Peter Sagan discussion thread.

[Walkman]

Re: Re:

Just for the record head commissar Philippe Mariën says the reason they threw Sagan off the Tour was because of the elbow. They said it looked deliberate.

Nothing to do with any line deviations for any rider, 100% elbow.

...well if it was 100% elbow this frame by frame replay doesn't make sense on an absolute 100% level...the elbow is definitely out but its in front of and above Cavendish...and then there is the obvious lean into Sagan from Cavendish before he loses his balance ( and from the overhead shot you can see him initiate that lean as he approaches Sagan from behind ).... maybe the contact was made in the split second Sagan was behind Demarre but that can't be the basis for the 100% statement....it looks more like Cavendish's handlebars hit Sagan's butt....really too bad the trees got in the way of the overhead shot which would have been definitive...

....the frame by frame video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykdWbvtWprI

....the overhead that shows Cavendish starting to lean early because(?) he knows he is heading into a space where there will be contact ( and there was contact and he lost the battle )....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7eKOlHUY2E

Cheers

Actually, he is vectoring back just before they go under the tree and he is not touching Sagan at that point. Meanwhile, Sagan is clearly moving in a diagonal pattern. I'd argue that is is Sagan who initiates the contact based on that video.

 

[Galic Ho]

Re: Re:

Look here.
https://streamable.com/j7gqb

ASO wants Demate in green, thats the way i see it.

For the 427th time, what the ASO wants doesn't matter, the decisions are made by the race jury which is not french and not related to ASO

And that video starts after Sagan swerves into Cavendish

I missed the stage and normally agree 100% with your statements.

However...this time I don't.

The French journalists, in 1999, knew, they knew in the race tent Lance was doping.

Said nothing.

Look at what a little pressure would have done...they had Lance on the ropes over a saddle cream and a bogus TUE, but nobody pushed back.

What are the French journalists saying?

TonTon, what is your take as a French man?

What are the French saying?

I'd like to hear.

Do I think this is biased? Yes. Sagan is pretty much unbeatable over 21 days.

Heck, he is the reason many of us even watch this bore fest because he tries something to animate this poorly constructed GT (sorry to the French, but it is miles behind the Giro and Vuelta for action and viewing enjoyment). That is all on the ASO (who are in theory mostly French).

Demare should have been penalized too. Who was it who was relegated his stage win at the Giro for diverting his line at the finish? Same thing here. Bouhani was cut in front of. Granted it was CLEAN...but the application of rules shows no consistency.

Relegate Sagan. Cut his points from stage 3 in half...giive him a thorough warning and let the race continue.

But they went for the over the top idiot reaction. Cav got no punishment for practically destroying Simon Gerrans career at the Tour years back (was it 2015?).

Racing is split second reactions. Oh and elbow!!

Was it Mark Renshaw constant barging and head butting into a Garmin rider? Or Robbie McEwen and Stuart O'Grady head barging because "we dislike each other?"

No. Just a racing reaction. Fine him...warn him thorughly, but don't destroy the viewing for millions world wide...that reeks of bias and someone with power pushing numbers. And I am sorry, but it almost certainly has to come for DDD and having Cookson's son work for the team.

Someone made a phone call. Cookson...time for you Brits to pack up and leave the sport. You guys are as corrupt as the Irish and Dutch rulers in the UCI were before you. Time to leave and actually let a Frenchman have a crack.

Yes I am suggesting something is wrong nationalistically and patriotically with political power, but I don't think it's the French. The French have always been reasonably fair by my observations; the UCI however aren't and go where money is. The French know Sagan adds $$$ to viewing revenue and people going to see him win. It's absolutely not in the ASO's interest or the French for him to go home...so have a think people and consider whose value it is...

Cookson is linked to DDD (Dimension Data).

I thought the Valverde and Movistar incident with BMC earlier this season reeked of political interruptions; this is far worse.

BTW: hope Cav is alright. He does make the sprints good when he behaves himself.

P.S: Bora should demand his reinstatement or leave. Make a statement. Just leave. Go to the Vuelta. Where they'd be very welcome.

