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Teams & Riders Peter Sagan discussion thread.

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Hardly? He's already got Mount Ventoux (which, by the way, Peter could never have gotten), CE, MSR, Amstel Gold ,and you don't think Flanders, PR, Worlds at least once are on the way?
Look, big wins are Grand Tours, Worlds and Monuments, I was referring to them, and it is 5-1 for Sagan. Mont Ventoux although a big win, surely isn't comparable to any of those.
In one-day races score is 25-12 for Sagan, still a long shot for Wout...
In GT stages it's 18-9 for Sagan, that may be doable for Wout, but just maybe...
And no, I don't think Flanders, Roubaix and Worlds at least one are on the way, until they're really won, cause it's a bloody hard thing to win of those, let alone all three!
The way I see it, Wout Van Aert is certainly more versatile rider than Peter Sagan, but better rider, no way! For now...
 
Look, big wins are Grand Tours, Worlds and Monuments, I was referring to them, and it is 5-1 for Sagan. Mont Ventoux although a big win, surely isn't comparable to any of those.
In one-day races score is 25-12 for Sagan, still a long shot for Wout...
In GT stages it's 18-9 for Sagan, that may be doable for Wout, but just maybe...
And no, I don't think Flanders, Roubaix and Worlds at least one are on the way, until they're really won, cause it's a bloody hard thing to win of those, let alone all three!
The way I see it, Wout Van Aert is certainly more versatile rider than Peter Sagan, but better rider, no way! For now...

I'm a big fan of Sagan and not at all of Van Aert, but yes, Van Aert is absolutely a better rider than Sagan.
 
I personally think that sports are not a lot different than all other parts of life and that getting in is kind of autopilot and getting out is often complicated and ugly. Sagan did great things for bike racing and he was a focal point for many and you can't take that away from him. I had some favorites.
. Looking at Valverde, Cavendish, Philippe Gilbert there is a different methodology for everyone..and how and when you swing your leg off the bike is individual.. Lopez and Quintana are polar opposite.
Sagan has been in the crunch already and he is able to contest some of these early races in the sprint endings..I hope that if he doesn't win or podium he doesn't leave with a sour attitude..
 
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Of course, Van Aert patently disproves this, who without sacrificing anything, is a beast at TTing, actually won on a "long climb" and took the sprint on the Champs Ellisse. But we are dealing with Superman.
You are arguing in reverse. Sagan has won TTs but never specifically targeted them or wasted much energy on them. Wout does and is excellent. His win on the Champs was brilliant but not the same as winning the WC 3 years running. Why is it so important that Sagan be denigrated so WVA is superior using abstract comparisons?
 
Look, big wins are Grand Tours, Worlds and Monuments, I was referring to them, and it is 5-1 for Sagan. Mont Ventoux although a big win, surely isn't comparable to any of those.
In one-day races score is 25-12 for Sagan, still a long shot for Wout...
In GT stages it's 18-9 for Sagan, that may be doable for Wout, but just maybe...
And no, I don't think Flanders, Roubaix and Worlds at least one are on the way, until they're really won, cause it's a bloody hard thing to win of those, let alone all three!
The way I see it, Wout Van Aert is certainly more versatile rider than Peter Sagan, but better rider, no way! For now...
Just throwing poison into the equasion. Let's wait in 10 years.
 
You are arguing in reverse. Sagan has won TTs but never specifically targeted them or wasted much energy on them. Wout does and is excellent. His win on the Champs was brilliant but not the same as winning the WC 3 years running. Why is it so important that Sagan be denigrated so WVA is superior using abstract comparisons?
There are no abstract equasions, because winning atop Ventoux and the Champs Ellisse is extraterrestrial in the overall economy of the sport, period.
 
There are no abstract equasions, because winning atop Ventoux and the Champs Ellisse is extraterrestrial in the overall economy of the sport, period.
Period? I guess you choose to define the parameters (economy???) of this discussion....although WVA's great finish was exceptional for him; the GC guys were busy behind him racing for the GC win. He won the race he was in with escapees, not the GT cream. I could also posit this absurd equivocation too: a huge Italian, Eros Poli rode solo forever and won on Mt. Ventoux.
 
Period? I guess you choose to define the parameters (economy???) of this discussion....although WVA's great finish was exceptional for him; the GC guys were busy behind him racing for the GC win. He won the race he was in with escapees, not the GT cream. I could also posit this absurd equivocation too: a huge Italian, Eros Poli rode solo forever and won on Mt. Ventoux.
I'm laughing. Relax, "economy" is a metaphor. Eros Poli was given 20 minutes! It was the only ascent of the day. He was alone and the GC guys were taking the day off. By contrast Wout won on a double-climb day from a break with strong climbers, when the GC guys were riding hard behind and with Vingo dropping Pog on the second Ventoux ascent. And then you conveniently forget that the same Wout also definitively broke Pog riding for Vingo in the Pyrennes last year. So other than Poli, other than Sagan, this guy is made of another stuff. Wout then winning the sprint on the Champs Ellisse after Ventoux, considering this age of modern cycling, was Hinaultesque. And I'm not particularly moved by Van Aert, but chapeau.
 
