Peter Sagan vs. Mark Cavendish. Who has the best palmares.

[El Pistolero]

Re:

Sagan destroys the green jersey competition ("points classification", not "pure sprinters classification") even though the rules are increasingly biased against riders like him. How is that tarnished?

[T]he moment it gets a little windy [Cavendish] ends up dropped

He's very good in echelons.

Not as good as Sagan. Sometimes I say over the top things just for the sake of it. Do you think Cavendish would have followed the Sagan & Froome move during the echelon stage in the Tour? I know he had bike problems, but he would have waited in the peloton like all other sprinters hoping they'd get reeled back in. He simply doesn't have the power to make it into a move like that.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Cav is certainly the best sprinter in the echelons (I dont consider Sagan a sprinter). He won stages in TdF in 2009 and 2013 in echelons, was up there in 2015 as well. Certainly one of the best in the peloton in that kind of racing.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re:

Cav is certainly the best sprinter in the echelons (I dont consider Sagan a sprinter). He won stages in TdF in 2009 and 2013 in echelons, was up there in 2015 as well. Certainly one of the best in the peloton in that kind of racing.

Sagan beat Cav during the echelon stage in the Tour and at the World Championships in Doha this year.

And Boonen is also better at echelons than Cavendish. Just take a look at that one epic stage at the Tour of Qatar in 2012. If the WC was raced in those conditions Cavendish would have been dropped and the sprint would be between Boonen and Sagan.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

Cav is certainly the best sprinter in the echelons (I dont consider Sagan a sprinter). He won stages in TdF in 2009 and 2013 in echelons, was up there in 2015 as well. Certainly one of the best in the peloton in that kind of racing.

Sagan beat Cav during the echelon stage in the Tour and at the World Championships in Doha this year.

And Boonen is also better at echelons than Cavendish. Just take a look at that one epic stage at the Tour of Qatar in 2012. If the WC was raced in those conditions Cavendish would have been dropped and the sprint would be between Boonen and Sagan.

Im responding to your ludicrous statement that Cavendish is bad at racing in echelons which couldn't be further from the truth, not wether he is better than Sagan or Boonen (who I don't consider a sprinter either at this point).

I don't like Cavendish, but come on. Give him some credit.

 

[Red Rick]

There's basically 2 things that make up riding in echelons. Positioning and rouleur skills. Cav is one of the greatest in the first one, but I'd say that as echelon size goes down, the latter becomes more and more important.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

Cav is certainly the best sprinter in the echelons (I dont consider Sagan a sprinter). He won stages in TdF in 2009 and 2013 in echelons, was up there in 2015 as well. Certainly one of the best in the peloton in that kind of racing.

Sagan beat Cav during the echelon stage in the Tour and at the World Championships in Doha this year.

And Boonen is also better at echelons than Cavendish. Just take a look at that one epic stage at the Tour of Qatar in 2012. If the WC was raced in those conditions Cavendish would have been dropped and the sprint would be between Boonen and Sagan.

Im responding to your ludicrous statement that Cavendish is bad at racing in echelons which couldn't be further from the truth, not wether he is better than Sagan or Boonen (who I don't consider a sprinter either at this point).

I don't like Cavendish, but come on. Give him some credit.

Both Boonen and Sagan are sprinters. The fact that Sagan can do so much more doesn't change the fact that he's one of the fastest guys in the peloton.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

Cav is certainly the best sprinter in the echelons (I dont consider Sagan a sprinter). He won stages in TdF in 2009 and 2013 in echelons, was up there in 2015 as well. Certainly one of the best in the peloton in that kind of racing.

Sagan beat Cav during the echelon stage in the Tour and at the World Championships in Doha this year.

And Boonen is also better at echelons than Cavendish. Just take a look at that one epic stage at the Tour of Qatar in 2012. If the WC was raced in those conditions Cavendish would have been dropped and the sprint would be between Boonen and Sagan.

