Perceptions of a Doper. Part 1

[gatete]

Zam, you are one of the good posters here.

I could cut him some slack and say he deserves a little credit for having worked with Sassi but what I am on about is that he hasnt come out with an anti-doping approach of his own on his return. Be his own man and show leadership on the fight against doping. I just used Pinotti as an example. Have similiar opinions to him. Thats what I would like to of seen from him.

I would love that to happen, in my oppinion I think is a little utopic, here is Basso coming saying that his manager, fellow cyclist, seignours, or a whole bunch of people, a lot of them still active in the cycling business worked in conjuction with his doping, I'm wondering what would happen to him or anybody in similar instance, I'm sure will be applaude by the likes of you and me, and a whole lot of posters here that sympathize with a clean sport, but .... I guess is a little more complicated for them than just champion an antidoping campaign. I by no means wish for doping to be poluting the sport we love, or any sport for that matter I want to be clear about that is just that is very dificult for those folks that are coming back from doping bans to come with a drum and start only what we wish.

 

[veganrob]

VN is nothing more than a propaganda factory for the UCI/USAC. For example they take every single opportunity to worship both Armstrongs, Kristin and Wonderboy.

Why are you wasting your time there? Their weird editorial outlook on the sport inherited from USAC/UCI creates weird junky stories like this one.

You are correct of course. I agree VeloNews is an outlet for all the sycophants of Armstrong.
Brandon Dwight is a hypocrite. He seems to believe LA doped his way through the peloton but is excusing him. He is not part of the answer.

 

[BroDeal]

You are correct of course. I agree VeloNews is an outlet for all the sycophants of Armstrong.
Brandon Dwight is a hypocrite. He seems to believe LA doped his way through the peloton but is excusing him. He is not part of the answer.

He is part of the problem. His "dopers suck" facade looks like a cynical attempt to cash in on anti-doping sentiment.

 

[Pazuzu]

Ok, so doping sucks unless its Lance Armstrong, in which case it's not so bad because he brought attention to the sport. What utter ********! That's like saying mass murder is wrong unless it's perpetrated by Joseph Stalin because he made sure the trains ran on time.

 

[MarkvW]

Ok, so doping sucks unless its Lance Armstrong, in which case it's not so bad because he brought attention to the sport. What utter ********! That's like saying mass murder is wrong unless it's perpetrated by Joseph Stalin because he made sure the trains ran on time.

Doping is only bad when it's cheating. Murder is bad under almost all circumstances.

 

[dolophonic]

@ Gooner i am wondering why you feel so strongly about Di Lucca and have a quote from a 2 time positive racer as a signature..? personally i like both of them ..................as racers.
I do not support dopers either and i do love the sport of cycling too.

 

[Benotti69]

I emailed him to ask him was the quote accurate!

His reply

First off, you should know the media takes everything out of context!

Secondly, one should never assume anything without asking first. So, thank you for asking. I only stated, "i think he is too big to fail" not because I think he deserves to be left alone because he can ride a bike fast and he fights cancer. I just think he has a lot of money, power and influential friends."

Make that of what you will.

 

[Caruut]

I emailed him to ask him was the quote accurate!

His reply



Make that of what you will.

So, he thinks that because Armstrong is so big, he won't fail? Man that quote got taken out of context.

 

[Nilsson]

I dont like Basso because he hasnt returned to the sport with an anti-doping approach to this sport and you think he is all of a sudden going to write a book detailing his own doping methods. Haha thats a good one. Again Marco Pinotti is right about him also. But I suppose Basso can do no wrong in your eyes also. I ask you, why hasnt he returned to cycling with an anti-doping stance?

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/349023/mcquaid-praises-pinotti-for-doping-stance.html

You want me to talk about Coppi and Eddy. I will happily talk about that era for ya. I was really happy with what went on on that era. Infact it was an actual disgrace what went on in that era. Just read this piece from Greg Lemond`s wife Kathy. Do you think I am going to turn a blind eye to that? You can, I wont. Thats not sport in my opinion.

http://greglemond.com/blog/doping-and-those-we-love/

And only the other day we had Eddy coming out with his blah blah about Armstrong.

Basso doesn't have an anti-doping approach? I don't say he doesn't dope, but as far as I know, he's the only more or less transparent rider in the peloton. He shows lots of data about himself (passport, training, tests), and let people see how he plays the game nowadays. Since his comeback (and the road towards it) I've gathered tons of documents. Almost day-to-day SRM-files, passport updates and results of endurance tests.