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I'm laughing. Relax, "economy" is a metaphor. Eros Poli was given 20 minutes! It was the only ascent of the day. He was alone and the GC guys were taking the day off. By contrast Wout won on a double-climb day from a break with strong climbers, when the GC guys were riding hard behind and with Vingo dropping Pog on the second Ventoux ascent. And then you conveniently forget that the same Wout also definitively broke Pog riding for Vingo in the Pyrennes last year. So other than Poli, other than Sagan, this guy is made of another stuff. Wout then winning the sprint on the Champs Ellisse after Ventoux, considering this age of modern cycling, was Hinaultesque. And I'm not particularly moved by Van Aert, but chapeau.
Chapeau indeed! It was Hinaultesque, as you said. But that same Hinault won 10 Grand Tours, 5 Monuments and 1 Worlds. And, no, it's not just matter of time, when will big wins come for Wout, cause if that's that easy he would already had half a dozen of those. He will win some, I have no doubt, but it is much more realistic to say he will win 2-3 than let's say 5-6 big ones. He's already almost 29 and time waits for no man. Sagan at 30 was already done, Boonen won last monument at 32, not everyone is Valverde.
He's damn good, I agree, but he needs that big ones if he wants in Pantheon of greats. He's a one-day racer, and those races will ultimately define his career, as Boonen recently said about him.
 
Chapeau indeed! It was Hinaultesque, as you said. But that same Hinault won 10 Grand Tours, 5 Monuments and 1 Worlds. And, no, it's not just matter of time, when will big wins come for Wout, cause if that's that easy he would already had half a dozen of those. He will win some, I have no doubt, but it is much more realistic to say he will win 2-3 than let's say 5-6 big ones. He's already almost 29 and time waits for no man. Sagan at 30 was already done, Boonen won last monument at 32, not everyone is Valverde.
He's damn good, I agree, but he needs that big ones if he wants in Pantheon of greats. He's a one-day racer, and those races will ultimately define his career, as Boonen recently said about him.
Oh, I agree, and if he doesn't get the big wins, his career will not be entirely successful. And if not, then I'll give Sagan the trophy between them.
 
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Some of Wout's greatest rides were done with zero pressure and zero consequence for failure. Everyone points to double Ventoux/Champs etc, but there was literally nothing at stake except bragging rights.

Sagan won two of the three biggest prizes in cycling, P-R and the WC -- as the guy being everyone's No. 1 target, and did about as well as he could in many, many GTs.

And he did it with flair and panache, even if there were times when I wished he would have just stayed quiet. Just look at his victory celebration in Richmond in the clip above! He was so good for pro cycling compared with sour old Wout -- whom I deeply respect for his talent, but not yet for his palmares or impact on the sport.
 
Even if all you care about is "big wins" and choose to ignore everything else he still has a lot of them. Strade is a big win, so are GW, Amstel, MSR and his TDF stage wins + green jersey aren't exactly insignificant wins either. Sure, he could have won a lot more. He lost RVV against MVDP by a few centimeters for example. Getting covid before the RVV doesn't help either.

Based on palmares at this point he isn't a better rider than Sagan (yet) but I would say he is on track to doing so. Still has plenty of years left to fill in the gaps in his palmares assuming he doesn't suddenly become a washed up superstar like Sagan.
 
Even if all you care about is "big wins" and choose to ignore everything else he still has a lot of them
He has nothing comparable to Sagan


Strade is a big win,
OK, Van aert has Strade, and Sagan has Roubaix, which is a bigger win


so are GW
Sagan has won 3 GW and Van Aert only 1. Sagan better


Ok, Van Aert won Amstel, and Sagan won Ronde van Vlaanderen, which is bigger. And when Sagan won De Ronde, it was actually clear to see that he crossed the line first (he drop Cancellara like a stone in the Paterberg)


TDF stage wins
Sagan has more TDF stage wins


green jersey aren't exactly insignificant wins
Yes , Green Jersey is quite a significant win for a rider. Which is why Sagan 7 green jerseys put him in a different league to Van aert 1


Fair enough, this is Van aert biggest win and it was very good. But it does not compare to 3 consecutive World championships Road race wins. A historic and unique achievement.


He lost RVV against MVDP by a few centimeters for example
So you named 5 races, only 1 of which is at the top echelon of the sport (monument/World championships/ Grand tour GC) , and you already talking about races Van Aert lost.

By the way Van der Poel rode a poor final in that 2020 RVV. He led onto the paterberg, drove the pace consistently and led out the sprint, despite having a teammate behind when Van aert didn't. He gave Van aert an armchair ride to the finish and Van aert still lost.

You could mention how sagan barely lost 2013 Sanremo to ciolek, or sagan barely lost 2016 Sanremo when he was in prime position and crashed by gaviria mistake. Sagan gifted 2013 strade bianche to his teammate Moser. Sagan was catching Gilbert for 2017 ronde van Vlaanderen when a spectator left their clothes over the barrier.

So sagan has a lot of what ifs also. Winning matter the most



Based on palmares at this point he isn't a better rider than Sagan (yet) but I would say he is on track to doing so
OK. So let's go to arnau de lie/olaf kooij/magnus Sheffield threads. And discuss whether they are better than Sagan, because in 12 years they could be on track for doing so.

You admit that Sagan is better than Van aert yourself, but if the future goes as you hope Van aert might be comparable to him. Anything can happen in the future. Sagan could win something big this year.

We can talk also about Sagan wins in Giro and vuelta. Sagan Giro points jersey. Sagan wins at tirreno, Paris Nice. Sagan wins in quebec and Montreal. Sagan win California GC, sagan wins at Suisse, Sagan European championships etc
 

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