Teams & Riders Peter Sagan discussion thread.

[Gigs_98]

Re:

Not everything has to be measured in terms of big wins. If you have seen him race, you would know that he is probably the best rider of this century.

Still at the end of the day wins rule. And tbh I don't think his big win record (monument/WC RR/Olympics) is that bad with 5 big wins so far in his career. As a comparison, cancellara had 7, boonen and bettini 8 I think. I still think he is likely to at least equalize those numbers which would put him on the same step as the best one day racers of this millenium so far. It's just that outside of the WC it feels like he has never maximized his chances of winning. It's frankly unbelievable a rider with his skillset still hasn't won MSR and that he messes up by doing the same mistakes every single edition.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

Not everything has to be measured in terms of big wins. If you have seen him race, you would know that he is probably the best rider of this century.

Still at the end of the day wins rule. And tbh I don't think his big win record (monument/WC RR/Olympics) is that bad with 5 big wins so far in his career. As a comparison, cancellara had 7, boonen and bettini 8 I think. I still think he is likely to at least equalize those numbers which would put him on the same step as the best one day racers of this millenium so far. It's just that outside of the WC it feels like he has never maximized his chances of winning. It's frankly unbelievable a rider with his skillset still hasn't won MSR and that he messes up by doing the same mistakes every single edition.

Is it his fault that Liquigas decided to bet on Nibali beating Gerrans and Cancellara in a sprint?

2013 and 2017 I agree were tactical errors, but that's it I believe.

I think Sagan is just less suited to cobbled classics than people think. He's not like Boonen or Cancellara. They naturally excelled at the cobbles, Sagan isn't as fatigue resistant and has to compensate with that huge anaerobic engine of his. On the cobbled monuments he's just one of many contenders.

In a similar way, Worlds Road Races are tailor made for him because they usually don't open up till the last lap and if they only race one lap hard there's no chance in hell they drop him before a sprint.

 

[Salvarani]

There has also been a lot more contenders for the classics, than in the Boonen and Cancellara years.
You cant really compare different eras like that.

 

[tobydawq]

Re: Re:

Not everything has to be measured in terms of big wins. If you have seen him race, you would know that he is probably the best rider of this century.

Still at the end of the day wins rule. And tbh I don't think his big win record (monument/WC RR/Olympics) is that bad with 5 big wins so far in his career. As a comparison, cancellara had 7, boonen and bettini 8 I think. I still think he is likely to at least equalize those numbers which would put him on the same step as the best one day racers of this millenium so far. It's just that outside of the WC it feels like he has never maximized his chances of winning. It's frankly unbelievable a rider with his skillset still hasn't won MSR and that he messes up by doing the same mistakes every single edition.

Is it his fault that Liquigas decided to bet on Nibali beating Gerrans and Cancellara in a sprint?

2013 and 2017 I agree were tactical errors, but that's it I believe.

I think Sagan is just less suited to cobbled classics than people think. He's not like Boonen or Cancellara. They naturally excelled at the cobbles, Sagan isn't as fatigue resistant and has to compensate with that huge anaerobic engine of his. On the cobbled monuments he's just one of many contenders.

In a similar way, Worlds Road Races are tailor made for him because they usually don't open up till the last lap and if they only race one lap hard there's no chance in hell they drop him before a sprint.

Maybe. I can't help but think that the way he sprinted past Nibali in the finish in Chieti in Tirreno the previous week, robbing him of bonus seconds, put him in a bit of a bad standing.

That doesn't make it less infuriating, though.

 

[Bolder]

Re:

Not everything has to be measured in terms of big wins. If you have seen him race, you would know that he is probably the best rider of this century.

That's a big claim. I'd agree that Sagan is probably the strongest rider we've seen since Cancellara, and his dual role as roleur/sprinter is close to unprecedented. (although Kristoff...)

However, his rivals have learned how to use that strength against him. Even Cancellara, if he raced now, wouldn't be able to just ride away from everybody -- at least, not as often.

If Sagan's lack of big results this year isn't due to lingering effect of illness, he'll either have to revise his training/racing plan, or rethink some tactics. However, I don't think he needs to gain much -- as hasn't been pointed out enough, even his "bottom" means that he'll most likely be in the final selection of just about any one-day race.

 

[tobydawq]

Re: Re:

Not everything has to be measured in terms of big wins. If you have seen him race, you would know that he is probably the best rider of this century.

