Teams & Riders Peter Sagan discussion thread.

[jmdirt]

Actually, I did watch the video again. It reinforces what i said before. I invite you to watch it and ignore Cav for a moment and focus on what Sagan was doing to catch Demare. Even relegation would've been ridiculous

All you need to do is ask a sprinter...how about Greipel? Cavendish is a repeat offender, then you might understand

What is with people using this incomplete video?! Get a video that starts about 10 seconds earlier, then you might understand...

Are you sure that AG isn't talking about a different situation? It doesn't matter if MC has caused 1,000 crashes before today, he was there and PS moved him off his line. Of course he leaned in once PS moved him because he had nowhere to go. Based on your reply, you aren't interested in what really happened so don't worry about looking for a video that shows the entire sprint.

Its actually easy to ignore MC because he stayed on nearly the same line until PS pushed him off (actually, Cav was moving slightly away from PS until he ran out of road). Expulsion is too much, relegation was OK (I'm hoping that the UCI reconsiders their decision overnight).

 

[Galic Ho]

Had Nacer hit the ground, Nono would have been sanctioned. No doubt. And that's a big difference between the two. And it used to be that way. as long as no one gets hurt, it's all fine. You play with fire, as long as no one gets hurt, it's OK. It was a game of chicken between Sagan and Cavendish, they both lost. Best rider in the World vs. best TdF sprinter ever, that's a lot of ego...no one was going to give in. That's why the "Demare did something worse" statement is non-sense. No one was hurt.

That logic is really, really flawed. And you know that is not how judgments are made. Bouhanni was declassified twice last year (Paris-Nice and Vattenfall) without anybody being hurt. Judgments really need to be based on an action, not its consequences (and they usually are).

There's another way to look at it: Nacer has been treated unfairly. And when he was DQed, where was the outcry? Deafening silence...

I thought his DQ was excessive at the time.

I generally think most of them are.

The rider I was harshest on...comes from somewhere very close to where I am from.

Mark Renshaw. Absolutely went way too far.

But at the time, he was leading out the entire sprint train with the ENTIRE peloton in tow.

Big contrast with this.

There were 6 of them in the sprint and 3 lead out men just behind...massive difference. Also the reason for the major diversion in racing line here were different.

There still is no reason for 4 of the 6 sprinters to sway towards the far right, 3 of them basically getting on the barrier, when the leadout men pulled off to the right and the sprint headed down the middle of a substantially wide road. The reason? Someone bumbed one rider and started a chain reaction.

Anyway...let's see what happens with Bora.

 

[Tricycle Rider]

If P. Sagan wishes to check other athletes into the boards I would highly suggest he join the NHL where such behavior would be considered legal.

And that's about all I've got to say about that.

 

[rata de sentina]

Already commissaires had warned there would be more scrutiny than usual.
Already Sagan barged Greipel in intermediate sprint, pity they didn't slap his wrist then to save the bludgeon now.

Sagan = Vettel

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re:

If P. Sagan wishes to check other athletes into the boards I would highly suggest he join the NHL where such behavior would be considered legal.

And that's about all I've got to say about that.

Then you've made a decision based on no facts.

Sagan had the dominant position, Cav tried the riskiest line possible to steal the position from Sagan. Some fault to Sagan for "leaving the door opened just a crack." Some fault to Cav for trying that risky move.

Banning Sagan for it isn't right. No one was 100% right. The race has just lost one of the more interesting personalities.

 

[wheresmybrakes]

I think he will get reinstated this morning but be relegated from the stage yesterday with the relevant fine and points deduction. The uproar this decision has caused will look bad on cycling from outside as well as inside the sport. Some will agree with the decision, some won't but I think we'll see him at the start line today.

 

[movingtarget]

I think a points loss and fine would have been enough. It was a rough sprint. Even Demare's first move was reckless and could have brought down others.

 

[MatParker117]

I think he will get reinstated this morning but be relegated from the stage yesterday with the relevant fine and points deduction. The uproar this decision has caused will look bad on cycling from outside as well as inside the sport. Some will agree with the decision, some won't but I think we'll see him at the start line today.

By rule the decision is final.

