Teams & Riders Peter Sagan discussion thread.

[El Pistolero]

Really insane... In terms of pure talent and versatility, only Gilbert, Boasson-Hagen and Kwiatowski are close to him...

I would definitely put Valverde before Gilbert and Boasson Hagen in that department. Actually, I don't see Gilbert as being anywhere near Sagan, Kwiatkowski and Valverde in terms of versatility. Greg may even be more versatile than him. And Moscon is also knocking on the door to enter such discussions.

How is Valverde versatile? He wins the same boring races every year.

Uphill sprint race #1
Uphill sprint race #2
Uphill sprint race #3

Etc.

He has never been on the podium in Milan-San Remo, never contested the Ronde van Vlaanderen or Paris-Roubaix, never came close to winning the Giro d'Italia (severely lacks in climbing when they hit high altitudes) or the Tour de France, never won the Giro di Lombardia or the World Championships either. And he also doesn't have a single Olympic medal.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Sagan might be able to match Valverdes versatility, but he has some way to go still imo.
Needs results in the Ardennes races to bridge the gap methinks.

 

[Netserk]

http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=21925

 

[deValtos]

Kwiat beats both as the most versatile rider though, not that it is an important title anyways.

 

[contador_attacks]

Really insane... In terms of pure talent and versatility, only Gilbert, Boasson-Hagen and Kwiatowski are close to him...

I would definitely put Valverde before Gilbert and Boasson Hagen in that department. Actually, I don't see Gilbert as being anywhere near Sagan, Kwiatkowski and Valverde in terms of versatility. Greg may even be more versatile than him. And Moscon is also knocking on the door to enter such discussions.

Greg is another good example - but he is not Gilbert-material.
Look at Gilbert's palmarés. Imagine If he manages to win Milano-Sanremo and Paris-Roubaix - and we all know he has the legs to do so....

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Really insane... In terms of pure talent and versatility, only Gilbert, Boasson-Hagen and Kwiatowski are close to him...

I would definitely put Valverde before Gilbert and Boasson Hagen in that department. Actually, I don't see Gilbert as being anywhere near Sagan, Kwiatkowski and Valverde in terms of versatility. Greg may even be more versatile than him. And Moscon is also knocking on the door to enter such discussions.

Greg is another good example - but he is not Gilbert-material.
Look at Gilbert's palmarés. Imagine If he manages to win Milano-Sanremo and Paris-Roubaix - and we all know he has the legs to do so....

Gilbert missed a few opportunities in his "bad" years at BMC to expand his palmares sadly, for instance the 2014 Paris Nice would have been very winnable for an in form Phil.

 

[Blanco]

Re:

[quote="Netserk"]Sagan is more versatile than Piti. I'll give Kawasaki the nod as most versatile though.[/quote]

It's not even close. Sagan is contender in classics, and classics oriented stage races, and he's a contender in sprints, that's all. Valverde is contender in every damn race he starts that is not pan-flat. Agree on Kwiat though, he just need more consistency.

 

[Netserk]

Which non-mountainous races that Sagan races, does he not contend in?

And Sagan is better on climbs than Valverde is on the flat.

 

[tobydawq]

Re: Re:

[quote="Netserk"]Sagan is more versatile than Piti. I'll give Kawasaki the nod as most versatile though.

It's not even close. Sagan is contender in classics, and classics oriented stage races, and he's a contender in sprints, that's all. Valverde is contender in every damn race he starts that is not pan-flat. Agree on Kwiat though, he just need more consistency.[/quote]

No, apparently he only wins the same boring uphill sprints each year. So clearly a one-trick pony as per Pisti-logic.

 

[Red Rick]

It's obviously a fact that Sagan is more versatile than Valverde.

Why?

Because I like Sagan more.

 

[Netserk]

I'd like to see Valverde do as well in a cobbled race as Sagan has done in FW. Heck, I think it's quite obvious that Sagan would do better in Liege than Valverde would in Sanremo.

 

[ihosama]

Piti is the most versatile among climbers.
Sagan is the most versatile among the non-climbers.

There you go.


Sagan can get closer to Piti in climbing and long term efforts, if he wanted. But it would cost him top speed and would not be reversible, so not really worth it.

Kwiato is the most versatile among them all. That is why he is pretty much the MVD for any train but also why he cannot compete with Piti on the climbs or with Sagan in the fair fight sprints.

 

[Blanco]

Re:

I'd like to see Valverde do as well in a cobbled race as Sagan has done in FW. Heck, I think it's quite obvious that Sagan would do better in Liege than Valverde would in Sanremo.

Quite obvious how? If Valverde was in San Remo this year, he could've contested for the win maybe. You saw the type of riders who followed Sagan, they were his compatriots from the Ardennes which usually ends behind him.

 

[Keram]

For the record Binck Bank point jersey was Sagan´s 31th point jersey win. I know it is meaningles competition besides Grand Tours but still it is quite impressive stat imo. I would like to see some ranking in this but I doubt something like that exists.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re:

It's obviously a fact that Sagan is more versatile than Valverde.

Why?

Because I like Sagan more.

Stop stealing Red Rick's password Netserk

For the record Binck Bank point jersey was Sagan´s 31th point jersey win. I know it is meaningles competition besides Grand Tours but still it is quite impressive stat imo. I would like to see some ranking in this but I doubt something like that exists.

Nobody would get anywhere near Jalabert and Kelly anyway

 

[tobydawq]

Re: Re:

It's obviously a fact that Sagan is more versatile than Valverde.

Why?

Because I like Sagan more.