That's a big claim. I'd agree that Sagan is probably the strongest rider we've seen since Cancellara, and his dual role as roleur/sprinter is close to unprecedented. (although Kristoff...)

However, his rivals have learned how to use that strength against him. Even Cancellara, if he raced now, wouldn't be able to just ride away from everybody -- at least, not as often.

If Sagan's lack of big results this year isn't due to lingering effect of illness, he'll either have to revise his training/racing plan, or rethink some tactics. However, I don't think he needs to gain much -- as hasn't been pointed out enough, even his "bottom" means that he'll most likely be in the final selection of just about any one-day race.

What do you mean with Kristoff?

Yes, he can go the distance but he can't force selections, his only weapon is his sprint (apart from one Flanders but I don't see a similar performance on the horizon).

Sagan is Mr Consistency, he is always the reference point of each race he enters, he can climb on his good days (even in the Tour last year, he was among the last 25 riders in the short stage to Col de Portet before he crashed, and he almost matched Alaphilippe in Mende), he is the punchiest of the punchy, he is good on the cobbles, he is fast, he is a monster in the crosswinds, he rides with panache, he always does more than his share of the work, his technique is probably the best in the peloton, he descends like a madman and he never ever takes a day off unless it's a time trial or there are mountains on the programme.

And he has been doing this for nine years now.

 

[Salvarani]

Re: Re:

Not everything has to be measured in terms of big wins. If you have seen him race, you would know that he is probably the best rider of this century.

That's a big claim. I'd agree that Sagan is probably the strongest rider we've seen since Cancellara, and his dual role as roleur/sprinter is close to unprecedented. (although Kristoff...)

However, his rivals have learned how to use that strength against him. Even Cancellara, if he raced now, wouldn't be able to just ride away from everybody -- at least, not as often.

If Sagan's lack of big results this year isn't due to lingering effect of illness, he'll either have to revise his training/racing plan, or rethink some tactics. However, I don't think he needs to gain much -- as hasn't been pointed out enough, even his "bottom" means that he'll most likely be in the final selection of just about any one-day race.

What do you mean with Kristoff?

Yes, he can go the distance but he can't force selections, his only weapon is his sprint (apart from one Flanders but I don't see a similar performance on the horizon).

Sagan is Mr Consistency, he is always the reference point of each race he enters, he can climb on his good days (even in the Tour last year, he was among the last 25 riders in the short stage to Col de Portet before he crashed, and he almost matched Alaphilippe in Mende), he is the punchiest of the punchy, he is good on the cobbles, he is fast, he is a monster in the crosswinds, he rides with panache, he always does more than his share of the work, his technique is probably the best in the peloton, he descends like a madman and he never ever takes a day off unless it's a time trial or there are mountains on the programme.

And he has been doing this for nine years now.

Great post.

 

[Blanco]

Re:

Not everything has to be measured in terms of big wins. If you have seen him race, you would know that he is probably the best rider of this century.

I wouldn't say the best, but one of them certainly.
Probably the best rider of the current decade though...

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

Not everything has to be measured in terms of big wins. If you have seen him race, you would know that he is probably the best rider of this century.

I wouldn't say the best, but one of them certainly.
Probably the best rider of the current decade though...

Not close to Nibali and Froome imo

 

[tobydawq]

Re: Re:

Not everything has to be measured in terms of big wins. If you have seen him race, you would know that he is probably the best rider of this century.

I wouldn't say the best, but one of them certainly.
Probably the best rider of the current decade though...

Not close to Nibali and Froome imo

If it's a discussion of palmarès, Nibali may beat him. If it's a discussion of quality of rider, Nibali doesn't come close.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

Not everything has to be measured in terms of big wins. If you have seen him race, you would know that he is probably the best rider of this century.

I wouldn't say the best, but one of them certainly.
Probably the best rider of the current decade though...

Not close to Nibali and Froome imo

If it's a discussion of palmarès, Nibali may beat him. If it's a discussion of quality of rider, Nibali doesn't come close.

Speaking in absolute terms about a wholly undefined variable and acting also it's not even close.

Ok.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

Not everything has to be measured in terms of big wins. If you have seen him race, you would know that he is probably the best rider of this century.

I wouldn't say the best, but one of them certainly.
Probably the best rider of the current decade though...

