Teams & Riders Peter Sagan discussion thread.

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Re: Re:

Angliru said:
Melo said:
Gorecki said:
After this replay I can say that Cav **** up. The Sagan DQ is bogus. Cav took a risk to go on that tight space between Sagan and the barrier and he paid for it.
That video shows that Cavendish actually swerved into Sagan to avoid a fan who had their arms extended over the barriers, in Cavendish's path. Once he moved to his left making contact with Sagan, his fall began.
At the point that your video starts, PS has already moved over. Look at seconds 3 and 4, MC already has the line (he's not trying to squeeze as some have said), and PS comes over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0MgSNtiCI
 
Re: Re:

jmdirt said:
Gorecki said:
That's funny, an incomplete video with inaccurate captions is where you are leaving it.

At the point that your video starts, PS has already moved over. Look at seconds 3 and 4, MC already has the line (he's not trying to squeeze as some have said), and PS comes over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0MgSNtiCI
Indeed we can debate it either way but lets not base things off an edited video with "jet fuel can't melt steel beams" annotations


From what I can see its Sagan moving across Cavendish's line, Cavendish leans in to him as he falls, Sagan feels a touch and throws an elbow.

The way I see It doesn't matter if the elbow caused the fall. There isn't a point were it's now okay for Sagan to throw an elbow.

Up until the elbow it's just a racing incident.
With the elbow we are into the Mark Renshaw headbutting area.

Renshaw got kicked off the race for that. Sagan is borderline.

I personally have lost a bet on Sagan getting the Green Jersey.
 
Re: Re:

Angliru said:
Walkman said:
Angliru said:
Melo said:
Gorecki said:
After this replay I can say that Cav **** up. The Sagan DQ is bogus. Cav took a risk to go on that tight space between Sagan and the barrier and he paid for it.
That video shows that Cavendish actually swerved into Sagan to avoid a fan who had their arms extended over the barriers, in Cavendish's path. Once he moved to his left making contact with Sagan, his fall began.


How can people be this ignorant?!
The clip starts after Sagan has pushed Cav to the right, forcing him to lean left to offset the angle of his bike. It is in no way representative of what happened. And your explanation is not accurate at all.
rick james and you should get together. You've both cornered the market on ignorance.

I've watched multiple perspectives and it's clear to me. Your bias has distorted your ability to think clearly.
Well, care to comment on these pictures?

From above:
http://i.imgur.com/9QTHNdI.jpg

From the front:
http://i.imgur.com/jiILcY0.jpg

The first picture show Cav has a good margin to the fence and seeing as he was faster at the moment, he is clearly grabbing the wheel of Demare which the second picture clearly shows. And again, a clear margin to the fence.

Sagan clearly pushes infront of Cav as he was passing him, causing the crash.
 

KGB

Apr 16, 2015
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Re:

rick james said:
did he cause the first crash?
Apparently he caused all crashed till today.UCI was afraid he will send home all riders before they reach Paris and ruined tour so instead of that they send him home and even Demare have now chance to win green and attract more more french people to watch it.
 
Nov 29, 2010
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Just for the record head commissar Philippe Mariën says the reason they threw Sagan off the Tour was because of the elbow. They said it looked deliberate.

Nothing to do with any line deviations for any rider, 100% elbow.
 

KGB

Apr 16, 2015
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Yeah but Cav said he didn't mind if ho crossed his line but angry only with elbow but another hand Sagan flick elbow because Cav hit him.So what was there actually problem to send him home?
 

KGB

Apr 16, 2015
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Re:

deValtos said:
Just for the record head commissar Philippe Mariën says the reason they threw Sagan off the Tour was because of the elbow. They said it looked deliberate.

Nothing to do with any line deviations for any rider, 100% elbow.
Lol because of elbow?
 
Re: Re:

Angliru said:
@Walkman

Ignorance is seeing what you want to see and closing your eyes to all that doesn't support your biased perspective.
Comes from the guy who doesn't even want to repsond to a question.
You screaming "biased" over and over. Enjoy your sour grapes.
 
Nov 29, 2010
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Honestly people who say he caused the first crash just have an agenda. 2nd crash, have your opinion, it's very debatable, but that first one? Lol cmon. FDJ guy gets bashed 2m over the road into Sagan. That's that.
 
looked at it several times more (i'm sure everyone else did too). Sagan shuts the door on Cav (you can probably argue he sees Demare go and follows, not knowing Cav is there until it's too late). He is at fault for 50% of the crash because of this move. Cav COULD have braked or backed off, but did not let up at all. He is 50% guilty. He leans into Sagan with the shoulder, PS loses a little balance. Cav now starts to go down, PS puts the elbow out for a counter balance. The elbow is a reaction to his body moving to the left (Bouhanni does the same thing right after, but it's a quicker movement).