 

[jmdirt]

Re:

I pretty much agree with Greg Hendersons assessment.

https://www.coachhendy.com/single-post/2017/07/04/Should-He-Be-Thrown-Out-Of-The-Race

So if rider A and B are in line one, its OK for rider C to change from line three to line one while forcing rider B out of that line?

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

Just for the record head commissar Philippe Mariën says the reason they threw Sagan off the Tour was because of the elbow. They said it looked deliberate.

Nothing to do with any line deviations for any rider, 100% elbow.

In that case they are taking into account the intention because it didn't touch him.

Hec, not sure if there was any intention there.

The only thing that I saw really wrong was his line deviation!

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

Just for the record head commissar Philippe Mariën says the reason they threw Sagan off the Tour was because of the elbow. They said it looked deliberate.

Nothing to do with any line deviations for any rider, 100% elbow.

...well if it was 100% elbow this frame by frame replay doesn't make sense on an absolute 100% level...the elbow is definitely out but its in front of and above Cavendish...and then there is the obvious lean into Sagan from Cavendish before he loses his balance ( and from the overhead shot you can see him initiate that lean as he approaches Sagan from behind ).... maybe the contact was made in the split second Sagan was behind Demarre but that can't be the basis for the 100% statement....it looks more like Cavendish's handlebars hit Sagan's butt....really too bad the trees got in the way of the overhead shot which would have been definitive...

....the frame by frame video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykdWbvtWprI

....the overhead that shows Cavendish starting to lean early because(?) he knows he is heading into a space where there will be contact ( and there was contact and he lost the battle )....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7eKOlHUY2E

Cheers

Actually, he is vectoring back just before they go under the tree and he is not touching Sagan at that point. Meanwhile, Sagan is clearly moving in a diagonal pattern. I'd argue that is is Sagan who initiates the contact based on that video.

...so why is Cavendish starting to lean well before the contact....he easily could have slowed down as he really had no gap to thru...Henderson is right on this one...

Cheers

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

Just for the record head commissar Philippe Mariën says the reason they threw Sagan off the Tour was because of the elbow. They said it looked deliberate.

Nothing to do with any line deviations for any rider, 100% elbow.

In that case they are taking into account the intention because it didn't touch him.

Hec, not sure if there was any intention there.

The only thing that I saw really wrong was his line deviation!

....geez, if it were line deviation Demare should have been given a vacation to Siberia as well as being tossed...I can't believe Bouhanni stayed upright...

Cheers

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

Look here.
https://streamable.com/j7gqb

ASO wants Demate in green, thats the way i see it.

For the 427th time, what the ASO wants doesn't matter, the decisions are made by the race jury which is not french and not related to ASO

And that video starts after Sagan swerves into Cavendish

I missed the stage and normally agree 100% with your statements.

However...this time I don't.

The French journalists, in 1999, knew, they knew in the race tent Lance was doping.

Said nothing.

Look at what a little pressure would have done...they had Lance on the ropes over a saddle cream and a bogus TUE, but nobody pushed back.

What are the French journalists saying?

TonTon, what is your take as a French man?

What are the French saying?

I'd like to hear.

Do I think this is biased? Yes. Sagan is pretty much unbeatable over 21 days.

Heck, he is the reason many of us even watch this bore fest because he tries something to animate this poorly constructed GT (sorry to the French, but it is miles behind the Giro and Vuelta for action and viewing enjoyment). That is all on the ASO (who are in theory mostly French).

Demare should have been penalized too. Who was it who was relegated his stage win at the Giro for diverting his line at the finish? Same thing here. Bouhani was cut in front of. Granted it was CLEAN...but the application of rules shows no consistency.

Relegate Sagan. Cut his points from stage 3 in half...giive him a thorough warning and let the race continue.

But they went for the over the top idiot reaction. Cav got no punishment for practically destroying Simon Gerrans career at the Tour years back (was it 2015?).

Racing is split second reactions. Oh and elbow!!

