Pellizotti been given a 2 year ban [was - prematurely- Pellizotti acquitted !]

[Oldman]

I don’t recall any official announcement that Tyler had DNA from multiple sources in his blood, though there were all kinds of rumors and speculation occurring then. Even if he did, I don’t see what relevance it would have to the Perez situation. The speculation was not that the bags were switched, but cross-contaminated--that Tyler put his blood in a bag that had previously contained Perez‘ blood, and which had not been either discarded or washed out after use. If the amount of contamination was low, it would not cause an adverse reaction, but could still be picked up in a DNA test. Also, one of the peculiarities of the Hamilton case was that one of the blood antigens that tested positive for HBT was in much lower than predicted amounts, which might be consistent with contamination.
QUOTE]

Would they be so cheap to actually re-use a bag, any bag? That's stupid piled on top of STOOPID.

 

[D-Queued]

I don’t recall any official announcement that Tyler had DNA from multiple sources in his blood, though there were all kinds of rumors and speculation occurring then. Even if he did, I don’t see what relevance it would have to the Perez situation. The speculation was not that the bags were switched, but cross-contaminated--that Tyler put his blood in a bag that had previously contained Perez‘ blood, and which had not been either discarded or washed out after use. If the amount of contamination was low, it would not cause an adverse reaction, but could still be picked up in a DNA test. Also, one of the peculiarities of the Hamilton case was that one of the blood antigens that tested positive for HBT was in much lower than predicted amounts, which might be consistent with contamination.
QUOTE]

Would they be so cheap to actually re-use a bag, any bag? That's stupid piled on top of STOOPID.

Sounds like an implausible urban myth. After all, the good doctor negotiated a performance bonus and actually was financially motivated to keep his patient healthy.

This is not a case of the operation succeeding if the patient dies.

Dave.

 

[Merckx index]

Would they be so cheap to actually re-use a bag, any bag? That's stupid piled on top of STOOPID.

Any argument in a doping forum that begins, "No one would ever be THAT dumb..." is bound to lose.

 

[rata de sentina]

The re-use of a blood bag is not a plausible explanation.I suppose it would be possible but it is not really practicable.

 

[Oldman]

Any argument in a doping forum that begins, "No one would ever be THAT dumb..." is bound to lose.

riccoriccoriccoriccoricco. The sound of Stoopid crickets.

 

[python]

dropping in and see this thread rolled offtrack so quickly...i see lots of incorrect information...

-the first labs to implement the homologous blood test was athens and lausanne, but athens was the first to apply it.
-vino got caught b/c ferrari was misinformed about when lndd got flow cytometry. the french kept it confidential for that year's tour (just like managed to keep the cera test secret and the first corticosteroid test that got texas in 99)
- blood transfusion bags are a dime per dozen. check the net - literally - several can be bought for one-two euros. so it's a complete myth or a total stupidity/incompetence to re-use them.

 

[D-Queued]

There are others here who are experts on this subject (Python?), but I will try the informed lay person view

...

Dave.

See:

dropping in and see this thread rolled offtrack so quickly...i see lots of incorrect information...

-the first labs to implement the homologous blood test was athens and lausanne, but athens was the first to apply it.
-vino got caught b/c ferrari was misinformed about when lndd got flow cytometry. the french kept it confidential for that year's tour (just like managed to keep the cera test secret and the first corticosteroid test that got texas in 99)
- blood transfusion bags are a dime per dozen. check the net - literally - several can be bought for one-two euros. so it's a complete myth or a total stupidity/incompetence to re-use them.

Thanks for the insights

Dave.

 

[hrotha]

riccoriccoriccoriccoricco. The sound of Stoopid crickets.

I still think Riccò didn't do anything most other dopers don't do.

 

[BroDeal]

I still think Riccò didn't do anything most other dopers don't do.

The dude should have given FLandis a call and asked him to watch his fridge.

 

[Benotti69]

The dude should have given FLandis a call and asked him to watch his fridge.

that's what his masseuse was supposed to be doing instead of 'shopping' his sister

 

[webvan]

Shopping ?

 

[Benotti69]

Shopping ?

yeah well i wanted to say f*****g but i bet the mods will remove it.

Riccó came eback about 3pm and was due a massage, but his masseuse was allegedly out 'shopping' with Riccó's sister. but that is siesta time and shops dont open till 4pm so when i said shopping i meant wink wink nudge nudge how's yer father

 

[MarkvW]

can you simply be direct?

yeah well i wanted to say f*****g but i bet the mods will remove it.

Riccó came eback about 3pm and was due a massage, but his masseuse was allegedly out 'shopping' with Riccó's sister. but that is siesta time and shops dont open till 4pm so when i said shopping i meant wink wink nudge nudge how's yer father

Would the filter allow "engaging in sexual intercourse" or "wrenching the socket?"

 

[sniper]

on a side note

yeah well i wanted to say f*****g but i bet the mods will remove it.

Riccó came eback about 3pm and was due a massage, but his masseuse was allegedly out 'shopping' with Riccó's sister. but that is siesta time and shops dont open till 4pm so when i said shopping i meant wink wink nudge nudge how's yer father

Is a masseuse masculine in English?
In Dutch, a masseuse would always be feminine (masseur = masculine), so a masseuse doing it with the sister of ricco sounds rather odd.

 

[webvan]

I was going to say the same thing but since that story has me completely lost I passed!

 

[mwbyrd]

My own take on stripping Pellizotti of his past results -- the UCI wants to send a message to anyone who dares to challenge the sanctity of the biological passport.