 

[alter]

I think he will get reinstated this morning but be relegated from the stage yesterday with the relevant fine and points deduction. The uproar this decision has caused will look bad on cycling from outside as well as inside the sport. Some will agree with the decision, some won't but I think we'll see him at the start line today.

By rule the decision is final.

If the decision is final , why it was changed from stage relegation to Tour DQ ?

 

[Electress]

I think he will get reinstated this morning but be relegated from the stage yesterday with the relevant fine and points deduction. The uproar this decision has caused will look bad on cycling from outside as well as inside the sport. Some will agree with the decision, some won't but I think we'll see him at the start line today.

By rule the decision is final.

If the decision is final , why it was changed from stage relegation to Tour DQ ?

It does seem rather unjust that in a decision made outside of racing that there is no right of appeal. I get that during a game or race, the referee's decision has to be respected immediately for things to continue. But outside of the race, surely it would be fairer and less apparently hasty and autocratic, for there to be a right of appeal?

The manner this decision was made gives room for accusations of 'political motivation' 'bias' etc. which the sport is far too vulnerable to in any case.

 

[MagnusMagnussen]

Livestream press conference Sagan:

http://sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrennen/Tour/1.3017115

 

[Dr. Watson]

Re:

Livestream press conference Sagan:

http://sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrennen/Tour/1.3017115

And just like that he´s gone, shame, gonna be borefest now, all we can hope is for Alberto to do some crazy attack

 

[lartiste]

it is over ...

 

[loge1884]

Had Nacer hit the ground, Nono would have been sanctioned. No doubt. And that's a big difference between the two. And it used to be that way. as long as no one gets hurt, it's all fine. You play with fire, as long as no one gets hurt, it's OK. It was a game of chicken between Sagan and Cavendish, they both lost. Best rider in the World vs. best TdF sprinter ever, that's a lot of ego...no one was going to give in. That's why the "Demare did something worse" statement is non-sense. No one was hurt.

sorry Tonton, but your statement is completely wrong (albeit perhaps just being reality ...) ... sanctions should definitely not be given based on the outcome, i.e. no sanctions if no one falls, mild sanctions if someone falls and tough sanctions if someone has to go to hospital ..... sanctions should be given, because someone is not adhering to the rules, regardless what happens next, based on the fact, that breaking the rules is causing a potential danger for others (especially those not breaking it) ....

I am angry Peter Sagan got excluded, most of all, because more than 50% of the entertainment of TdF 2017 seems to be gone now (awaits to be seen of course and might also depend on if Nairo sticks to his never- seriously attack-policy) and also because I believe it is clearly wrong (but so sometimes decisions are) .... Démare got away with punishment and so be it, again I think it's wrong but life goes on ...

 

[d-s3]

Greg Le Mond : "He kept a straight line and the UCI acted too emotionally."

 

[Lupi33x]

what a ridiculous decision by the UCI

he didnt stick his elbow out until after contact was made and that was just to maintain his own balance

McEwan called it correct on first viewing

 

[Bullrun]

The disqualification verdict is utterly absurd. The saving grace is decisions are completely arbitrary and ad hoc from day to day, race to race, year to year, so this is very likely an one-off thing. Imagine they were consistent and this decision would actually set a precedent. By the 3rd or 4th stage, EBH would be cleaning up bunch sprints, and Froome and other GC contende that UCI commissairesrs could hope to win at the Champs Élysées.

 

[jmdirt]

PS was good this morning expressing concern for MC twice.

 

[Pricey_sky]

Re:

PS was good this morning expressing concern for MC twice.

Agreed, also seems no bad feelings on Cav's part either. His interview this morning he said Sagan had called him late last night after he left hospital to apologise again and see how he was. Cav said they remain friends on and off the bike and it was just a shame it ended like this.

 

[blutto]

....a few comments...

Current sports director of Silber Pro Cycling, Gord Fraser was a sprinter for Motorola and Mercury-Viatel during his career and also took to Facebook to share his opinion.

"It's clear that when when Demare launched he'd be the one to beat and Sagan was simply desperate to hitch on. Cav had already gambled up barrier side and had momentum but that half bike length he left behind demare was all the peripheral space Sagan went for. I'm sure PS had zero clue Cav was even there until they made contact and did well to stay upright. Lesson? When you go up the narrow barrier side be prepared for the door to close. Gaviria won taking this risk in the Giro. Sometimes you hit jackpot despite the odds. Unfortunately for Cav it was craps. No foul and certainly no DQ merited. I'd say demare chopping over Bouhani's front wheel was a more conscious and risky move but still within sprinting limitations.