Was it Mark Renshaw constant barging and head butting into a Garmin rider? Or Robbie McEwen and Stuart O'Grady head barging because "we dislike each other?"

No. Just a racing reaction. Fine him...warn him thorughly, but don't destroy the viewing for millions world wide...that reeks of bias and someone with power pushing numbers. And I am sorry, but it almost certainly has to come for DDD and having Cookson's son work for the team.

Someone made a phone call. Cookson...time for you Brits to pack up and leave the sport. You guys are as corrupt as the Irish and Dutch rulers in the UCI were before you. Time to leave and actually let a Frenchman have a crack.

Yes I am suggesting something is wrong nationalistically and patriotically with political power, but I don't think it's the French. The French have always been reasonably fair by my observations; the UCI however aren't and go where money is. The French know Sagan adds $$$ to viewing revenue and people going to see him win. It's absolutely not in the ASO's interest or the French for him to go home...so have a think people and consider whose value it is...

Cookson is linked to DDD (Dimension Data).

I thought the Valverde and Movistar incident with BMC earlier this season reeked of political interruptions; this is far worse.

BTW: hope Cav is alright. He does make the sprints good when he behaves himself.

P.S: Bora should demand his reinstatement or leave. Make a statement. Just leave. Go to the Vuelta. Where they'd be very welcome.

Reading l'equipe just a few minutes ago, there's a poll up there and as always in France, it's one half against the other pretty much. Half hate Sagan, half love him, nobody tries to see what really happened, it's gut reaction. The Nacer fans are humiliated that Demare won and got the jersey in Nacer's hometown, so they bash Demare. They do regardless. At least no GC action, so for Bardet and Pinot fans to troll, we'll have to wait.

Same old France: 50-50, no unity . But the fact that l'Equipe has the article shows that the journalistic feeling is that the sanction was too much. That's my interpretation. And my personal feeling too: I think that King Sagan tried to bully Cav' out of Demare's wheel, Cav' is pig-headed, a split-second game of chicken turned into a crash. To me, Sagan deserves the majority of the blame, not all of it though.

Then ASO and/or UCI making a stand is a posture. Showing that "something is getting done in cycling". I'm surprised that they dare touching the golden child. Politics. It also seems like UK team can whine and get their ways, i.e. Sky on the Ventoux stage last year. Just my opinion here.

 

[jmdirt]

I wonder if there is any chance of of the jury watching more footage, and going back to their original decision?

 

[Galic Ho]

Re:

He can´t appeal it so what´s done is done. We should just get over it and stop making it more dramatic than it really is. He did win a stage, so it´s not exactly a distaster. And it´s not the end of the season either.

Peter Sagan saved the 2016 Tour.

And the 2015 Tour as well from being a one team procession to Paris.

But...if you want boredom, eliminating the most prolific attacking rider in the peloton will do exactly that, add boredom.

You better hope Sky falter, or the complaints will erupt like Vesuvius exploding forth her lava goodies.

 

[Angliru]

Re:

I pretty much agree with Greg Hendersons assessment.

https://www.coachhendy.com/single-post/2017/07/04/Should-He-Be-Thrown-Out-Of-The-Race

Me too. Henderson and Greipel must be the "ignorant" folk that Walkman is talking about.

 

[tobydawq]

Re: Re:

Look here.
https://streamable.com/j7gqb

ASO wants Demate in green, thats the way i see it.

For the 427th time, what the ASO wants doesn't matter, the decisions are made by the race jury which is not french and not related to ASO

And that video starts after Sagan swerves into Cavendish

I missed the stage and normally agree 100% with your statements.

However...this time I don't.

The French journalists, in 1999, knew, they knew in the race tent Lance was doping.

Said nothing.

Look at what a little pressure would have done...they had Lance on the ropes over a saddle cream and a bogus TUE, but nobody pushed back.

What are the French journalists saying?

TonTon, what is your take as a French man?

What are the French saying?

I'd like to hear.

Do I think this is biased? Yes. Sagan is pretty much unbeatable over 21 days.