BINGO - I think we have a winner. I tend to agree with you. After watching the Floyd case go on and on and then having a panel of 3 guys decided the case 'when they had time'....I have a hard time believing the folks at CAS really have the athlete's best interests in mind. I think they are on the 'payroll'...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

BINGO - I think we have a winner. I tend to agree with you. After watching the Floyd case go on and on and then having a panel of 3 guys decided the case 'when they had time'....I have a hard time believing the folks at CAS really have the athlete's best interests in mind. I think they are on the 'payroll'...

If CAS are on the 'payroll' then why did they judge in favor of Vino & Rasmussen in waiving their fines?

Simply put - CAS have to have all the t's crossed and i's dotted as the athlete can appeal CAS decisions through the Courts in Switzerland.

As there is only one rider who was caught retroactively by the UCI its the only example there is - but in July 2009 it was announced that Thomas Dekker had a positive for a sample from December 2007 - he was suspended from July 09 to July 2011 and all his results from 2007 were stripped.

 

[mwbyrd]

So..all CAS did was state that Vino & Rasmussen didn't have to pay their fines? The whole pay two years salary never held water and was just a publicity stunt.

CAS did uphold the doping positives and in Rasmussen's case...he never TESTED positive. He was convicted because he lied about his whereabouts. This kind of stuff would never hold in a civil court.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

So..all CAS did was state that Vino & Rasmussen didn't have to pay their fines? The whole pay two years salary never held water and was just a publicity stunt.

CAS did uphold the doping positives and in Rasmussen's case...he never TESTED positive. He was convicted because he lied about his whereabouts. This kind of stuff would never hold in a civil court.

I still have a hard time understanding how this was dealt with. You can only imagine that his case is going to 'stick in the craw' of the UCI at some point. Too bad Bordry's out of the scene, I'm sure he could clear up some confusion...

 

[mwbyrd]

On top of that, there was never any evidence that the UCI was randomly testing riders for homologous transfusions. Hamilton was specifically targeted. Interestingly enough, Astana had also been targeted in 2007. No one other than Hamilton/Perez and Vino/Kash has ever been caught even though it was standard practice for Dr. Fuentes to ask clients for family members who could donate blood.
QUOTE]

This has always something that's bothered me about the testing for blood transfusions. If it's so rampant in the peloton like a lot of us are lead to believe, why haven't more riders been caught? I mean getting folks for minute (and I mean mega-minute) traces of a substance instead of something so blatant as blood doping doesn't add up.

Any ideas as to why more people haven't been caught up to this point? Heck, even Pellzotti didn't definitively test positive, ie there wasn't a positive/negative test.

 

[Race Radio]

This has always something that's bothered me about the testing for blood transfusions. If it's so rampant in the peloton like a lot of us are lead to believe, why haven't more riders been caught? I mean getting folks for minute (and I mean mega-minute) traces of a substance instead of something so blatant as blood doping doesn't add up.

Any ideas as to why more people haven't been caught up to this point? Heck, even Pellzotti didn't definitively test positive, ie there wasn't a positive/negative test.

The test that caught Tyler and Vino was for other people's blood. It is an easy and accurate test. Today all riders use their own blood....no test for that.

 

[hrotha]

People have been caught for homologous blood transfusions. Autologous blood transfusions remain officially undetectable right now.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

So..all CAS did was state that Vino & Rasmussen didn't have to pay their fines? The whole pay two years salary never held water and was just a publicity stunt.

CAS did uphold the doping positives and in Rasmussen's case...he never TESTED positive. He was convicted because he lied about his whereabouts. This kind of stuff would never hold in a civil court.

Your point was that CAS are somehow on the 'payroll' - they are not.

As for Rasmussens case - its hard to test positive when you avoid controls.
As for his case not upholding in a civilian court - well see how you get on in court if you refuse to supply a sample for a suspected DUI.

 

[mwbyrd]

The test that caught Tyler and Vino was for other people's blood. It is an easy and accurate test. Today all riders use their own blood....no test for that.

RR, I get what you are saying and agree. But if two top names (Hamilton and Vino) were willing to use other people's blood, wouldnt it make sense that a lot more riders were using other people's blood? It's just still hard to fathom that so few were caught if it was/is so prevalent in the peloton.

Your point was that CAS are somehow on the 'payroll' - they are not.

As for Rasmussens case - its hard to test positive when you avoid controls.
As for his case not upholding in a civilian court - well see how you get on in court if you refuse to supply a sample for a suspected DUI.

Point taken re: the Civil Court argument. But I still think the whole CAS procedure is set up to be biased towards the UCI instead of the athletes. Just IMHO.

 

[Race Radio]

RR, I get what you are saying and agree. But if two top names (Hamilton and Vino) were willing to use other people's blood, wouldnt it make sense that a lot more riders were using other people's blood? It's just still hard to fathom that so few were caught if it was/is so prevalent in the peloton.



Point taken re: the Civil Court argument. But I still think the whole CAS procedure is set up to be biased towards the UCI instead of the athletes. Just IMHO.

Tyler used Haven's blood prior to knowing the test was available. The UCI sat him down and said that they had this new test and as soon as it was valid he would be in trouble. By that time it was too late as it takes months to get the foreign blood out of your system. By the time they got him at the Vuelta it was a very small part of his blood population.

As for Vino, who knows what he was thinking. There have been rumors of mixed up bags and of him using his fathers blood but who knows. Regardless the test is air tight and can detect it for months. I doubt many are attempting it anymore.