Peter Sagan discussion thread.

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May 26, 2010
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This is the ASO's race. The UCI might run things up front, but if ASO wants something they get it. Jury might be selected by UCI but if ASO want Sagan back in the race i reckon he will be back in.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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Re: Re:

AICA ribonucleotide said:
jmdirt said:
Gorecki said:
That's funny, an incomplete video with inaccurate captions is where you are leaving it.

At the point that your video starts, PS has already moved over. Look at seconds 3 and 4, MC already has the line (he's not trying to squeeze as some have said), and PS comes over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0MgSNtiCI
Indeed we can debate it either way but lets not base things off an edited video with "jet fuel can't melt steel beams" annotations


From what I can see its Sagan moving across Cavendish's line, Cavendish leans in to him as he falls, Sagan feels a touch and throws an elbow.

The way I see It doesn't matter if the elbow caused the fall. There isn't a point were it's now okay for Sagan to throw an elbow.

Up until the elbow it's just a racing incident.
With the elbow we are into the Mark Renshaw headbutting area.

Renshaw got kicked off the race for that. Sagan is borderline.

I personally have lost a bet on Sagan getting the Green Jersey.
Your language and use of 'throw' needs to be examined.

Throw implies intent. Wanting to do it.

It's not the same as a quick twitch based reaction.

This is clearly not the same as head butting. That incident by Renshaw, and also I'd use Robbie McEwen against Stuart O'Grady way back when as proof, that they definitely intended to make contact.

You may need to watch more cycling. When a rider wants to cause an accident and hit someone, they really do it and it's obvious.

This was not one of those scenarios. But you can misuse the English language all you like, but Sagan didn't "throw" an elbow. He moved his elbow upwards after having contact made with his posterior.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
This is the ASO's race. The UCI might run things up front, but if ASO wants something they get it. Jury might be selected by UCI but if ASO want Sagan back in the race i reckon he will be back in.
The peloton can demand it.

Why not have an elder statesman stand up and make a claim.

If Greipel asked all the other teams do they think the reaction was too far, couldn't they all make a stand and ask for Peter to be let back in?

Stage 5 hasn't started yet.

IMO the riders can swing their huge power and demand him back in.

Who wants a Sky train? I know you don't.

There were 893 comments on the race article on this website 2 hours ago. A record. Most fans want him back in...

So they can put their foot down and give him a warning, and let him back in.

Stuff the UCI rules...it's the ASO's race like you said. The French organisers can show some gumption and back bone.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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Walkman said:
Well, care to comment on these pictures?

From above:
http://i.imgur.com/9QTHNdI.jpg

From the front:
http://i.imgur.com/jiILcY0.jpg

The first picture show Cav has a good margin to the fence and seeing as he was faster at the moment, he is clearly grabbing the wheel of Demare which the second picture clearly shows. And again, a clear margin to the fence.

Sagan clearly pushes infront of Cav as he was passing him, causing the crash.
Of course I will comment.

Get a link that works please. Then you'll get a proper response.

Lots of these missing links are being posted. Lots of them.

Aren't their rules on this stuff? It's only a few hours after the stage...the links didn't vanish overnight did they!?!?
 
Re: Re:

Galic Ho said:
Without a doubt. Nacer did well to avoid crashing. And since the only wrong thing Sagan did was to slowly change his line to the right, it speaks volumes that Démare's huge and more radical swung can be ignored by the race jury. I guess the race jury had to come up with the obviously flawed 'elbow reason' in order to be able to let Démare go free
This.

Better remember no chicken wings in the future. No chicken wings = no disqualification = totally legit.
Did Cofidis make a reclamation? No. Case closed :) .
 
Aug 12, 2009
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rick james said:
https://u.nya.is/jdkpym.mp4

caused the first crash
You can post a link to a video till the cows come home.

But none of us know what you personally saw.

Explain it please.

Tell us how you interpret this video.

When you do that, you'll have made an actual point rather than just made a blanket statement which covers what exactly?

Your opinion with no explanation or justification.

Want to be smart...show us. Make your case. We've got time.
 