Heck, he is the reason many of us even watch this bore fest because he tries something to animate this poorly constructed GT (sorry to the French, but it is miles behind the Giro and Vuelta for action and viewing enjoyment). That is all on the ASO (who are in theory mostly French).

Demare should have been penalized too. Who was it who was relegated his stage win at the Giro for diverting his line at the finish? Same thing here. Bouhani was cut in front of. Granted it was CLEAN...but the application of rules shows no consistency.

Relegate Sagan. Cut his points from stage 3 in half...giive him a thorough warning and let the race continue.

But they went for the over the top idiot reaction. Cav got no punishment for practically destroying Simon Gerrans career at the Tour years back (was it 2015?).

Racing is split second reactions. Oh and elbow!!

Was it Mark Renshaw constant barging and head butting into a Garmin rider? Or Robbie McEwen and Stuart O'Grady head barging because "we dislike each other?"

No. Just a racing reaction. Fine him...warn him thorughly, but don't destroy the viewing for millions world wide...that reeks of bias and someone with power pushing numbers. And I am sorry, but it almost certainly has to come for DDD and having Cookson's son work for the team.

Someone made a phone call. Cookson...time for you Brits to pack up and leave the sport. You guys are as corrupt as the Irish and Dutch rulers in the UCI were before you. Time to leave and actually let a Frenchman have a crack.

Yes I am suggesting something is wrong nationalistically and patriotically with political power, but I don't think it's the French. The French have always been reasonably fair by my observations; the UCI however aren't and go where money is. The French know Sagan adds $$$ to viewing revenue and people going to see him win. It's absolutely not in the ASO's interest or the French for him to go home...so have a think people and consider whose value it is...

Cookson is linked to DDD (Dimension Data).

I thought the Valverde and Movistar incident with BMC earlier this season reeked of political interruptions; this is far worse.

BTW: hope Cav is alright. He does make the sprints good when he behaves himself.

P.S: Bora should demand his reinstatement or leave. Make a statement. Just leave. Go to the Vuelta. Where they'd be very welcome.

Reading l'equipe just a few minutes ago, there's a poll up there and as always in France, it's one half against the other pretty much. Half hate Sagan, half love him, nobody tries to see what really happened, it's gut reaction. The Nacer fans are humiliated that Demare won and got the jersey in Nacer's hometown, so they bash Demare. They do regardless. At least no GC action, so for Bardet and Pinot fans to troll, we'll have to wait.

Same old France: 50-50, no unity . But the fact that l'Equipe has the article shows that the journalistic feeling is that the sanction was too much. That's my interpretation. And my personal feeling too: I think that King Sagan tried to bully Cav' out of Demare's wheel, Cav' is pig-headed, a split-second game of chicken turned into a crash. To me, Sagan deserves the majority of the blame, not all of it though.

Then ASO and/or UCI making a stand is a posture. Showing that "something is getting done in cycling". I'm surprised that they dare touching the golden child. Politics. It also seems like UK team can whine and get their ways, i.e. Sky on the Ventoux stage last year. Just my opinion here.

It's not bashing him if they are complaining about his insanely reckless maneouvre that only miraculously didn't result in Bouhanni crashing. It's completely fair to be angry about that and he should be very glad that the Sagan-Cavendish altercation stole all the focus of the commissaires.

 

[Walkman]

Re: Re:

He can´t appeal it so what´s done is done. We should just get over it and stop making it more dramatic than it really is. He did win a stage, so it´s not exactly a distaster. And it´s not the end of the season either.

Peter Sagan saved the 2016 Tour.

And the 2015 Tour as well from being a one team procession to Paris.

But...if you want boredom, eliminating the most prolific attacking rider in the peloton will do exactly that, add boredom.

You better hope Sky falter, or the complaints will erupt like Vesuvius exploding forth her lava goodies.

Luckily, they don't exclude people on the premise on whether they are funny or boring.

 

[Electress]

It strikes me that where there is this much room for debate - as the sheer number of pro-cyclists and ex-pro cyclists let alone every commentator / man and his dog - weighing in with their interpretation on both sides - it has to be considered rather harsh to declare 'the elbow' intentional. And if there is genuinely room for doubt - I think they should not have DQ'd.

