Teams & Riders Peter Sagan discussion thread.

[SeriousSam]

Very disappointing. If he wants to break the record for second places, he has to make sure to get second in such situations. Still stuck at 15.

 

[saganftw]

Re:

Very disappointing. If he wants to break the record for second places, he has to make sure to get second in such situations. Still stuck at 15.

nice meme bro

 

[Krebs cycle]

I think Sagan has two major issues. 1) tactically he has missed the boat on several occasions in small lead groups and allowed a non sprinter to steal a win away from him because he waited for others to chase. Better to try and fail (eg: by dragging others to the line behind him) than not chasing at all. He needs to back himself that he can ride others off his wheel on rolling stages where the pure sprinters like Greipel have been distanced. Seems like there is a confidence thing or fear that he will lose by dragging someone else to the line.

Secondly, his positioning from about 600m to the start of the sprint on flat stages is not aggressive enough. He is nearly always in the perfect spot about 1km out (5th or 6th wheel), then he is in 4th wheel at 600m, by by the time the sprint starts he is back in 7th or 8th wheel because he allowed others to push him around and box him in too easily.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Reckon that 4m/year is a hefty price for a bunch of top 5s in big races.

Well, 4m/year is a hefty price full stop. I highly doubt he'd be on that on any other team. He took advantage of Tinkov being a complete moron who throws money around first, then asks questions later. We'd all do the same.

Anyway, I still think he'll eventually start winning stages again and potentially classics. As I said before, these recent results are clearly mental rather than him not being a good enough rider. He's too good, and his versatility gives him too many opportunities for him not to be successful again.

He'll start winning when they build a team to support him. In his breakthrough year he could hide and follow wheels well or launch a late attack to get victories in major races, now he's too well marked. He's constantly losing position at crucial times in sprints because he never has team-mates to help him defend position.

If he had Lotto's or Giant's normal lead out train, he would be unstoppable now he's got his top end speed back.

 

[ray j willings]

Tinkov , Resorting to plan b for Sagan win"

 

[saganftw]

Re:

I think Sagan has two major issues. 1) tactically he has missed the boat on several occasions in small lead groups and allowed a non sprinter to steal a win away from him because he waited for others to chase. Better to try and fail (eg: by dragging others to the line behind him) than not chasing at all. He needs to back himself that he can ride others off his wheel on rolling stages where the pure sprinters like Greipel have been distanced. Seems like there is a confidence thing or fear that he will lose by dragging someone else to the line.

Secondly, his positioning from about 600m to the start of the sprint on flat stages is not aggressive enough. He is nearly always in the perfect spot about 1km out (5th or 6th wheel), then he is in 4th wheel at 600m, by by the time the sprint starts he is back in 7th or 8th wheel because he allowed others to push him around and box him in too easily.

i agree with 1) but thats to be expected if you fight for points and wins...he could attack but realisticaly how often would that work? once in 5? getting second all the time is better for points than getting a win and a bunch of lower placings when the attacks dont work out

2)today he was in good position,but then degenkolb got from behind him and few hits were exchanged...should he hit him harder and risk a crash? - he was boxed between degenkolb and barrier...i honestly dont know how far could you go in that situation without causing a crash

 

[elfed68]

It seems his positioning at the start of the sprint is poor, so ends up having to make up a lot of ground.

His speed seems phenomenal, maybe the fastest of all the sprinters?

 

[Z3lvet]

It seems his positioning at the start of the sprint is poor, so ends up having to make up a lot of ground.

His speed seems phenomenal, maybe the fastest of all the sprinters?

2nd or 3rd fastest to be honest. But still a lot better than last year.

 

[Eclipse]

It seems his positioning at the start of the sprint is poor, so ends up having to make up a lot of ground.

His speed seems phenomenal, maybe the fastest of all the sprinters?

He just looks fastest because he's always sprinting from sheltered positions. If you put him in the wind for as long as the rest are the other real top sprinters will win most of the time.

I'd even suggest that trying to time a pass as late as possible to maximise slipstreaming is why he often seems to be coming from so far back

 

[ray j willings]

It seems his positioning at the start of the sprint is poor, so ends up having to make up a lot of ground.

His speed seems phenomenal, maybe the fastest of all the sprinters?

He just looks fastest because he's always sprinting from sheltered positions. If you put him in the wind for as long as the rest are the other real top sprinters will win most of the time.

I'd even suggest that trying to time a pass as late as possible to maximise slipstreaming is why he often seems to be coming from so far back

So when he's going faster and catching them up, he's actually going slower and its an illusion of slipstream

That make's sense

 

[Dog]

I'm starting to wonder why winning an intermediate sprint that no one else contests seriously, and consistently being beaten in a sprint finish deserves the reward of a jersey in Paris.

 

[ray j willings]

Re:

I'm starting to wonder why winning an intermediate sprint that no one else contests seriously, and consistently being beaten in a sprint finish deserves the reward of a jersey in Paris.

It should just be a pure sprinters jersey ,,,,most wins gets the jersey. No intermediate sprints, no points . just most wins gets it?

 

[Jancouver]

Re: Re:

I'm starting to wonder why winning an intermediate sprint that no one else contests seriously, and consistently being beaten in a sprint finish deserves the reward of a jersey in Paris.

It should just be a pure sprinters jersey ,,,,most wins gets the jersey. No intermediate sprints, no points . just most wins gets it?

I agree, if there is a tie at number of stage wins, then second, third etc placing will come in place.