Tonton said:
Had Nacer hit the ground, Nono would have been sanctioned. No doubt. And that's a big difference between the two. And it used to be that way. as long as no one gets hurt, it's all fine. You play with fire, as long as no one gets hurt, it's OK. It was a game of chicken between Sagan and Cavendish, they both lost. Best rider in the World vs. best TdF sprinter ever, that's a lot of ego...no one was going to give in. That's why the "Demare did something worse" statement is non-sense. No one was hurt.
That logic is really, really flawed. And you know that is not how judgments are made. Bouhanni was declassified twice last year (Paris-Nice and Vattenfall) without anybody being hurt. Judgments really need to be based on an action, not its consequences (and they usually are).
 
Look on the brightside.

Sagan was trending at #1 or #2 for a few hours. It's still #10 in the UK. That's pretty good for cycling. It shows that it's getting a much bigger audience than in the past and becoming more mainstream.
 
tobydawq said:
Tonton said:
Had Nacer hit the ground, Nono would have been sanctioned. No doubt. And that's a big difference between the two. And it used to be that way. as long as no one gets hurt, it's all fine. You play with fire, as long as no one gets hurt, it's OK. It was a game of chicken between Sagan and Cavendish, they both lost. Best rider in the World vs. best TdF sprinter ever, that's a lot of ego...no one was going to give in. That's why the "Demare did something worse" statement is non-sense. No one was hurt.
That logic is really, really flawed. And you know that is not how judgments are made. Bouhanni was declassified twice last year (Paris-Nice and Vattenfall) without anybody being hurt. Judgments really need to be based on an action, not its consequences (and they usually are).
Right. Your actions and punishment really shouldn't be dependent on how good a bike handler/decision maker the rider you're cutting off is.
 
Son of Amsterhammer said:
tobydawq said:
Tonton said:
Had Nacer hit the ground, Nono would have been sanctioned. No doubt. And that's a big difference between the two. And it used to be that way. as long as no one gets hurt, it's all fine. You play with fire, as long as no one gets hurt, it's OK. It was a game of chicken between Sagan and Cavendish, they both lost. Best rider in the World vs. best TdF sprinter ever, that's a lot of ego...no one was going to give in. That's why the "Demare did something worse" statement is non-sense. No one was hurt.
That logic is really, really flawed. And you know that is not how judgments are made. Bouhanni was declassified twice last year (Paris-Nice and Vattenfall) without anybody being hurt. Judgments really need to be based on an action, not its consequences (and they usually are).
Right. Your actions and punishment really shouldn't be dependent on how good a bike handler/decision maker the rider you're cutting off is.
Mod hat on:

You've made this point in three threads now (that I've seen). It's fine in the other two but this is the Sagan thread so let's end this line of discussion here.
 

KGB

Apr 16, 2015
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Tonton said:
Galic Ho said:
Without a doubt. Nacer did well to avoid crashing. And since the only wrong thing Sagan did was to slowly change his line to the right, it speaks volumes that Démare's huge and more radical swung can be ignored by the race jury. I guess the race jury had to come up with the obviously flawed 'elbow reason' in order to be able to let Démare go free
This.

Better remember no chicken wings in the future. No chicken wings = no disqualification = totally legit.
Did Cofidis make a reclamation? No. Case closed :) .
Demare is lucky because Nacer is sweet guy.
 
tobydawq said:
Tonton said:
Had Nacer hit the ground, Nono would have been sanctioned. No doubt. And that's a big difference between the two. And it used to be that way. as long as no one gets hurt, it's all fine. You play with fire, as long as no one gets hurt, it's OK. It was a game of chicken between Sagan and Cavendish, they both lost. Best rider in the World vs. best TdF sprinter ever, that's a lot of ego...no one was going to give in. That's why the "Demare did something worse" statement is non-sense. No one was hurt.
That logic is really, really flawed. And you know that is not how judgments are made. Bouhanni was declassified twice last year (Paris-Nice and Vattenfall) without anybody being hurt. Judgments really need to be based on an action, not its consequences (and they usually are).
There's another way to look at it: Nacer has been treated unfairly. And when he was DQed, where was the outcry? Deafening silence...
 