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

It's not bashing him if they are complaining about his insanely reckless maneouvre that only miraculously didn't result in Bouhanni crashing. It's completely fair to be angry about that and he should be very glad that the Sagan-Cavendish altercation stole all the focus of the commissaires.

Except that these "fans" were also putting red thumbs when Nono got second a couple of days ago and was getting some cheerful comments. Fact. When Pinot wins, he gets as many red thumbs a s he gets the green. When Bardet wins, same thing. Deplorable. Those are not fans. Those are people who need a life. Pointing at Demare, for some Sagan fans in this forum is OK by me if they admitted that he did something wrong. But they blame Cav, then Demare, the French conspiracy, everyboody...but Sagan...

 

[lartiste]

Re: Re:

He can´t appeal it so what´s done is done. We should just get over it and stop making it more dramatic than it really is. He did win a stage, so it´s not exactly a distaster. And it´s not the end of the season either.

Peter Sagan saved the 2016 Tour.

And the 2015 Tour as well from being a one team procession to Paris.

But...if you want boredom, eliminating the most prolific attacking rider in the peloton will do exactly that, add boredom.

You better hope Sky falter, or the complaints will erupt like Vesuvius exploding forth her lava goodies.

Luckily, they don't exclude people on the premise on whether they are funny or boring.

Yes clearly it is more fair to exclude people based on their nationality, great UCI!

 

[tobydawq]

Re: Re:

It's not bashing him if they are complaining about his insanely reckless maneouvre that only miraculously didn't result in Bouhanni crashing. It's completely fair to be angry about that and he should be very glad that the Sagan-Cavendish altercation stole all the focus of the commissaires.

Except that these "fans" were also putting red thumbs when Nono got second a couple of days ago and was getting some cheerful comments. Fact. When Pinot wins, he gets as many red thumbs a s he gets the green. When Bardet wins, same thing. Deplorable. Those are not fans. Those are people who need a life. Pointing at Demare, for some Sagan fans in this forum is OK by me if they admitted that he did something wrong. But they blame Cav, then Demare, the French conspiracy, everyboody...but Sagan...

I'm just saying that if you look on the Démare swerve isolatedly (not taking in consideration what is happening to his right as that has nothing to do with him), it is definitely out of line and punishable (not DQ material but declassification).

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Re:

Just for the record head commissar Philippe Mariën says the reason they threw Sagan off the Tour was because of the elbow. They said it looked deliberate.

Nothing to do with any line deviations for any rider, 100% elbow.

In that case they are taking into account the intention because it didn't touch him.

Hec, not sure if there was any intention there.

The only thing that I saw really wrong was his line deviation!

....geez, if it were line deviation Demare should have been given a vacation to Siberia as well as being tossed...I can't believe Bouhanni stayed upright...

Cheers

LOL.

I am sure many others as well.

The problem is that in this case it sent the other rider to the hospital.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

"Someone with influence". Yeah, because people had a vested interest in kicking the most marketable guy out of the race. Yeah right.

According to Dimesnion Data that would be Cav right and his team just nullified a competitor for sprint finishes :lol:

Jeez UCI/ASO thought it was ok for the same guy to win it 5 years in a row and make it a borefest, then they got another guy to win it 7 times in a row!!!!

....yeah who's son works for which team ?...

Cheers

 

[Cance > TheRest]

Re: Re:

It's not bashing him if they are complaining about his insanely reckless maneouvre that only miraculously didn't result in Bouhanni crashing. It's completely fair to be angry about that and he should be very glad that the Sagan-Cavendish altercation stole all the focus of the commissaires.

Except that these "fans" were also putting red thumbs when Nono got second a couple of days ago and was getting some cheerful comments. Fact. When Pinot wins, he gets as many red thumbs a s he gets the green. When Bardet wins, same thing. Deplorable. Those are not fans. Those are people who need a life. Pointing at Demare, for some Sagan fans in this forum is OK by me if they admitted that he did something wrong. But they blame Cav, then Demare, the French conspiracy, everyboody...but Sagan...