Im responding to your ludicrous statement that Cavendish is bad at racing in echelons which couldn't be further from the truth, not wether he is better than Sagan or Boonen (who I don't consider a sprinter either at this point).

I don't like Cavendish, but come on. Give him some credit.

Both Boonen and Sagan are sprinters. The fact that Sagan can do so much more doesn't change the fact that he's one of the fastest guys in the peloton.

Semantics.

You said Cav was bad in echelons. I called you out.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

Cav is certainly the best sprinter in the echelons (I dont consider Sagan a sprinter). He won stages in TdF in 2009 and 2013 in echelons, was up there in 2015 as well. Certainly one of the best in the peloton in that kind of racing.

Sagan beat Cav during the echelon stage in the Tour and at the World Championships in Doha this year.

And Boonen is also better at echelons than Cavendish. Just take a look at that one epic stage at the Tour of Qatar in 2012. If the WC was raced in those conditions Cavendish would have been dropped and the sprint would be between Boonen and Sagan.

Im responding to your ludicrous statement that Cavendish is bad at racing in echelons which couldn't be further from the truth, not wether he is better than Sagan or Boonen (who I don't consider a sprinter either at this point).

I don't like Cavendish, but come on. Give him some credit.

Both Boonen and Sagan are sprinters. The fact that Sagan can do so much more doesn't change the fact that he's one of the fastest guys in the peloton.

Semantics.

You said Cav was bad in echelons. I called you out.

Might want to read the first post on this page. You didn't call me out on anything.

Besides, he's good at positioning himself in the peloton, I'll give him that, but when it's really windy he lacks the power to hang on with the best guys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_5Q8sQumrc

When Cavendish does this I'll stop saying he's crap at echelons.

 

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

Might want to read the first post on this page. You didn't call me out on anything.

Besides, he's good at positioning himself in the peloton, I'll give him that, but when it's really windy he lacks the power to hang on with the best guys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_5Q8sQumrc

When Cavendish does this I'll stop saying he's crap at echelons.

So he won a selective stage on a windy day.

Cav has done that. Of course he isn't as good as Boonen in the wind, but he's still won on real windy days that were selective. He's not crap in echelons.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re:

There's basically 2 things that make up riding in echelons. Positioning and rouleur skills. Cav is one of the greatest in the first one, but I'd say that as echelon size goes down, the latter becomes more and more important.

Cav is no Boonen or Sagan in terms of ability as a rouleur, but he's pretty decent himself

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Peter Sagan vs. Mark Cavendish. Who has the best palmare

You are really the definition of a keyboard warrior. There is absolutely no reason debating you, sitting behind your screen proclaiming Cav is crap a echelons - a dude who has won 2 stages in the biggest race in crosswinds and recently just got 2nd in Qatar. :lol:

Incredible, you are incredible. As always super selective with no regards for objectivity.

 

[Bardamu]

Comparing a echelon stage in Tour of Qatar with one in the Tour de France is just ludicrous. Nobody gives a damn about winning a stage in Qatar, while the whole peleton shows up in TdF. Not saying Cav is a great rouleur, Boonen is better, but Boonen never showed anything exciting in the TdF apart from sprints. Even pure sprinter Cavendish won some exciting echelon stages.

 

[rghysens]

Re:

Comparing a echelon stage in Tour of Qatar with one in the Tour de France is just ludicrous. Nobody gives a damn about winning a stage in Qatar, while the whole peleton shows up in TdF. Not saying Cav is a great rouleur, Boonen is better, but Boonen never showed anything exciting in the TdF apart from sprints. Even pure sprinter Cavendish won some exciting echelon stages.

True, but if memory serves me well, there weren't that much chances (if any at all) for Boonen to show anything exciting in the Tour during the years he started it in good form (2004-2007). Can't remember echelons and there were certainly no cobbled stages, or anything resembling a "northern classic".

 

[Netserk]

There were echelons in 2007, but only Moreau lost time and a crash hindered Boonen from the sprint.

 

[yaco]

My wish is for Cavendish to focus on PR in the next two years - He's good enough on cobbles to make the final selection.