Not close to Nibali and Froome imo

Nibali
4 GTs, 1 Tour, 2 Giro, 1 Vuelta (12 GT stages)
3 monuments
2 T-A (1 stage)

Froomey
6 GTs, 4 Tour, 1 Giro, 1 Vuelta (14 GT stages)
2 Romandie (3 stages), 3 Dauphine (including 6 stages in Dauphine)

Sagan
3 WCs
2 monuments (3 G-W, 2 Quebec)
11 stages in TdF (including 5 point jerseys or 6?)
4 Vuelta stages
16 stages in Suisse
7 stages in TA
16 stages in Cal (dont really matter tbh, but still, 16 is a lot and its WT now)

I realize I miss some results, but I just went on PCS results on the riders frontpage. I depends on how much you value the different races, how much you value versatility in results, how much you value being a consistent threat to win, in other words consistency (which these results 100% dont account for which is why, when doing it like this (and this is just my opinion), Nibali's career will look greater than it is considering he has only target a few races a year since 2014), how much you impact races etc. etc.

Edit: To be clear, I dont really know how I'd rank them, but I know Sagan for sure isn't close off like you make it out to be, largely due to his success in the WC and to some extent the Tour (altho he hasnt won nearly as much as he should in my opinion. I think its very close between those riders and I wouldnt be opposed to Nibali, Froome or Sagan as the best.

As an aside, the reason Im not including Valverde is due to the fact that he basically had 2 years stripped off his career in his prime and he already began to produce great results in 2003. So strictly talking speaking this decade, its between the 3 riders above, but when talking about the rider of the century so far (2000-), Valverde has im my opinion the best argument of any current or retired cyclist.

 

[SKSemtex]

Re: Re:

Not everything has to be measured in terms of big wins. If you have seen him race, you would know that he is probably the best rider of this century.

I wouldn't say the best, but one of them certainly.
Probably the best rider of the current decade though...

Not close to Nibali and Froome imo

Nibali
4 GTs, 1 Tour, 2 Giro, 1 Vuelta (12 GT stages)
3 monuments
2 T-A (1 stage)

Froomey
6 GTs, 4 Tour, 1 Giro, 1 Vuelta (14 GT stages)
2 Romandie (3 stages), 3 Dauphine (including 6 stages in Dauphine)

Sagan
3 WCs
2 monuments (3 G-W, 2 Quebec)
11 stages in TdF (including 5 point jerseys or 6?)
4 Vuelta stages
16 stages in Suisse
7 stages in TA
16 stages in Cal (dont really matter tbh, but still, 16 is a lot and its WT now)

I realize I miss some results, but I just went on PCS results on the riders frontpage. I depends on how much you value the different races, how much you value versatility in results, how much you value being a consistent threat to win, in other words consistency (which these results 100% dont account for which is why, when doing it like this (and this is just my opinion), Nibali's career will look greater than it is considering he has only target a few races a year since 2014), how much you impact races etc. etc.

 

[Red Rick]

I dont believe the best rider of a 20 year period would be so because of races like Catalunya and Fleche Wallone, or because of placings or whatever

 

[tobydawq]

Re:

I dont believe the best rider of a 20 year period would be so because of races like Catalunya and Fleche Wallone, or because of placings or whatever

So you think that Oliver Zaugg and Thibaut Pinot are equal.

 

[Leinster]

On his team, Buchmann, Schachmann, Akkerman, Formolo and Bennett all have wins this year. Bora are doing well, just usually from the non-Sagan group (Paris-Nice, Catalunya, now Pais Vasco, but empty handed from Tirreno). Sagan himself has only a stage from Down Under.

I’m not sure what to make of this, it’s just an observation I had and wanted to share.

 

[333]

I firmly believe that Sagan will leave a bigger imprint on cycling than both Nibali and Froome and I also rate his palmares higher. He also has age on his side to continue adding to his legacy.

For him to be called rider of the century however, Sagan is going to have to accomplish a whole lot more if he's to overtake Contador and his 9 (or 7) GT wins and 68 professional victories. As of today, no one is close to matching Contador.

 

[Red Rick]

The team is doing fine largely, it's just the classics squad and more specifically Sagan who don't have it so far this year.

 

[myrideissteelerthanyours]

Re:

I firmly believe that Sagan will leave a bigger imprint on cycling than both Nibali and Froome and I also rate his palmares higher. He also has age on his side to continue adding to his legacy.

For him to be called rider of the century however, Sagan is going to have to accomplish a whole lot more if he's to overtake Contador and his 9 (or 7) GT wins and 68 professional victories. As of today, no one is close to matching Contador.