Re: Re:

KGB said:
Demare is lucky because Nacer is sweet guy.
No...because he didn't fall..sweet and sprinters don't go together. If you believe otherwise, you have never been in a sprint. I have. And I wasn't good, never won. Because I was a little "sweet". The ones who win sprints, they are axe murderers. Bouhanni and Demare hate each other. Credit to Nacer: he knows that Demare won, he would have made the same move. He's not "sweet", but he's fair-play. Has not always been, but he was today. I hope that he wins one.

For Sagan, the season is far from over, he can do three-WC in a row, many more things...he'll be fine.
 
Re: Re:

Galic Ho said:
Walkman said:
Well, care to comment on these pictures?

From above:
http://i.imgur.com/9QTHNdI.jpg

From the front:
http://i.imgur.com/jiILcY0.jpg

The first picture show Cav has a good margin to the fence and seeing as he was faster at the moment, he is clearly grabbing the wheel of Demare which the second picture clearly shows. And again, a clear margin to the fence.

Sagan clearly pushes infront of Cav as he was passing him, causing the crash.
Of course I will comment.

Get a link that works please. Then you'll get a proper response.

Lots of these missing links are being posted. Lots of them.

Aren't their rules on this stuff? It's only a few hours after the stage...the links didn't vanish overnight did they!?!?
The post was not directed at you, obviously. But, sure if you want to discuss, that's great.
Both links works fine for me, does neither work for you?
 
cineteq said:
Is it still time for ASO to reinstate Sagan for stage 5?

- Cavendish pushed Sagan with his head to his left, while having no room to pass
- Inertia caused Cavendish to bounce and crash against the barrier
- Sagan lifted his right elbow in order to get his balance back as he was looking to follow Demare's wheel
- This was happening at 60km/h

Kopuliak said:
What is with people using this incomplete video?! Get a video that starts about 10 seconds earlier, then you might understand...
 
jmdirt said:
cineteq said:
Is it still time for ASO to reinstate Sagan for stage 5?

- Cavendish pushed Sagan with his head to his left, while having no room to pass
- Inertia caused Cavendish to bounce and crash against the barrier
- Sagan lifted his right elbow in order to get his balance back as he was looking to follow Demare's wheel
- This was happening at 60km/h

Kopuliak said:
What is with people using this incomplete video?! Get a video that starts about 10 seconds earlier, then you might understand...
I agree. Kind of ridiculous, and dishonest, to keep posting the highly edited video.
Not exactly "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZixKg9pNUe
Agree or disagree with the DQ, but don't present a doctored video as evidence.
(EDIT: Sorry if this has already been posted, I haven't read many other pages of this thread)
 
cineteq said:
All you need to do is ask a sprinter...how about Greipel? Cavendish is a repeat offender, then you might understand
jmdirt said:
What is with people using this incomplete video?! Get a video that starts about 10 seconds earlier, then you might understand...
Are you sure that AG isn't talking about a different situation? It doesn't matter if MC has caused 1,000 crashes before today, he was there and PS moved him off his line. Of course he leaned in once PS moved him because he had nowhere to go. Based on your reply, you aren't interested in what really happened so don't worry about looking for a video that shows the entire sprint.
 
May 3, 2010
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I thought cavendish's line was pretty consistent compared to the rest of them. "Rest of them" meaning not just sagan. The entire group deviated from their line. If you look at the footage and don't get caught up in just Sagan/Cav notice that all the riders move across the road pushing the group further against the rail and that likely contributed to sagan closing out Cav and narrowing what was originally a large gap. There was a heck of lot of movement from the front 5 riders and I feel like it is a domino affect.

The contact and elbow shot was too short for me to kick someone out of the race for it. It would be different if it was going on for a while, but it was just a moment and his hands never left the bars. Bad call kicking him out of the race. In general the entire bunch in that sprint was all over a fairly straight road. Stuff happens. Real shame for both of them.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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Brullnux said:
Look on the brightside.

Sagan was trending at #1 or #2 for a few hours. It's still #10 in the UK. That's pretty good for cycling. It shows that it's getting a much bigger audience than in the past and becoming more mainstream.
How does it?

Cookson's son is linked to Dimension Data.

It looks like the Brits pulled political power and manipulated the UCI race jury.