 

[Netserk]

Lol...

 

[SKSemtex]

Re:

My wish is for Cavendish to focus on PR in the next two years - He's good enough on cobbles to make the final selection.

based on what? Scheldeprijs?

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

Sagan destroys the green jersey competition ("points classification", not "pure sprinters classification") even though the rules are increasingly biased against riders like him. How is that tarnished?

[T]he moment it gets a little windy [Cavendish] ends up dropped

He's very good in echelons.

Not as good as Sagan. Sometimes I say over the top things just for the sake of it. Do you think Cavendish would have followed the Sagan & Froome move during the echelon stage in the Tour? I know he had bike problems, but he would have waited in the peloton like all other sprinters hoping they'd get reeled back in. He simply doesn't have the power to make it into a move like that.

If Froome could bridge to Sagan, there's a fairly decent chance Cav would have been able to as well. He's an absolute monster in crosswinds, and as we saw on the track, can put out some seriously impressive power over distances of 1km and 4km, suggesting he'd have a really good chance of bridging if he committed

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Peter Sagan vs. Mark Cavendish. Who has the best palmare

You are really the definition of a keyboard warrior. There is absolutely no reason debating you, sitting behind your screen proclaiming Cav is crap a echelons - a dude who has won 2 stages in the biggest race in crosswinds and recently just got 2nd in Qatar. :lol:

Incredible, you are incredible. As always super selective with no regards for objectivity.

There was still a large group in the stage he won in 2009. It was purely a case of positioning, not strength. Even Fumuyuki Beppu made it into the final selection. The stage he won in 2013 he could count on the most powerful team when it comes to echelons. Again, a case of positioning. Super strong rouleur Alberto Contador made it into the final selection.

I didn't say Cav is crap at echelons. I said he lacks strength for anything other than flat stages. He can position himself well in the peloton, partly because he doesn't care for the well-being of his colleagues and is willing to take many unnecessary risks to win.

And really, is two examples all you got? What about the other 150 or so wins?

Sagan is miles ahead in just about everything, deal with it.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

Sagan destroys the green jersey competition ("points classification", not "pure sprinters classification") even though the rules are increasingly biased against riders like him. How is that tarnished?

[T]he moment it gets a little windy [Cavendish] ends up dropped

He's very good in echelons.

Not as good as Sagan. Sometimes I say over the top things just for the sake of it. Do you think Cavendish would have followed the Sagan & Froome move during the echelon stage in the Tour? I know he had bike problems, but he would have waited in the peloton like all other sprinters hoping they'd get reeled back in. He simply doesn't have the power to make it into a move like that.

If Froome could bridge to Sagan, there's a fairly decent chance Cav would have been able to as well. He's an absolute monster in crosswinds, and as we saw on the track, can put out some seriously impressive power over distances of 1km and 4km, suggesting he'd have a really good chance of bridging if he committed

Froome is a much better cyclist than Cavendish... What did we see on the track? I saw him losing to a second rate rider like Viviani.

Cavendish is not an absolute monster in crosswinds, rarely has he been the engine in an echelon (if ever)...

 

[El Pistolero]

Re:

Comparing a echelon stage in Tour of Qatar with one in the Tour de France is just ludicrous. Nobody gives a damn about winning a stage in Qatar, while the whole peleton shows up in TdF. Not saying Cav is a great rouleur, Boonen is better, but Boonen never showed anything exciting in the TdF apart from sprints. Even pure sprinter Cavendish won some exciting echelon stages.

You're right, Qatar is far windier than France, so the Tour de France simply can't come near the Tour of Qatar as far as echelon racing is concerned. Take a look at the average km/h on that stage Boonen won in 2012.

 

[Red Rick]

Great
There is consensus that
Cav's positioning is great, and therefor he's very good in echelons
Boonen and Sagan are way better rouleurs
Boonen and Sagan are better at echelons than Cav.
The Tour is more prestigious than Qatar.
Qatar has more wind.