"Here's my beef. Why can't the UCI find some ex pros to take the comms course and insist on one at all times on the race jury? I'm constantly frustrated by officials quoting a rule book w zero practical race experience. A former bunch sprinter on the panel for flat stages and climber for the mountains."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tour-de-france-riders-past-and-present-shocked-by-peter-sagans-disqualification/

The way I interpret it is when you put your elbows out you are protecting your handlebars because when someone hits your handlebars, you go straight down on your arse," he said. "Sagan didn't even hit him [Cavendish] and I think he was just balancing himself. If you use your elbows, it is to make sure someone doesn't lock handlebars with you most of the time. He sensed someone coming up inside and maybe that they were going to come through and snag his handlebars, taking him out. It's self-perseveration. I actually think Cav fell off due to bouncing off Sagan's butt, not his elbow."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cooke-for-sagan-to-be-kicked-out-in-disgrace-is-not-on/

....brilliant analysis by both these gentlemen ....which coincidently nicely reflects my own brilliant analysis....case closed...three points after all define a plane and its plain to the see that the DQ was a tragedy of epic proportions...

Cheers

 

[ihosama]

Re:

... The saving grace is decisions are completely arbitrary and ad hoc from day to day, race to race, year to year, so this is very likely an one-off thing. ...

This is not a saving grace. It is the worst aspect of it all and is why the whole DQ is seen for what it is even by the general public: A farce.

 

[zigmeister]

My two cents:

Andre Demaur is at fault for the entire situation. He went right towards the barriers (clearly he was the fastest sprinter...but still) he moved to the right, Sagan of course followed, Cav was coming up around the right side trying to pass when he can obviously can see that Demaur is coming right off his line, Cav knows that Sagan is likely to follow his wheel and will come over squeezing him. Then Cav makes contact at the rear with Sagan, Sagan braces himself thinking he is about the crash obviously because some idiot (Cav) is trying to come into a hole that no longer exist...and Kaboom.

Then, Demaur cuts back to the left, hits Bouhanni's front wheel almost crashing him...and wins the sprint, while Sagan just follows Demaur again but not cutting across Nassir because he almost gets taken out by that issue with Demaur nearly taking Bouhanni out and just stays on the right side now.

Cav has never been at fault for a sprint crash...EVER!!! :eyesroll:

As a sprinter, there are things I see and know during sprints. Cav knows this as well. Even when you think you are faster, and maybe he was than Sagan, guys will come off there lines if following a wheel, you have to just say f*(k IT and tap the brakes and just give up...rather than crash.

Jim Oschwicz was a moron yesterday on MSNBC TV saying right off that Sagan elbowed him and it was a violent act. Sagan didn't even touch Cav with his elbow. Joke situation. Much worse crap Cav and others have done and nothing done.

 

[Beech Mtn]

along the roadside of the Tour today

 

[Norks74]

Good evening all, and apologies if this has already been discussed...but when was the last time in a grand tour that a rider has faced such a sanction due to a racing incident like the Sagan/Cavendish one? And I don't mean bottle throwing and the like....just mano a mano racing...shoulder to shoulder whilst sprinting in the finale. Not Renshaw's head games for example.

Was it the chap back in the Tour of Turkey a few years back? I am getting old and can't recall.

Thanks in advance

 

[tobydawq]

Good evening all, and apologies if this has already been discussed...but when was the last time in a grand tour that a rider has faced such a sanction due to a racing incident like the Sagan/Cavendish one? And I don't mean bottle throwing and the like....just mano a mano racing...shoulder to shoulder whilst sprinting in the finale. Not Renshaw's head games for example.

Was it the chap back in the Tour of Turkey a few years back? I am getting old and can't recall.

Thanks in advance

That's hardly a Grand Tour. And hardly shoulder to shoulder.

I don't know, though, if it has to be from a sprint. But the last to be thrown out were Ivan Rovny and Gianluca Brambilla (which, however, was due to a regular brawl and not really a racing incident).