Peter Sagan discussion thread.

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Re: Re:

Netserk said:
Red Rick said:
Netserk said:
Red Rick said:
This tour we have

15 riders going for GC
10 riders going for sprints
20 riders going for breakaways
40 domestiques
111 guys purely there to make Sagan lose.

100% pure pathetic racing by the whole breakaway. Especially Riblon who tried to attack from behind, then started making a scene when Sagan didn't let him ride.
Huh? Any cooperation with Sagan = Sagan wins. As it is now, the best in the break other than Sagan won. I think most in the break would like that to be the case again next time they are in a break with Sagan. It is in everyone but Sagan's interest for that to be the case. That is unless they think they can beat him fair and squire. Then, and only then, does it make sense to cooperate with him.

Which is more?

0 or 1?
0 or 1 what? You are acting like the scenario hasn't ever happened before, nor will ever happen again. It will. Sorry, but riders do actually sometimes think ahead.
So you think there's something positive to be gained from sitting there and not doing jack ***?
 
Jul 1, 2009
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To borrow from Jens Voigt, Sagan IS the "most feared rider in the world" at this point. I think people years from now will not remember who won Stage 16 in the 2015 Tour, but they will remember Sagan's entire Tour this year forever. Green Jersey now just a rubber side down competition.
 
Jul 20, 2010
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I don't think anybody (or any one of us) is blaming the other riders for Sagan not winning. We are just calling out the other riders for what they are: cowards. It is what it is.
 
Re:

Red Rick said:
What is their objective? To make someone lose or to win yourself? Not trying to win totally goes against the whole idea of competition. If you get in this kind of break and end up trying to make someone lose, you may as well quit the sport.

If not doing anything to try and win is gto, they are finding their 6th or 7th place wayyy to goddamn important
They are helping each other win. If Sagan never wins in breaks, it is more likely for them to win when they are in a break with him. It's not a about placement, it's about increasing the likelihood for them to win the next time they (or teammates) are in a break with him. They are in fact increasing their chance to win this way. They are just not so stupid that they think this is the only time in their career that they are fighting for the win.
 
Re: Re:

Red Rick said:
Netserk said:
Red Rick said:
Netserk said:
Red Rick said:
This tour we have

15 riders going for GC
10 riders going for sprints
20 riders going for breakaways
40 domestiques
111 guys purely there to make Sagan lose.

100% pure pathetic racing by the whole breakaway. Especially Riblon who tried to attack from behind, then started making a scene when Sagan didn't let him ride.
Huh? Any cooperation with Sagan = Sagan wins. As it is now, the best in the break other than Sagan won. I think most in the break would like that to be the case again next time they are in a break with Sagan. It is in everyone but Sagan's interest for that to be the case. That is unless they think they can beat him fair and squire. Then, and only then, does it make sense to cooperate with him.

Which is more?

0 or 1?
0 or 1 what? You are acting like the scenario hasn't ever happened before, nor will ever happen again. It will. Sorry, but riders do actually sometimes think ahead.
So you think there's something positive to be gained from sitting there and not doing jack ****?
YES!

Setting/following a precedence that will make it (much, much, much) more likely for non-Sagan riders to win in a break he is in.
 
Aug 31, 2012
7,550
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Re: Re:

Red Rick said:
SeriousSam said:
It's not very reasonable to blame riders of other teams trying to do what's best for them, rather than what's best for Sagan.
So wasting your own small chance at winning to make sure the guy with 50% chance of winning lose is in your best interest?
You make it seem like an individual rider's choice in the break boils down to
Don't work: 0% chance to win
Work: >0% chance to win

This is obviously not true, and the reason it's not true is exactly because there are other riders present and it's always much better to follow wheels than be the one to work. It's just not individually rational to work in many situations like that, even though everyone working equally would be collectively better for everyone. The tragedy of the commons applies to riders in a break chasing the guy who wrote away.
 
May 14, 2015
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Re: Re:

Netserk said:
Red Rick said:
What is their objective? To make someone lose or to win yourself? Not trying to win totally goes against the whole idea of competition. If you get in this kind of break and end up trying to make someone lose, you may as well quit the sport.

