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- Jul 25, 2012
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I don't agree with that. Kittel was the next big thing but he's already 28 and he's only won 9 TDF stages. Cav had 25 by that age (I think). Already we have talk of Gaviria, Groenewegen, Bennett and Ewan coming through and there are guys like Demare, Coquard, Bouhanni, Kristoff, Degenkolb and not to forget Sagan who are capable of springing a surprise every now and then. He currently has 8 more wins than Darrigade and is likely to catch Merckx and their records cover the days of split stages in the Tour, adding more opportunities for wins.
Cav's achievements at the TDF are incredible and it will take a serious talent, one which I don't think we have seen in the current crop of young riders, to even get close to that. Add to that the fact Cav could easily add a few more wins and I think whatever record he sets will stand for a long time.
El Pistolero said:
I don't agree with that. Kittel was the next big thing but he's already 28 and he's only won 9 TDF stages. Cav had 25 by that age (I think). Already we have talk of Gaviria, Groenewegen, Bennett and Ewan coming through and there are guys like Demare, Coquard, Bouhanni, Kristoff, Degenkolb and not to forget Sagan who are capable of springing a surprise every now and then. He currently has 8 more wins than Darrigade and is likely to catch Merckx and their records cover the days of split stages in the Tour, adding more opportunities for wins.
Cav's achievements at the TDF are incredible and it will take a serious talent, one which I don't think we have seen in the current crop of young riders, to even get close to that. Add to that the fact Cav could easily add a few more wins and I think whatever record he sets will stand for a long time.
- Aug 18, 2010
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This may all be true, and it may be terribly unfair that sprinters get so many chances to win races. It is obviously true that Sagan is much more versatile. It doesn't change the fact that Cavendish has won more races and won more important races and therefore, right at this moment, has a better palmares. He won't have for very much longer.
El Pistolero said:
This may all be true, and it may be terribly unfair that sprinters get so many chances to win races. It is obviously true that Sagan is much more versatile. It doesn't change the fact that Cavendish has won more races and won more important races and therefore, right at this moment, has a better palmares. He won't have for very much longer.
- Jul 16, 2010
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It's really not all that special, Cipo and Peta would have broken it, but they were excluded from the Tour many times. Petacchi even kicked Cav's ass in 2010, he was already an old man back then. Cav simply had piss poor competition for many years.
Mr.White said:
It's really not all that special, Cipo and Peta would have broken it, but they were excluded from the Tour many times. Petacchi even kicked Cav's ass in 2010, he was already an old man back then. Cav simply had piss poor competition for many years.
- Aug 18, 2010
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This is just ridiculous now. Petacchi for instance barely won a race of note until he was nearly 27. The only way he challenges that record is if he's allowed to ride his 2003 season every year for a decade.
El Pistolero said:
This is just ridiculous now. Petacchi for instance barely won a race of note until he was nearly 27. The only way he challenges that record is if he's allowed to ride his 2003 season every year for a decade.
- Jul 25, 2012
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If it wasn't that special there would be loads of people around the same mark, yet the only people anywhere near him are possibly the two greatest riders who ever lived. Bias is fine but if you're going to show that level of bias why even start the thread? Cav's TDF record is unparalleled, he is the greatest GT sprinter of all time, especially after this year.
Cav won 5 stages in 2010. Petacchi won 2. I guess it depends what their goals were but I wouldn't say that was an ass kicking.
Cav won 5 stages in 2010. Petacchi won 2. I guess it depends what their goals were but I wouldn't say that was an ass kicking.
- Jun 24, 2013
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Cipollini and Petacchi both have more GT stage wins than Cavendish. Their record in one-day races is very similar as all 3 have won San Remo once. Ale never won a WC but he did win Paris-Tours which stacks up well against Zolder and Copenhague.
Don't agree that Cav is best sprinter of all-time. Needs to win 10 more GT stages
Don't agree that Cav is best sprinter of all-time. Needs to win 10 more GT stages
- Jul 25, 2012
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- Jan 27, 2012
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I agree to some extent, but has it really always been the case that teams would show up to the Tour(s) built around a sprint train. My superficial impression is that this is something that may very well have come to pass with Cipollini himself. So we are really talking 20-25 years. That is still a lot, but it is not all time.