Obviously only flat stages would count otherwise you could end up with a mountain goat wearing green jersey

 

[Z3lvet]

Re: Re:

I'm starting to wonder why winning an intermediate sprint that no one else contests seriously, and consistently being beaten in a sprint finish deserves the reward of a jersey in Paris.

It should just be a pure sprinters jersey ,,,,most wins gets the jersey. No intermediate sprints, no points . just most wins gets it?

I agree, if there is a tie at number of stage wins, then second, third etc placing will come in place.

Obviously only flat stages would count otherwise you could end up with a mountain goat wearing green jersey

It might aswell be like that next year if Sagan wins it for the fourth time.

 

[sienna]

I think overall Sagan works much harder for the Green jersey than all the pure sprinters do. Today's stage was a pretty good example of this - he had to do his turns in the break to contest the intermediate sprint although he had a little help from Rogers. When the breakaway was caught he contested the sprint with no lead-out (as usual). It would be generally accepted that he doesn't have the out-and-out speed of the specialist sprinters but is very good at improvising and positioning himself for the sprint. To me he is the most exciting rider to join the peloton in recent years and I'd prefer him winning green than some robot sprinter who can only win with a lead-out train. I hope he can somehow pull off a stage win in Paris as well as finishing in the Green jersey.

 

[Rajna31]

So when he's going faster and catching them up, he's actually going slower and its an illusion of slipstream

That make's sense

No, that's not the point. He usually has the best speed in sprints, but that's only because he starts his sprint the latest and consequently has to do effort against the wind for the shortest time. Other sprinters, who start earlier, are a little bit slower, but maintain that speed without slipstream for a longer time.

If other sprinters (say Cav, Greipel) chose his tactics and started late, they would probably be faster than him. But, as numerous examples demonstrate, these tactics don't pay off, you can't start that late or you can't win.

But of course, it's not entirely his choice, you can't be at the front is you don't have a leadout train. So he basically has to stick to the wheel of other, faster sprinters, who can start at the time of their choosing, and he has to adapt to the situation. It's not easy.

 

[orangerider]

Re: Re:

I'm starting to wonder why winning an intermediate sprint that no one else contests seriously, and consistently being beaten in a sprint finish deserves the reward of a jersey in Paris.

It should just be a pure sprinters jersey ,,,,most wins gets the jersey. No intermediate sprints, no points . just most wins gets it?

I agree, if there is a tie at number of stage wins, then second, third etc placing will come in place.

Obviously only flat stages would count otherwise you could end up with a mountain goat wearing green jersey

It might aswell be like that next year if Sagan wins it for the fourth time.

True, they keep changing the rules to ensure Sagan doesn't get it.

Maybe next they'll just use a voting system for green jersey. The rider with most votes wins it, regardless of actual stage wins/placings, just the one getting voted-in by a close circle of election officials consisting of Tour organizers/marketing guys.

 

[jmdirt]

Keep the green points jersey, but add a competition for sprint finishes. The leader would wear brown bibs. Sagan could adjust his game slightly and win both though.

 

[ray j willings]

So when he's going faster and catching them up, he's actually going slower and its an illusion of slipstream

That make's sense

No, that's not the point. He usually has the best speed in sprints, but that's only because he starts his sprint the latest and consequently has to do effort against the wind for the shortest time. Other sprinters, who start earlier, are a little bit slower, but maintain that speed without slipstream for a longer time.

If other sprinters (say Cav, Greipel) chose his tactics and started late, they would probably be faster than him. But, as numerous examples demonstrate, these tactics don't pay off, you can't start that late or you can't win.

But of course, it's not entirely his choice, you can't be at the front is you don't have a leadout train. So he basically has to stick to the wheel of other, faster sprinters, who can start at the time of their choosing, and he has to adapt to the situation. It's not easy.

But in most of Sagans 2nd's if he had started just half a metre later he would have won.
He's def been the strongest /most consistent 2nd place sprinter ever

 

[ray j willings]

Re:

Keep the green points jersey, but add a competition for sprint finishes. The leader would wear brown bibs. Sagan could adjust his game slightly and win both though.

It's a UCI conspiracy Whatever stupid rule they "DR Evil UCI" chuck at Sagan, it will just fire him up more.
Give it another 2 years and they will ban him from the tour for just being PETER SAGAN.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Hopefully Gorilla will beat the crap out of Sagan in Paris and gain Green in the process.....

 

[T-Nielsen]

Its like when Cancellara just won prolog upon prolog and then suddenly... no more prolog.

 

[sienna]

So when he's going faster and catching them up, he's actually going slower and its an illusion of slipstream

That make's sense

No, that's not the point. He usually has the best speed in sprints, but that's only because he starts his sprint the latest and consequently has to do effort against the wind for the shortest time. Other sprinters, who start earlier, are a little bit slower, but maintain that speed without slipstream for a longer time.

If other sprinters (say Cav, Greipel) chose his tactics and started late, they would probably be faster than him. But, as numerous examples demonstrate, these tactics don't pay off, you can't start that late or you can't win.

But of course, it's not entirely his choice, you can't be at the front is you don't have a leadout train. So he basically has to stick to the wheel of other, faster sprinters, who can start at the time of their choosing, and he has to adapt to the situation. It's not easy.

How is he different from Robbie McEwan then, apart from being a more all-round cyclist and not having the out-and-out explosive speed? Most of McEwan's wins were without a lead-out train where he had to improvise.

 

[sienna]

Re:

Hopefully Gorilla will beat the crap out of Sagan in Paris and gain Green in the process…..

The stage win in Paris is there for Cavendish - if he's not eliminated in the Alps.

 

[barefoot cyclist]

And the winner of The Green Jersey Competition is