In a sporting event where Sagan was the only distraction from some other British riders dominating...under conditions best talked of in the Clinic.

It looks exceptionally corrupt and wrong.

Bora really need to push this and demand an answer from Cookson. Leverage the French rival for UCI presidency to investigate.

Maybe then we'll see the French win the Tour again!!

Surely TonTon likes the sound of that...

Yeah, this looks really bad for the Brits when you link the power behind the scenes...and it makes the French look like they're capitulating and doing nothing; surrendering in a way. They should be proactive and over ride this BS.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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Walkman said:
Galic Ho said:
Walkman said:
Well, care to comment on these pictures?

From above:
http://i.imgur.com/9QTHNdI.jpg

From the front:
http://i.imgur.com/jiILcY0.jpg

The first picture show Cav has a good margin to the fence and seeing as he was faster at the moment, he is clearly grabbing the wheel of Demare which the second picture clearly shows. And again, a clear margin to the fence.

Sagan clearly pushes infront of Cav as he was passing him, causing the crash.
Of course I will comment.

Get a link that works please. Then you'll get a proper response.

Lots of these missing links are being posted. Lots of them.

Aren't their rules on this stuff? It's only a few hours after the stage...the links didn't vanish overnight did they!?!?
The post was not directed at you, obviously. But, sure if you want to discuss, that's great.
Both links works fine for me, does neither work for you?
Neither works.

I have a pic from the Aussie SBS side of things showing a front on pic of Cav leaning into Sagan.

The whole incident with them took place over 1 to 1.5 seconds max. A still image doesn't show everything.

IMO...Greipel started this about 2 seconds before. Over 3-4 seconds Greipel, Bouhani, Demare and Sagan all swung to the right (Demare also then swung aggressively back to the left just before Sagan and Cav collided) and only Kristoff kept his line.

I'd DQ Greipel, Demare and Sagan.

All of them made mistakes.

But viewing this event in sequence across the entire sprint is needed.

The fact the sprint began all the way on the left side barrier, moved to the middle and should have stayed there but didn't begs the viewer to ask why!

The why is clear; Greipel hit Bouhani and it was a sequence of quick short movements at high speed that snuck them all further to the right...had Demare not reacted to Bouhani and cut in front of him, Sagan would have gone between them himself...couldn't, so he went right into the space Demare vacated.

But Greipel started this mess.

Not blaming him, I think it's an accident.

I don't think Sagan's ban is an accident though. That's almost certainly deliberate. Massive over kill and over reaction.
 
Re:

offbyone said:
I thought cavendish's line was pretty consistent compared to the rest of them. "Rest of them" meaning not just sagan. The entire group deviated from their line. If you look at the footage and don't get caught up in just Sagan/Cav notice that all the riders move across the road pushing the group further against the rail and that likely contributed to sagan closing out Cav and narrowing what was originally a large gap. There was a heck of lot of movement from the front 5 riders and I feel like it is a domino affect.

The contact and elbow shot was too short for me to kick someone out of the race for it. It would be different if it was going on for a while, but it was just a moment and his hands never left the bars. Bad call kicking him out of the race. In general the entire bunch in that sprint was all over a fairly straight road. Stuff happens. Real shame for both of them.
Again, agree or disagree with the DQ ... but there was nobody on Sagan's left that caused him to
go right and force Cavendish into the hoardings ... and that is clearly shown in the overhead shot
in the video I posted upthread.
 
Actually, I did watch the video again. It reinforces what i said before. I invite you to watch it and ignore Cav for a moment and focus on what Sagan was doing to catch Demare. Even relegation would've been ridiculous
jmdirt said:
cineteq said:
All you need to do is ask a sprinter...how about Greipel? Cavendish is a repeat offender, then you might understand
jmdirt said:
What is with people using this incomplete video?! Get a video that starts about 10 seconds earlier, then you might understand...
Are you sure that AG isn't talking about a different situation? It doesn't matter if MC has caused 1,000 crashes before today, he was there and PS moved him off his line. Of course he leaned in once PS moved him because he had nowhere to go. Based on your reply, you aren't interested in what really happened so don't worry about looking for a video that shows the entire sprint.
 

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