As well, and probably most important for you, he's the only 'big shot' who said something very interesting on a certain day in february this year. "Certe persone parlano soltanto perché pensano che il rumore sia piu sopportabile del silenzio"... http://twitter.com/#!/ivanbasso/status/166915224815931392

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Basso doesn't have an anti-doping approach? I don't say he doesn't dope, but as far as I know, he's the only more or less transparent rider in the peloton. He shows lots of data about himself (passport, training, tests), and let people see how he plays the game nowadays. Since his comeback (and the road towards it) I've gathered tons of documents. Almost day-to-day SRM-files, passport updates and results of endurance tests.

As well, and probably most important for you, he's the only 'big shot' who said something very interesting on a certain day in february this year. "Certe persone parlano soltanto perché pensano che il rumore sia piu sopportabile del silenzio"... http://twitter.com/#!/ivanbasso/status/166915224815931392

On another forum i started a thread just for his training data lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lkc9kvIhOeg

http://www.mapeisport.it/

ivanbasso ‏ @ivanbasso Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
@ivanbasso race data 4a tappa Giro del Trentino KM 177 T 4 h 45 WM 202 FCM 151 KJ 3500.

 

[Nilsson]

What I didnt like about what he did was when he said he didnt dope and that he only attempted to dope.

Thanks anyway for the two of yee clearing that up. What does that quote at end translate to.

I don't know for sure, but he tweeted it on the day Albert Contador gave his press conference concerning his suspension. It means something like: "some people only speak because they think noise is better better than silence"...

I always thought the two of them were 'okay', but you could interpret this comment as a pretty hard punch below the belt...

 

[veganrob]

I emailed him to ask him was the quote accurate!

His reply



Make that of what you will.

Good work Benotti.
I still think the guy is being reeaally vague and wishy washy. Afraid to offend someone?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Why do you say he had no economic impact?

Ok. Here we go again with the smoothing over the facts to make your point work.

My specific claim was Wonderboy did not improve sales in the U.S. bike industry. You claimed this was wrong. Still no facts to back up your position.

Now is when you back pedal and try to shift the argument, again.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I emailed him to ask him was the quote accurate!

His reply

First off, you should know the media takes everything out of context!

Secondly, one should never assume anything without asking first. So, thank you for asking. I only stated, "i think he is too big to fail" not because I think he deserves to be left alone because he can ride a bike fast and he fights cancer. I just think he has a lot of money, power and influential friends."

Make that of what you will.

Benotti, thank you for the follow-up. I may just buy some 'dopers suck' soft goods yet.

Is VN editorial rewriting an interview to fit their USAC propaganda outlet standards? Unpossible!

 

[BroDeal]

I emailed him to ask him was the quote accurate!

His reply


Make that of what you will.

That only addresses the first part of his statement, which no one is disagreeing with. It does not address this: "As a cyclist and a bike shop owner, whether Lance was clean or not, I think it’s better for everyone that he didn’t get in trouble."

First off, there is the "whether Lance was clean or not." Does he think there is any question that Armstrong is a doper? If he has even a tenuous grasp with reality then why did he phrase it that way other than to throw a bone to the deluded? While he might be able to make a dubious case for bike shop owners, how can he say that cyclists are better off with Armstrong not being brought to justice? If it is better that Armstrong doped and got away with it then why is it not better for the local cat 1 hero to dope and get away with it?

 

[DirtyWorks]

That only addresses the first part of his statement, which no one is disagreeing with. It does not address this: "As a cyclist and a bike shop owner, whether Lance was clean or not, I think it’s better for everyone that he didn’t get in trouble."

First off, there is the "whether Lance was clean or not." Does he think there is any question that Armstrong is a doper? If he has even a tenuous grasp with reality then why did he phrase it that way other than to throw a bone to the deluded? While he might be able to make a dubious case for bike shop owners, how can he say that cyclists are better off with Armstrong not being brought to justice? If it is better that Armstrong doped and got away with it then why is it not better for the local cat 1 hero to dope and get away with it?

Judging by his reply to Benotti, it could be interpreted as the guy has too much power for it to ever actually stick. Or, he mentions it as a way to steer clear of the wrath of Weisel/Armstrong. We know VN is in the (failing) business of making the legend stick, so the chances VN wrote the quote to fit their editorial slant is near 100%.

I agree with what you are saying, but the guy wants to be in the bike business so he's got to steer clear of Weisel/Armstrong/Trek.