I'm just saying that if you look on the Démare swerve isolatedly (not taking in consideration what is happening to his right as that has nothing to do with him), it is definitely out of line and punishable (not DQ material but declassification).

Without a doubt. Nacer did well to avoid crashing. And since the only wrong thing Sagan did was to slowly change his line to the right, it speaks volumes that Démare's huge and more radical swung can be ignored by the race jury. I guess the race jury had to come up with the obviously flawed 'elbow reason' in order to be able to let Démare go free

 

[Galic Ho]

Re:

did he cause the first crash?

How can the rider squeezed in the middle have caused anything?

The rider on the right converged to his left, instantly causing a small deviation by Sagan.

The rider on the left, at exactly the same moment the rider on the right moved towards Sagan, also moved towards Peter and all were thereabouts equal or close enough in wheel disparity relative to each other.

This rider on the left, saw the two riders to his right, Sagan (in the middle) and the other rider and corrected...his correction caused him to slide out.

Happens all the time.

Plenty of people behind had miles of time to spot this...and still, still, ran into the man on the ground. Note the bloke right behind him, actually the first 2, completely missed this man. They didn't run into him.

What's your opinion on those who had far more time and distance to stop but just ran over the top of others?

If anyone should be called out, it's them...and it's still a common racing incident.

 

[Tonton]

Had Nacer hit the ground, Nono would have been sanctioned. No doubt. And that's a big difference between the two. And it used to be that way. as long as no one gets hurt, it's all fine. You play with fire, as long as no one gets hurt, it's OK. It was a game of chicken between Sagan and Cavendish, they both lost. Best rider in the World vs. best TdF sprinter ever, that's a lot of ego...no one was going to give in. That's why the "Demare did something worse" statement is non-sense. No one was hurt.

 

[PlanZ]

Re:

It strikes me that where there is this much room for debate - as the sheer number of pro-cyclists and ex-pro cyclists let alone every commentator / man and his dog - weighing in with their interpretation on both sides - it has to be considered rather harsh to declare 'the elbow' intentional. And if there is genuinely room for doubt - I think they should not have DQ'd.

Agreed. The point is we've all seen worse - ocassionally from Cav himself - with far milder repercussions.
The DQ is a baffling overreaction - although unlike many on here, I don't blame Cav.

 

[Galic Ho]

Re: Re:

Without a doubt. Nacer did well to avoid crashing. And since the only wrong thing Sagan did was to slowly change his line to the right, it speaks volumes that Démare's huge and more radical swung can be ignored by the race jury. I guess the race jury had to come up with the obviously flawed 'elbow reason' in order to be able to let Démare go free

This.

Better remember no chicken wings in the future. No chicken wings = no disqualification = totally legit.

 

[Galic Ho]

Re: Re:

It strikes me that where there is this much room for debate - as the sheer number of pro-cyclists and ex-pro cyclists let alone every commentator / man and his dog - weighing in with their interpretation on both sides - it has to be considered rather harsh to declare 'the elbow' intentional. And if there is genuinely room for doubt - I think they should not have DQ'd.

Agreed. The point is we've all seen worse - ocassionally from Cav himself - with far milder repercussions.
The DQ is a baffling overreaction - although unlike many on here, I don't blame Cav.

Not blaming Cav.

He just should know by now, a rider won't just let him through.

One can unintentionally provoke a racing reaction. A quick twitch based move...like an unforeseen elbow.

Cav didn't mean it. Neither did Sagan. They weren't trying to knock each other off. It's not like Renshaw in 2010 and his head butting. That was intended.

Way too harsh a penalty. It's a race incident. Warn the riders and give a fine. Move on.

 

[cineteq]

Is it still time for ASO to reinstate Sagan for stage 5?

- Cavendish pushed Sagan with his head to his left, while having no room to pass
- Inertia caused Cavendish to bounce and crash against the barrier
- Sagan lifted his right elbow in order to get his balance back as he was looking to follow Demare's wheel
- This was happening at 60km/h