He holds the elbow out to protect his position I think, but clearly Cav has already gone down (Bouhanni brings his elbow in immediately). So the question is - does holding the elbow out for an extended period warrant a DQ? Because if shutting the door on someone warrants a DQ from the race, then why don't we see it all the time? It happened at least 2 other times in this sprint alone. Froome should have been DQ'd from the Dauphine for this move on Porte too, very similar. But no action taken.

I know Cav referenced the elbow in the interview, but the elbow did not come out until he was going down and it came out as a counter balance initially, to Cav's leaning in.

Sagan should feel hard done by here (unless there is something we don't know about the ruling yet).
 
Mar 15, 2016
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I think it's a good time for him to consider missing the Tour next year and doing Classics+Giro.

Of course his contract probably doesn't allow him to miss the Tour...
 
Re:

Son of Amsterhammer said:
looked at it several times more (i'm sure everyone else did too). Sagan shuts the door on Cav (you can probably argue he sees Demare go and follows, not knowing Cav is there until it's too late). He is at fault for 50% of the crash because of this move. Cav COULD have braked or backed off, but did not let up at all. He is 50% guilty. He leans into Sagan with the shoulder, PS loses a little balance. Cav now starts to go down, PS puts the elbow out for a counter balance. The elbow is a reaction to his body moving to the left (Bouhanni does the same thing right after, but it's a quicker movement).

He holds the elbow out to protect his position I think, but clearly Cav has already gone down (Bouhanni brings his elbow in immediately). So the question is - does holding the elbow out for an extended period warrant a DQ? Because if shutting the door on someone warrants a DQ from the race, then why don't we see it all the time? It happened at least 2 other times in this sprint alone. Froome should have been DQ'd from the Dauphine for this move on Porte too, very similar. But no action taken.

I know Cav referenced the elbow in the interview, but the elbow did not come out until he was going down and it came out as a counter balance initially, to Cav's leaning in.

Sagan should feel hard done by here (unless there is something we don't know about the ruling yet).
The question is why does he lean in?
 
Re: Re:

Walkman said:
Angliru said:
@Walkman

Ignorance is seeing what you want to see and closing your eyes to all that doesn't support your biased perspective.
Comes from the guy who doesn't even want to repsond to a question.
You screaming "biased" over and over. Enjoy your sour grapes.
Your first image could not be viewed. The second does nothing to change my opinion. Maybe you need a timeout to gather yourself and catch your breath?

Sour grapes? I happen to like and respect both riders.
 
Re:

Son of Amsterhammer said:
looked at it several times more (i'm sure everyone else did too). Sagan shuts the door on Cav (you can probably argue he sees Demare go and follows, not knowing Cav is there until it's too late). He is at fault for 50% of the crash because of this move. Cav COULD have braked or backed off, but did not let up at all. He is 50% guilty. He leans into Sagan with the shoulder, PS loses a little balance. Cav now starts to go down, PS puts the elbow out for a counter balance. The elbow is a reaction to his body moving to the left (Bouhanni does the same thing right after, but it's a quicker movement).

He holds the elbow out to protect his position I think, but clearly Cav has already gone down (Bouhanni brings his elbow in immediately). So the question is - does holding the elbow out for an extended period warrant a DQ? Because if shutting the door on someone warrants a DQ from the race, then why don't we see it all the time? It happened at least 2 other times in this sprint alone. Froome should have been DQ'd from the Dauphine for this move on Porte too, very similar. But no action taken.

I know Cav referenced the elbow in the interview, but the elbow did not come out until he was going down and it came out as a counter balance initially, to Cav's leaning in.

Sagan should feel hard done by here (unless there is something we don't know about the ruling yet).
There isn't.

From real time pictures it's difficult to not see Sagan being guilty and deliberately elbowing Cavendish to crash. Frame-by-frame pictures show that he is much less guilty and violent than initially believed. The commissaires have probably only seen the real-time or slow motion footage and not the frame-by-frame-breakdown. If they were to see that, they would probably realise that they are in the wrong with this decision, but reversions of decisions are hardly ever seen.