King Boonen said:
I agree to some extent, but has it really always been the case that teams would show up to the Tour(s) built around a sprint train. My superficial impression is that this is something that may very well have come to pass with Cipollini himself. So we are really talking 20-25 years. That is still a lot, but it is not all time.
- May 17, 2013
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Re: Peter Sagan vs. Mark Cavendish. Who has the best palmare
Interesting debate, actually. I can see both sides of the argument and don't pretend to hold the truth. When it's all said and done, Sagan will, by far have the best palmares, I think that we can agree on that. He's so young. But now?
If I ask myself which palmares I would want to have, I'd pick Sagan's. He has had (way) less success in July than Cav, but still has wins and several Green jerseys, The Ronde>MSR, IMO it is (like PR) a super-monument. One more RRWC, including the last one, ahead of Cavendish.
Sagan is so good that he can win two more rainbow jerseys, maybe more
, and a dozen monuments. And many GC stages. And one week stage races, a la Kelly. He's that good.
Interesting debate, actually. I can see both sides of the argument and don't pretend to hold the truth. When it's all said and done, Sagan will, by far have the best palmares, I think that we can agree on that. He's so young. But now?
If I ask myself which palmares I would want to have, I'd pick Sagan's. He has had (way) less success in July than Cav, but still has wins and several Green jerseys, The Ronde>MSR, IMO it is (like PR) a super-monument. One more RRWC, including the last one, ahead of Cavendish.
Sagan is so good that he can win two more rainbow jerseys, maybe more
, and a dozen monuments. And many GC stages. And one week stage races, a la Kelly. He's that good.
- Jul 16, 2010
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Petacchi won the green jersey. And he was already well in decline by then. Cav would have gotten his ass kicked against Cipo and Peta in their prime. 2010 showed us just that.
There was seriously no competition for Cav in 2008-2011. Greipel was on his own team and not allowed to race in the Tour, Boonen was sidelined multiple times because of his cocaine issues, Petacchi was sidelined, Robbie Mcewen was getting old and retired, Cipo was retired. And Cipo never gave a *** about the Tour because he couldn't even be bothered to finish it and ASO didn't invite him multiple times because of it. If Cipo cared he'd have broken Merckx's record. And yes I'm serious. I'm also serious when I say that the next top sprinter will come close to Cav's record or even break it. A sprinter can win 9 stages in a Tour these days, NINE!
From 2012-2016 Cav was a lot less dominant. Since Greipel left his team these are their results:
Cav; 15 Tour stages and 8 Giro stages
Greipel: 11 Tour stages and 4 Giro stages (he didn't ride the Giro or Vuelta quite a few times, a mistake imo).
Yes, Cav still holds the upper hand, but the difference isn't all that big. Especially when we consider that Cav said Greipel could only win "small shitty races".
King Boonen said:
Petacchi won the green jersey. And he was already well in decline by then. Cav would have gotten his ass kicked against Cipo and Peta in their prime. 2010 showed us just that.
There was seriously no competition for Cav in 2008-2011. Greipel was on his own team and not allowed to race in the Tour, Boonen was sidelined multiple times because of his cocaine issues, Petacchi was sidelined, Robbie Mcewen was getting old and retired, Cipo was retired. And Cipo never gave a *** about the Tour because he couldn't even be bothered to finish it and ASO didn't invite him multiple times because of it. If Cipo cared he'd have broken Merckx's record. And yes I'm serious. I'm also serious when I say that the next top sprinter will come close to Cav's record or even break it. A sprinter can win 9 stages in a Tour these days, NINE!
From 2012-2016 Cav was a lot less dominant. Since Greipel left his team these are their results:
Cav; 15 Tour stages and 8 Giro stages
Greipel: 11 Tour stages and 4 Giro stages (he didn't ride the Giro or Vuelta quite a few times, a mistake imo).