What more is there to argue?

 

[burning]

Re: Re:

Comparing a echelon stage in Tour of Qatar with one in the Tour de France is just ludicrous. Nobody gives a damn about winning a stage in Qatar, while the whole peleton shows up in TdF. Not saying Cav is a great rouleur, Boonen is better, but Boonen never showed anything exciting in the TdF apart from sprints. Even pure sprinter Cavendish won some exciting echelon stages.

You're right, Qatar is far windier than France, so the Tour de France simply can't come near the Tour of Qatar as far as echelon racing is concerned. Take a look at the average km/h on that stage Boonen won in 2012.

Really?

http://www.procyclingstats.com/race/Tour_of_Qatar_2012_Stage_4

http://www.procyclingstats.com/race/Tour_de_France_2013_Stage_13_Saint_Amand_Monrond

Note that the second stages comes after 2 weeks of racing and the strength of the peloton in TDF is obviously stronger than in Qatar

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

Comparing a echelon stage in Tour of Qatar with one in the Tour de France is just ludicrous. Nobody gives a damn about winning a stage in Qatar, while the whole peleton shows up in TdF. Not saying Cav is a great rouleur, Boonen is better, but Boonen never showed anything exciting in the TdF apart from sprints. Even pure sprinter Cavendish won some exciting echelon stages.

You're right, Qatar is far windier than France, so the Tour de France simply can't come near the Tour of Qatar as far as echelon racing is concerned. Take a look at the average km/h on that stage Boonen won in 2012.

Really?

http://www.procyclingstats.com/race/Tour_of_Qatar_2012_Stage_4

http://www.procyclingstats.com/race/Tour_de_France_2013_Stage_13_Saint_Amand_Monrond

Note that the second stages comes after 2 weeks of racing and the strength of the peloton in TDF is obviously stronger than in Qatar

What's your point? The average km/h on the Tour of Qatar stage was higher than the Tour stage you linked. As if that two weeks of racing has any effect on the strength of the peloton.

Qatar has a specialized field of classics specialists and sprinters, I wouldn't be so sure that the Tour field was stronger than in Qatar as far as echelon racing is concerned.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Peter Sagan vs. Mark Cavendish. Who has the best palmare

You are really the definition of a keyboard warrior. There is absolutely no reason debating you, sitting behind your screen proclaiming Cav is crap a echelons - a dude who has won 2 stages in the biggest race in crosswinds and recently just got 2nd in Qatar. :lol:

Incredible, you are incredible. As always super selective with no regards for objectivity.

There was still a large group in the stage he won in 2009. It was purely a case of positioning, not strength. Even Fumuyuki Beppu made it into the final selection. The stage he won in 2013 he could count on the most powerful team when it comes to echelons. Again, a case of positioning. Super strong rouleur Alberto Contador made it into the final selection.

I didn't say Cav is crap at echelons. I said he lacks strength for anything other than flat stages. He can position himself well in the peloton, partly because he doesn't care for the well-being of his colleagues and is willing to take many unnecessary risks to win.

And really, is two examples all you got? What about the other 150 or so wins?

Sagan is miles ahead in just about everything, deal with it.

Positioning is a huge part of echelons. Get over it. He obviously doesn't have motors like Boonen, Sagan similar riders - but no one has claimed he has. All we argue is Cavendish is good in echelons in response to you claiming he is dropped whenever it gets windy. Now you are just shifting goalposts. Of course Boonen and Sagan are better in crosswinds - thats not what we are arguing.

Yes, you literally said you'd stop saying he was crap at echelon until he did something similar to Boonen... in Tour of Qatar.

Cavendish also made the splits in 2015 in NL and in this WC. He didn't win the sprints in neither of those, but he once again managed to get in the split which is to be respected. He is obviously very good at that without necessarily having the capacity to split it himself.

Look, I don't wanna argue with you anymore. Cav is good at echelons. There is not much more to it. You piss me of to an extent that no one on a forum ever has.