Stop stealing Red Rick's password Netserk

For the record Binck Bank point jersey was Sagan´s 31th point jersey win. I know it is meaningles competition besides Grand Tours but still it is quite impressive stat imo. I would like to see some ranking in this but I doubt something like that exists.

Nobody would get anywhere near Jalabert and Kelly anyway

Are you sure about that? Sagan has so far finished 45 stage races that included a points jersey based partly on stage finishes. So he has won the points jersey in more than two thirds of all stage races throughout his career.

That's difficult to imagine being done much better but of course Kelly and Jalabert may have ridden more races back then, I don't know.

But I agree, it doesn't matter that much.

 

[Kokoso]

Guy seems pretty insecure about himself. I guess that's truth with lot of proffesional athletes though. But Sagan seems as being one of the pinnacle among them.

 

[glassmoon]

He's mega good/strong but... he just whines too much. I get the frustration when no one's willing to work with him but that constant whining - like every stage he doesn't win...

 

[Leinster]

Re: Re:

Sagan is more versatile than Piti. I'll give Kawasaki the nod as most versatile though.

Considering Valverde is just so good at everything between 5 sec to 1 hours efforts, especially if you look at w/kg, I definitely do not think he is. As I said, Sagan lacks the ability to sustian the same amount of watts for a longer period of time which is a huge deal. Climbs and time trials very mediocre considering his talent.

I don't think Sagan lacks the ability to do those things. I think he's happy being a classics/points jersey specialist. I think he has the ability to win any race on the calendar, up to and including Grand Tours, if he wants to focus on them.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re: Re:

Sagan is more versatile than Piti. I'll give Kawasaki the nod as most versatile though.

Considering Valverde is just so good at everything between 5 sec to 1 hours efforts, especially if you look at w/kg, I definitely do not think he is. As I said, Sagan lacks the ability to sustian the same amount of watts for a longer period of time which is a huge deal. Climbs and time trials very mediocre considering his talent.

I don't think Sagan lacks the ability to do those things. I think he's happy being a classics/points jersey specialist. I think he has the ability to win any race on the calendar, up to and including Grand Tours, if he wants to focus on them.

That might be the funniest thing I've read around here since the guy who insisted nobody got physically worse as they got older, they just "lost motivation"

I try to stay away from the individual rider topics because of the amounts of delusion in almost every one of them, but this...

Reminds me of about 10 years ago when a lot of Boonen fans insisted he could totally win a GT he just didn't want to lose the weight.


Alright, let's try and give a serious answer even if it will be pointless because religious beliefs can't be changed. Ahem.

Patxi Vila is Sagan's coach. Vila specifically says Sagan's worse 2014 and 2015 seasons were because he focused on his weaknesses, long threshold efforts like mountains and time trials. He changed back last year hence the better performances. Guess what, he wasn't anywhere near winning a Grand Tour in 2014 or 2015.

I realize this post is condescending. I'm sorry. I am.
I can only say in my defense that the constant mentality of "he could win every race because he's that awesome he just doesn't want to" of certain riders' fanbases (Sagan is one such rider but by no means the only one) does my head in.

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

Sagan is more versatile than Piti. I'll give Kawasaki the nod as most versatile though.

Considering Valverde is just so good at everything between 5 sec to 1 hours efforts, especially if you look at w/kg, I definitely do not think he is. As I said, Sagan lacks the ability to sustian the same amount of watts for a longer period of time which is a huge deal. Climbs and time trials very mediocre considering his talent.

I don't think Sagan lacks the ability to do those things. I think he's happy being a classics/points jersey specialist. I think he has the ability to win any race on the calendar, up to and including Grand Tours, if he wants to focus on them.

Think a little better.. , cause he's not going to win GT in a million years! Heck he's not even going to finish in top 10 ever!

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

Sagan is more versatile than Piti. I'll give Kawasaki the nod as most versatile though.

Considering Valverde is just so good at everything between 5 sec to 1 hours efforts, especially if you look at w/kg, I definitely do not think he is. As I said, Sagan lacks the ability to sustian the same amount of watts for a longer period of time which is a huge deal. Climbs and time trials very mediocre considering his talent.

I don't think Sagan lacks the ability to do those things. I think he's happy being a classics/points jersey specialist. I think he has the ability to win any race on the calendar, up to and including Grand Tours, if he wants to focus on them.

That might be the funniest thing I've read around here since the guy who insisted nobody got physically worse as they got older, they just "lost motivation"

I try to stay away from the individual rider topics because of the amounts of delusion in almost every one of them, but this...

Reminds me of about 10 years ago when a lot of Boonen fans insisted he could totally win a GT he just didn't want to lose the weight.


Alright, let's try and give a serious answer even if it will be pointless because religious beliefs can't be changed. Ahem.

Patxi Vila is Sagan's coach. Vila specifically says Sagan's worse 2014 and 2015 seasons were because he focused on his weaknesses, long threshold efforts like mountains and time trials. He changed back last year hence the better performances. Guess what, he wasn't anywhere near winning a Grand Tour in 2014 or 2015.

I realize this post is condescending. I'm sorry. I am.
I can only say in my defense that the constant mentality of "he could win every race because he's that awesome he just doesn't want to" of certain riders' fanbases (Sagan is one such rider but by no means the only one) does my head in.

There was similar hype for Cancellara 2008-2010, and also for Gilbert in 2011. Didn't saw any of them near the top of GT podium, I guess they weren't interested :lol:

 

[tobydawq]

100 victories in seven and a half years. Fantastic.

 

[Puccini]

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[Puccini]

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