Yes, Cav still holds the upper hand, but the difference isn't all that big. Especially when we consider that Cav said Greipel could only win "small shitty races".
- Jul 25, 2012
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He won the points jersey. When it came to actual sprinting for stage wins Cav destroyed him. Petacchi won 6 stages at the Tour, that's it.
Cipo only has himself to blame for not winning more Tour stages. The evidence points to the fact he couldn't as he didn't even finish it. He had to resort to amassing stages in the second rate GTs (don't blame me, that's what they are). Random speculation is random speculation, the facts are he got nowhere near. in 2012 and 2013 Cav finished both the Giro and the Tour, something Cipo never did.
I would be very careful calling out the current number of stages sprinters can win. Go back through the Giros when Cipo was riding and count the flat stages, or look at when Petacchi won 9 stages (something you're railing against saying it shouldn't be possible). The opportunities for sprinters have always been there.
And in those years he crashed out once and didn't finish 2016. When it comes to GT sprinters Cav is the greatest of all time. Others are certainly close, but Cav has beaten everyone he's ever had to compete against and set a record that I doubt anyone will get close to for a long time. If it weren't for this year I'd say it was close with Cipo, but this year confirmed it.
I'm not surprised fans of Sagan also like Cipo. They are cut from the same arrogant, misogynistic, attention seeking cloth.
El Pistolero said:
He won the points jersey. When it came to actual sprinting for stage wins Cav destroyed him. Petacchi won 6 stages at the Tour, that's it.
Cipo only has himself to blame for not winning more Tour stages. The evidence points to the fact he couldn't as he didn't even finish it. He had to resort to amassing stages in the second rate GTs (don't blame me, that's what they are). Random speculation is random speculation, the facts are he got nowhere near. in 2012 and 2013 Cav finished both the Giro and the Tour, something Cipo never did.
I would be very careful calling out the current number of stages sprinters can win. Go back through the Giros when Cipo was riding and count the flat stages, or look at when Petacchi won 9 stages (something you're railing against saying it shouldn't be possible). The opportunities for sprinters have always been there.
And in those years he crashed out once and didn't finish 2016. When it comes to GT sprinters Cav is the greatest of all time. Others are certainly close, but Cav has beaten everyone he's ever had to compete against and set a record that I doubt anyone will get close to for a long time. If it weren't for this year I'd say it was close with Cipo, but this year confirmed it.
I'm not surprised fans of Sagan also like Cipo. They are cut from the same arrogant, misogynistic, attention seeking cloth.
- Mar 10, 2009
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Re:
The fact that he was a very high profile Italian sprinter racing for Italian sponsored teams with the Giro being a very important event in every season that he raced likely had some baring on his inability and lack of motivation for finishing the Tour. Most of those teams were built around allowing him to achieve his successes at the Giro and at other events that he could excel.
kingjr said:
The fact that he was a very high profile Italian sprinter racing for Italian sponsored teams with the Giro being a very important event in every season that he raced likely had some baring on his inability and lack of motivation for finishing the Tour. Most of those teams were built around allowing him to achieve his successes at the Giro and at other events that he could excel.
- Apr 30, 2011
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He [Cav] was of course very good, and would likely have dominated anyway, but he was fortunate to breakthrough while there was a changing of the guards (while he also had an extremely good team at his service, which cannot be stressed enough).
Regarding this very debate, it comes down to how much you value Tour (and Giro) stages vs. green and classics.
Well, I don't think it takes bias to state that his competition was poor in '08 - '10. Old Petacchi was the one who troubled him the most. McEwen and Boonen was past it sprinting wise. Bennati only really had the Giro '08 left at the very top. Hushovd was never the very best in the pan-flat sprints. Farrar was Farrarhrotha said:
He [Cav] was of course very good, and would likely have dominated anyway, but he was fortunate to breakthrough while there was a changing of the guards (while he also had an extremely good team at his service, which cannot be stressed enough).Regarding this very debate, it comes down to how much you value Tour (and Giro) stages vs. green and classics.
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