now that I don't race, ride less hours, and do more upper body work I walk around at 155+. Of course you have to look at other factors such as body fat %, w/kg, etc...

 

[ray j willings]

But the weight loss doping would be about corticoids

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

I don't know CH's stats but, 5 lbs in nothing shocking. I'm 5' 9", in my race days my 'healthy', natural weight was 150. When I was in peak race form I was 145-. Now that I don't race, ride less hours, and do more upper body work I walk around at 155+. Of course you have to look at other factors such as body fat %, w/kg, etc...

i was comparing a hypothetical Chris Horner, on day 21 of the Tour, when he would have been at his lowest weight.

Then me seeing a visually thinner Horner, at the start line of Tour of California. I was comparing his body at his lowest possible weight, at the final stage of Tour de France, then coming back in 8 months to Tour of California, much leaner, having rendered muscle tissue from all parts of his body. Tissue that he was not previously able to drop, he was a professional athlete, he needed that muscle? So how does he lost the 5lbs of muscle, which is significant, i am comparing him to his lowest possible previous weight, a professional cyclist does not carry around excess pounds, unless you are dario pieri or jan ullrich.

He did not have the 5lbs to lose. So how does he turn up so much leaner with less functional muscle mass? And why does his tt go thru the floor, but he starts to climb like Mayo? riddle me that.

 

[Dr.Guess]

Re: Re:

Didn't some Nordic skiers also die from embolisms linked to EPO abuse?

Where did you hear that?

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

Scarponi looking pretty okay today

 

[MarkvW]

Re: Re:

I don't know CH's stats but, 5 lbs in nothing shocking. I'm 5' 9", in my race days my 'healthy', natural weight was 150. When I was in peak race form I was 145-. Now that I don't race, ride less hours, and do more upper body work I walk around at 155+. Of course you have to look at other factors such as body fat %, w/kg, etc...

i was comparing a hypothetical Chris Horner, on day 21 of the Tour, when he would have been at his lowest weight.

Then me seeing a visually thinner Horner, at the start line of Tour of California. I was comparing his body at his lowest possible weight, at the final stage of Tour de France, then coming back in 8 months to Tour of California, much leaner, having rendered muscle tissue from all parts of his body. Tissue that he was not previously able to drop, he was a professional athlete, he needed that muscle? So how does he lost the 5lbs of muscle, which is significant, i am comparing him to his lowest possible previous weight, a professional cyclist does not carry around excess pounds, unless you are dario pieri or jan ullrich.

He did not have the 5lbs to lose. So how does he turn up so much leaner with less functional muscle mass? And why does his tt go thru the floor, but he starts to climb like Mayo? riddle me that.

You ought to edit your post. You don't get leaner by losing muscle. You get thinner, you weigh less, and you have lower mass--but you don't get leaner by losing muscle. You get leaner by losing fat.

I would reserve my opinion on this issue unless I knew his before and after body fat percentages. FWIW.

 

[Lyon]

Re:

Quintana, a very talented pure climber and Froome climbed Mende 35 seconds slower than fat people as indurain and Riis, but there are still people that think cycling didnt change. Quintana, considering al the improvement cycling has now, shopuld climb mende 1 minutes better than Riis, and he did half a minute wose, and 1:30 minute in a short climb as Mende is a big diference.

How come Froome can follow Quintana if Quintana is a very talented pure climber and Froome is not?

 

[neineinei]

Re: Re:

Didn't some Nordic skiers also die from embolisms linked to EPO abuse?

Where did you hear that?

I can't remember hearing anything about it. When the pre race blood screening was introduced in 1996/97 in cross country they spoke about dead cyclists and that it was only a matter of time before the first similar case in cross country.

 

[Jeremiah]

Re: Re:

Yeah, Horner under-used EPO. Hence his dominance in his 40's.
Take that as an example, kids! Don't use the EPO!

Horner got on the weightloss MO doping strategy. Was it the 2011 Tour of California he won, he lost ~5lbs, and starting climbing with the best Euro climbers, and Horner was always one of those riders who could ride into the periphery of the Tour top 10. say... 9-15, depending on how much work he was required to do for someone else, if he was supported and could ride as leader, Horner was always there or thereabouts. Now, when his new doping program kicked into gear, he started climbing to the equivalent threshold around podium of a GT level. But his timetrial ability was neutered. He went from being a solid timetrialler, to a less then solid timetrialler. It was that Cali for RadioShack where Matt Busche was climbing thru his teeth also. What was Horner's height weight previous? 5'11" ~150lbs? went to about 145 I reckon.

I don't know CH's stats but, 5 lbs in nothing shocking. I'm 5' 9", in my race days my 'healthy', natural weight was 150. When I was in peak race form I was 145-. Now that I don't race, ride less hours, and do more upper body work I walk around at 155+. Of course you have to look at other factors such as body fat %, w/kg, etc...

I think CH reducing and even mentioning 5 lbs of weight loss is shocking. The training loads of pro's are crazy and to recover from this they have to eat large quantities of food.

Hmm, how old are you? I'm 50 and my weight has significantly increased from the low 140's up to the mid 150's from ages 30-40, through 160-175, in my 40's and about 190 as an all time high with sporadic training and eating a lot of junk. 3 months later I'm down to 175-180 with a little training and a little discipline.

My point is naturally you get a little heavier and do add some muscle unless you can sustain absurd discipline. Look at LeMond conduct these interviews next to riders. He's huge and not all fat. I think he's about 5'10" and was racing at about the mid 140's. Extremely lean but within the realm of reality.

What's going on/has gone on, with Horner is absurd. Indurain was done at 32 and yet these guys now keep pounding it out, year after year, Horner against guys like Tejay and Talansky and he can keep up? Since when can people in their late 30's and early 40's compete with top athletes in their 20's?

I'm also 5'9" exactly, and was training and running a lot of marathons, 10K's and 5K's from my late 20's to late 30's and had wrestled throughout HS where you're really watching your weight. EVERYONE thru HS and college recognized the cost of restricting one's food and water intake to reach an "optimum" weight and they also realized they could not maintain that weight and perform optimally.

Also, wrestling a 6-9 minute match is significantly different than outright aerobic performance for 4-7 hours on a bike.

I'm just incredulous that World Class athletes (very lean and disciplined) who've been at it for years can suddenly significantly reduce their weight to skeletal appearance and retain their strength and power.

Horner, Armstrong during his comeback? Armstrong could never get below 74kg during his Tour reign and all of a sudden during his comeback he's at 70? in 2009?

The training load on Armstrong during a TdF from '99 till '05 was insane, and he's reducing his weight from that 3 years later, AND essentially retaining most of his crazy high level of performance? Who is training that much and micromanaging the huge quantities of nutrients necessary to recover? Also Porte's crap about not drinking as much as before is absurd. He was going out and getting hammered? Please.

Hugh Janus is 100% correct regarding Sky being on some wacky program.

 

[blackcat]

Horner's chrono suffered when he lost the functional muscle.

he did not have it to lose, and he already could ride into the top15 of the Tour, then he loses 5lb and is climbing with Mayo. = NOT NORMAL