If not doing anything to try and win is gto, they are finding their 6th or 7th place wayyy to goddamn important
They are helping each other win. If Sagan never wins in breaks, it is more likely for them to win when they are in a break with him. It's not a about placement, it's about increasing the likelihood for them to win the next time they (or teammates) are in a break with him. They are in fact increasing their chance to win this way. They are just not so stupid that they think this is the only time in their career that they are fighting for the win.
No offense man, but that would be pathetic
 
Jul 20, 2010
118
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Re: Re:

SeriousSam said:
Red Rick said:
SeriousSam said:
It's not very reasonable to blame riders of other teams trying to do what's best for them, rather than what's best for Sagan.
So wasting your own small chance at winning to make sure the guy with 50% chance of winning lose is in your best interest?
You make it seem like an individual rider's choice in the break boils down to
Don't work: 0% chance to win
Work: >0% chance to win

This is obviously not true, and the reason it's not true is exactly because there are other riders present and it's always much better to follow wheels than be the one to work. It's just not individually rational to work in many situations like that, even though everyone working equally would be collectively better for everyone. The tragedy of the commons applies to riders in a break chasing the guy who wrote away.
Fail. Lol, game theory is nice and all and can used to simulate many scenarios, but at the end of the day it is exactly that. Theory. The real world actually operates as a non zero-sum game. It is far more complex and has rewards that are not immediately quantifiable. Let's not go there boy.
 
Re: Re:

SeriousSam said:
Red Rick said:
SeriousSam said:
It's not very reasonable to blame riders of other teams trying to do what's best for them, rather than what's best for Sagan.
So wasting your own small chance at winning to make sure the guy with 50% chance of winning lose is in your best interest?
You make it seem like an individual rider's choice in the break boils down to
Don't work: 0% chance to win
Work: >0% chance to win

This is obviously not true, and the reason it's not true is exactly because there are other riders present and it's always much better to follow wheels than be the one to work. It's just not individually rational to work in many situations like that, even though everyone working equally would be collectively better for everyone. The tragedy of the commons applies to riders in a break chasing the guy who wrote away.
What if I told you that you can cooperate a little bit without completely ruining your own chances. If a couple of guys do a little bit of work and keep Plaza closer, Sagan would also be more inclined to do more work, and if you keep Plaza close enough, you might be able to attack and close the gap, etc etc. Wayy more scenarios that way than when nobody does anything and everybody rolls to the line one minute back
 
Re: Re:

Miburo said:
Hugo Koblet said:
Hugo Koblet said:
So who is Sagan gonna lose to today? Trentin or Hagen?
Oh, Ruben Plaza it was.
Not sure why you make fun of the guy. He's making the races extremely exciting unlike many others in this tour. You're just beating a dead horse at this point
I'm not making fun of him. Well OK maybe a little bit. I'm a big fan of Sagan though and I would love to see him win a stage but how he constantly manages to throw away stages like these is starting to get both rediculous and funny.

ciranda said:
Sagan is great. That prediction was terrible anyway, no one weaker uphill than Trentin and Boasson.
Stop embarassing yourself :eek:
 
Aug 31, 2012
7,550
1
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Re: Re:

Red Rick said:
SeriousSam said:
Red Rick said:
SeriousSam said:
It's not very reasonable to blame riders of other teams trying to do what's best for them, rather than what's best for Sagan.
So wasting your own small chance at winning to make sure the guy with 50% chance of winning lose is in your best interest?
You make it seem like an individual rider's choice in the break boils down to
Don't work: 0% chance to win
Work: >0% chance to win

This is obviously not true, and the reason it's not true is exactly because there are other riders present and it's always much better to follow wheels than be the one to work. It's just not individually rational to work in many situations like that, even though everyone working equally would be collectively better for everyone. The tragedy of the commons applies to riders in a break chasing the guy who wrote away.
What if I told you that you can cooperate a little bit without completely ruining your own chances. If a couple of guys do a little bit of work and keep Plaza closer, Sagan would also be more inclined to do more work, and if you keep Plaza close enough, you might be able to attack and close the gap, etc etc. Wayy more scenarios that way than when nobody does anything and everybody rolls to the line one minute back
Sounds great, you guys do that, I'm gonna hang on at the back and my chance to win will be even higher.
 
I think the descent showed exactly why nobody in the group wanted to pull Sagan to the top of the climb. They needed to drop him to have any chance but he covered every move because he was probably the strongest climber in the second group. Even though they were riding into a headwind, Sagan needed to take responsibility and ride tempo up the climb if he wanted to win the stage.
 
Re: Re:

Netserk said:
Red Rick said:
What is their objective? To make someone lose or to win yourself? Not trying to win totally goes against the whole idea of competition. If you get in this kind of break and end up trying to make someone lose, you may as well quit the sport.

If not doing anything to try and win is gto, they are finding their 6th or 7th place wayyy to goddamn important
They are helping each other win. If Sagan never wins in breaks, it is more likely for them to win when they are in a break with him. It's not a about placement, it's about increasing the likelihood for them to win the next time they (or teammates) are in a break with him. They are in fact increasing their chance to win this way. They are just not so stupid that they think this is the only time in their career that they are fighting for the win.
You're proposing a scenario where the first guy to get a gap on Sagan always wins? Well, 60% of that group was never gonna gap Sagan on that climb. They didn't attack Sagan before the climb, so why the *** where they there?

Future ev means nothing when you don't take ev when its there.
 

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