 

[BroDeal]

Also, don't forget that we know VN is in the (failing) business of making the legend stick, so the chances VN wrote the quote to fit their editorial slant is near 100%.

How long before Armstrong dopes his way through one of The Competitor Group's marathons or tris?

 

[MarkvW]

Ok. Here we go again with the smoothing over the facts to make your point work.

My specific claim was Wonderboy did not improve sales in the U.S. bike industry. You claimed this was wrong. Still no facts to back up your position.

Now is when you back pedal and try to shift the argument, again.

Got it. You're not into discussion. Stay angry!

 

[blackcat]

No! You are wrong!!

Saying that NO growth in the industry is attributable to Lance is ridiculous.

Armstrong gets paid the megabucks because he delivers the promotional goods. Trek profited handsomely from its deal with Lance, for one huge example.

difference between cycling kit and frames and nike shwag.

the bike market may have experienced growth, but it might be a zero sum proposition, and treks sales did bite into other frame manufacturers and their traditional market.

just a theory. Those Michelobs werent tubulars no? Or bidons? Oh now, they were beers with great Youtube comic vids before they were pulled by the folks at Public Strategies

 

[blackcat]

Basso doesn't have an anti-doping approach? I don't say he doesn't dope, but as far as I know, he's the only more or less transparent rider in the peloton. He shows lots of data about himself (passport, training, tests), and let people see how he plays the game nowadays. Since his comeback (and the road towards it) I've gathered tons of documents. Almost day-to-day SRM-files, passport updates and results of endurance tests.

As well, and probably most important for you, he's the only 'big shot' who said something very interesting on a certain day in february this year. "Certe persone parlano soltanto perché pensano che il rumore sia piu sopportabile del silenzio"... http://twitter.com/#!/ivanbasso/status/166915224815931392

so, this is like Armstrong was gonna do when he came back?

This is just smokescreen tbh

 

[amp300]

Ok. Here we go again with the smoothing over the facts to make your point work.

My specific claim was Wonderboy did not improve sales in the U.S. bike industry. You claimed this was wrong. Still no facts to back up your position.

Now is when you back pedal and try to shift the argument, again.

I had no real horse in this race but your question had me curious. I thought to myself that of course Lance did improve sales of bikes in the U.S. but as you said there are no real facts or figures saying this is the specific reason that sale's jumped. We could probably contribute that to no real exit survey after you buy a bike saying
"Did you buy this bike because of:"
A: Lance
B: Running hurts my knees
C: Integrated shifters are the ****
D: etc.......

I did find this article:

http://www.wisbusiness.com/index.iml?Article=41289

that you could argue either way.

erry Kegel, who manages the Wheel and Sprocket bike store in Brookfield, said he has never heard anyone say they are taking up cycling because of Armstrong.

“But it’s a remarkable coincidence that there has been a huge growth in interest in the sport – especially for road bikes - during the past seven years or so,” he said.

“I’d say we have quadrupled the number of road bikes we sell annually since 1999,” he said, noting that the average price is about $1,500.

He said his company, which has four stores in the Milwaukee area and two in the Fox Valley, sells more mountain and hybrid bikes – but makes more money from more expensive road bicycles.

Kegel said Trek is his store’s top-selling brand, with Giant in second place.

Ben Delaney, editor at large for Bicycle Retailer Magazine, said the industry would prefer that Armstrong stay in the saddle for years to come.

“So they want to get while the getting is good,” he said. “It’s hard to say what effect Armstrong’s seventh win will have, but his popularity and success certainly doesn’t hurt.”

Delaney said road bike sales have been on an upswing in recent years.

In 1999, suppliers shipped $51 million worth of road bikes. By 2002, sales were up to $142 million and then jumped to $178 million last year. In 2004, manufacturers shipped 218,668 road bikes - up 16.6 percent from 2003, according to Bicycle Retailer.

“Trek has probably benefited the most because Lance rides for that company, but a rising tide raises all boats,” he said.

“And while you can’t really quantify a direct correlation, most retailers will tell you they believe the Armstrong-effect has added to their bottom line,” he said.

Here is a link to a graph (sorry at work and can't host pictures) showing amount of bicycles sold in the US

http://www.bikeleague.org/media/facts/

In short they show 15.8 million bikes (all types of bikes not just road) sold in the US in 1998
17.4 million in 99
20.6 million in 00
then a 4 million drop in 2001 that they think was economy related.

Anyway, my thought is still that Lance had an effect on bike sales, but I can't see a real way to show without a doubt that it was all on him.