I will be surprised if they reverse it, even though I believe that is the only right thing to do.
 
Re: Re:

tobydawq said:
Son of Amsterhammer said:
looked at it several times more (i'm sure everyone else did too). Sagan shuts the door on Cav (you can probably argue he sees Demare go and follows, not knowing Cav is there until it's too late). He is at fault for 50% of the crash because of this move. Cav COULD have braked or backed off, but did not let up at all. He is 50% guilty. He leans into Sagan with the shoulder, PS loses a little balance. Cav now starts to go down, PS puts the elbow out for a counter balance. The elbow is a reaction to his body moving to the left (Bouhanni does the same thing right after, but it's a quicker movement).

He holds the elbow out to protect his position I think, but clearly Cav has already gone down (Bouhanni brings his elbow in immediately). So the question is - does holding the elbow out for an extended period warrant a DQ? Because if shutting the door on someone warrants a DQ from the race, then why don't we see it all the time? It happened at least 2 other times in this sprint alone. Froome should have been DQ'd from the Dauphine for this move on Porte too, very similar. But no action taken.

I know Cav referenced the elbow in the interview, but the elbow did not come out until he was going down and it came out as a counter balance initially, to Cav's leaning in.

Sagan should feel hard done by here (unless there is something we don't know about the ruling yet).
There isn't.

From real time pictures it's difficult to not see Sagan being guilty and deliberately elbowing Cavendish to crash. Frame-by-frame pictures show that he is much less guilty and violent than initially believed. The commissaires have probably only seen the real-time or slow motion footage and not the frame-by-frame-breakdown. If they were to see that, they would probably realise that they are in the wrong with this decision, but reversions of decisions are hardly ever seen.

I will be surprised if they reverse it, even though I believe that is the only right thing to do.
I'm in full agreement. The frame by frame viewing is what many here and the commisares have neglected to look at. There should be apologies all around, especially with name calling and insults that have been spewed because some are too lazy to take the time.
 
Jul 4, 2009
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Re:

deValtos said:
Just for the record head commissar Philippe Mariën says the reason they threw Sagan off the Tour was because of the elbow. They said it looked deliberate.

Nothing to do with any line deviations for any rider, 100% elbow.
...well if it was 100% elbow this frame by frame replay doesn't make sense on an absolute 100% level...the elbow is definitely out but its in front of and above Cavendish...and then there is the obvious lean into Sagan from Cavendish before he loses his balance ( and from the overhead shot you can see him initiate that lean as he approaches Sagan from behind ).... maybe the contact was made in the split second Sagan was behind Demarre but that can't be the basis for the 100% statement....it looks more like Cavendish's handlebars hit Sagan's butt....really too bad the trees got in the way of the overhead shot which would have been definitive...

....the frame by frame video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykdWbvtWprI

....the overhead that shows Cavendish starting to lean early because(?) he knows he is heading into a space where there will be contact and if you know there will be contact you lean into it as hard as you can ( and there was contact and he lost the battle )....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7eKOlHUY2E

Cheers
 
Re: Re:

Walkman said:
Son of Amsterhammer said:
looked at it several times more (i'm sure everyone else did too). Sagan shuts the door on Cav (you can probably argue he sees Demare go and follows, not knowing Cav is there until it's too late). He is at fault for 50% of the crash because of this move. Cav COULD have braked or backed off, but did not let up at all. He is 50% guilty. He leans into Sagan with the shoulder, PS loses a little balance. Cav now starts to go down, PS puts the elbow out for a counter balance. The elbow is a reaction to his body moving to the left (Bouhanni does the same thing right after, but it's a quicker movement).

He holds the elbow out to protect his position I think, but clearly Cav has already gone down (Bouhanni brings his elbow in immediately). So the question is - does holding the elbow out for an extended period warrant a DQ? Because if shutting the door on someone warrants a DQ from the race, then why don't we see it all the time? It happened at least 2 other times in this sprint alone. Froome should have been DQ'd from the Dauphine for this move on Porte too, very similar. But no action taken.

I know Cav referenced the elbow in the interview, but the elbow did not come out until he was going down and it came out as a counter balance initially, to Cav's leaning in.

Sagan should feel hard done by here (unless there is something we don't know about the ruling yet).
The question is why does he lean in?
He leans in to avoid the idiot fan who didn't have the common sense to move his arms from the rider's path. Like I said before, you see only what you want to see.
 

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