I ain't that impressed. Contador avoided the best competition, either banned from the Tour or hiding from it or crashing out due to the same factors every rider contends with.

edit: except of course when he rode for Bruyneel on the best ream and was for a little while dominant in the biggest GT

 

[Leinster]

Re:

The team is doing fine largely, it's just the classics squad and more specifically Sagan who don't have it so far this year.

Yeah, it just seems that when Sagan’s not winning, the others in the group aren’t ready/willing/able to step up and make their mark. The nearest being Oss getting so-near-but-so-far from bridging to the front group at MSR; if he makes that junction and can be a leadout man on Via Roma, it’s a 100% different finale. But Sagan seems isolated again, almost like the bad old Cannondale days.

The other guys are able to spread the wins around and get it done on all terrain, almost Quickstep-like.

 

[Ruudz0r]

Re: Re:

Not everything has to be measured in terms of big wins. If you have seen him race, you would know that he is probably the best rider of this century.

I wouldn't say the best, but one of them certainly.
Probably the best rider of the current decade though...

Not close to Nibali and Froome imo

Nibali
4 GTs, 1 Tour, 2 Giro, 1 Vuelta (12 GT stages)
3 monuments
2 T-A (1 stage)

Froomey
6 GTs, 4 Tour, 1 Giro, 1 Vuelta (14 GT stages)
2 Romandie (3 stages), 3 Dauphine (including 6 stages in Dauphine)

Sagan
3 WCs
2 monuments (3 G-W, 2 Quebec)
11 stages in TdF (including 5 point jerseys or 6?)
4 Vuelta stages
16 stages in Suisse
7 stages in TA
16 stages in Cal (dont really matter tbh, but still, 16 is a lot and its WT now)

I realize I miss some results, but I just went on PCS results on the riders frontpage. I depends on how much you value the different races, how much you value versatility in results, how much you value being a consistent threat to win, in other words consistency (which these results 100% dont account for which is why, when doing it like this (and this is just my opinion), Nibali's career will look greater than it is considering he has only target a few races a year since 2014), how much you impact races etc. etc.

Edit: To be clear, I dont really know how I'd rank them, but I know Sagan for sure isn't close off like you make it out to be, largely due to his success in the WC and to some extent the Tour (altho he hasnt won nearly as much as he should in my opinion. I think its very close between those riders and I wouldnt be opposed to Nibali, Froome or Sagan as the best.

As an aside, the reason Im not including Valverde is due to the fact that he basically had 2 years stripped off his career in his prime and he already began to produce great results in 2003. So strictly talking speaking this decade, its between the 3 riders above, but when talking about the rider of the century so far (2000-), Valverde has im my opinion the best argument of any current or retired cyclist.

Here is an overview of Sagan's results, its pretty insane how long the list is as it only includes wins and top 3s in WT races https://petersagannews.com/peter-sagan-results/.

 

[DonEsteban]

Looking at the Sagan's impact/legacy purely through the 'win' optics is missing so much...

Things like his TDF without a single win, but with breakaway heroics 5 days in a row ...
Bike jump over fallen Cancellara in Paris-Roubaix.
The 'sprinting stage' late breakaway with Froome at TDF.
The fact that he initiates so many decisive splits.
His unbelievable consistency...

Others may have better palmares, but he has bigger impact.

 

[Red Rick]

Very easy to ride cool when you're not in contention for GC and you can waste energy without consequence. It's not comparable.

It's funny to argue about riding style considering the vast majority of Sagan's wins are sprints.

 

[tobydawq]

Re:

Very easy to ride cool when you're not in contention for GC and you can waste energy without consequence. It's not comparable.

It's funny to argue about riding style considering the vast majority of Sagan's wins are sprints.

No, it's not funny.

 

[Blanco]

Re:

I dont believe the best rider of a 20 year period would be so because of races like Catalunya and Fleche Wallone, or because of placings or whatever

No, not because of those races.
But because of 120+ victories ( a dream for any other cyclist not named Greipel or Cavendish), because of his one-day races palmares (only Sagan and Gilbert comes close), because of his one-week stage races success (probably the best of the whole peloton), and because of his GT results (only Froome and Nibali stands above).
The man has done it all, that's why!

Edit: I talked only about active riders. Of non-active ones Bettini, Boonen, Cancellara and Contador are in the conversation...