 

[mikeNphilly]

Great post Amp, glad you did some research.

Someone up thread said the reason cycling grew more popular in the US, during the Lance years was because of some bill that was passed. I assume this bill was passed by the U.S. Postal service since there were so many U.S. Postal cycling jerseys around, and people wearing that kit while out riding their new shiny Trek. So much so that it became a drinking game on the Wall during the Philly race, see a U.S. Postal jersey take a drink...and to think all of the people in U.S. Postal jersey's were celebrating a bill passed in D.C.

I guess the cities of San Fran had a race to celebrate the passing of this bill, as did NYC, Georgia had a tour, as does California...Colorado developed a race, and OLN/VS had tons of cycling coverage of many races, all because of the passing of this great bill...I forget what the name of it was though.

 

[BroDeal]

I had no real horse in this race but your question had me curious. I thought to myself that of course Lance did improve sales of bikes in the U.S. but as you said there are no real facts or figures saying this is the specific reason that sale's jumped. We could probably contribute that to no real exit survey after you buy a bike saying
"Did you buy this bike because of:"
A: Lance
B: Running hurts my knees
C: Integrated shifters are the ****
D: etc.......

I did find this article:

http://www.wisbusiness.com/index.iml?Article=41289

that you could argue either way.






Here is a link to a graph (sorry at work and can't host pictures) showing amount of bicycles sold in the US

http://www.bikeleague.org/media/facts/

In short they show 15.8 million bikes (all types of bikes not just road) sold in the US in 1998
17.4 million in 99
20.6 million in 00
then a 4 million drop in 2001 that they think was economy related.

Anyway, my thought is still that Lance had an effect on bike sales, but I can't see a real way to show without a doubt that it was all on him.

Global warming has decreased the number of pirates or decreasing the number of pirates has caused global warming. The graph does not lie. It's one of the two.

 

[Race Radio]

In short they show 15.8 million bikes (all types of bikes not just road) sold in the US in 1998
17.4 million in 99
20.6 million in 00
then a 4 million drop in 2001 that they think was economy related.

Anyway, my thought is still that Lance had an effect on bike sales, but I can't see a real way to show without a doubt that it was all on him.

Lance did not win the Tour until the end of July 1999 so it is unlikely he had a significant effect on sales, which as anyone in the industry will tell you most sales occur prior to the end of summer.

Growth from 98 to 99 was 11%. From 99 to 00 it was 17%. Given the economy was on fire in 00, unemployment was the lowest in over 30 years, it is understandable that we would see this growth.....and that we would see a drop as the economy cooled

If some would like to pretend that road bike growth was largely due to Lance they also have to ignore that during the height of his fame sales dropped 25%

Fixie riding hipsters did more for sales growth then Lance

 

[amp300]

Lance did not win the Tour until the end of July 1999 so it is unlikely he had a significant effect on sales, which as anyone in the industry will tell you most sales occur prior to the end of summer.

Growth from 98 to 99 was 11%. From 99 to 00 it was 17%. Given the economy was on fire in 00, unemployment was the lowest in over 30 years, it is understandable that we would see this growth.....and that we would see a drop as the economy cooled

If some would like to pretend that road bike growth was largely due to Lance they also have to ignore that during the height of his fame sales dropped 25%

Fixie riding hipsters did more for sales growth then Lance

Valid points RR (especially the hipster one!)

My main point was regarding bike sales in the US related to LA's initial success i.e. his first two tour wins. I think I was vague about that in my initial post. I worked in a bike shop every summer from 99-03 (yes I know his first win was in 99, come on man! But I guess you can never be sure with some people on here), and our numbers went up significantly.....for US postal jersey sales, or shirts. We would have people come in and ask "Do you have that bike Lance is riding?" Only to then just want to lift it up as they were amazed at how light it was compared to the downhill bikes we sold. However it brought people into the shop. At that time I was glad because it meant a job for me and my boss. I changed my opinion on Lance a few years later but at the time I thought it was great. I won't be as ignorant to say that he is the only reason bike sales went up, just that I believe it was a contributing factor in those first two years because of all the re-exposure of bike racing to the american public since the LeMond days. All of the sudden ESPN, ABC, CNN, etc are showing people this "inspiring" person on their highlight or news shows, and it motivates people to do go out and imitate.

Still as others will undoubtedly point out, there is no hard evidence suggesting this is the reason. I think what you mentioned regarding the economy and low unemployment all have to be considered when figuring this out. However it is fun to debate.

Great post Amp, glad you did some research.

thanks!