Phil and Paul

[therealtimshady]

I'm going to stick up for phil and Paul. Yes they have their faults but they are still the best out there ( and I hate lance by the way). + I only watch eurosport when I have to ( nothing against harmon and Kelly they are fine) but because of their constant dumping of coverage for "1st round tennis" which disgusts me.

+ for all those phil and Paul haters - simply change channels and don't hate on those who like the itv4 coverage

 

[Fergoose]

The ITV4 coverage is excellent, I liked their Vuelta effort last year too and preferred that commentary (though Phil is certainly accomplished in small doses). Like someone said above, it's great when they start at noon and you get the studio guys talking rather than the commentators. I think they should do a lot more of that then hand over to the proper commentators when the actions heats up (i.e. dip in and out of commentary if there isn't much going on).

Anyway, todays belter from Paul Sherwen - providing ammo for the Clinic crowd:

"Froome can crime with the best of them!"

 

[BigRingAbuse]

This thread has been hijacked by a serious discussion about commentary quality.

I thought we were talking about Paul "The big men are all firing their guns in salvos" Sherwen and Phil "51:59 that's under 52 minutes" Liggett.

We have to stop "Battling with our machines"

 

[Carols]

Phil and Paul talking like Liqui was riding for Sagan to win on Stage 8.

The producers behind it all want the constant dribble?

Actually Liqui was!

Nibali said:
"Initially, we were thinking that Peter Sagan might be able to hold on to the lead group and win, so we set a decent tempo for him," Nibali said. "We made the pace that suited us, we didn't want to force it too much as there's an important stage tomorrow."

 

[Warhawk]

This thread has been hijacked by a serious discussion about commentary quality.

I thought we were talking about Paul "The big men are all firing their guns in salvos" Sherwen and Phil "51:59 that's under 52 minutes" Liggett.

We have to stop "Battling with our machines"

Everybody's face is a "picture of pain."

FWIW, I do like their bunch sprint calls. And most of the mistakes they make are in identifying cyclists from bad camera angles. I don't think I could do much better (apart from the one time yesterday they identified Rein as Tejay because they forgot Tejay wasn't in the white jersey anymore).

 

[BigPhil3]

I wouldn't mind Paul, but he has such a stereotypical "announcer" voice. At least he seems like he cares. Phil is another story. That dude barely knows where he is. The worst thing over here in the states is that for the non-live races, they always repeat what the other says. It probably has something to do with commercials and editing, but it can be pretty annoying sometimes. I like Bob, mostly because he's a weird dude who I find very entertaining. But the man cannot pronounce Bosan Hagen or Europcar. C'mon son.

I really do like the Eurovision guys. Even though I can't always understand what Sean Kelly says, I appreciate his frankness, and a lot of the times it seems that they are just hanging out and talking about the race, not trying to actually put on a show. But I think that is a cultural difference between American and European sports broadcasting. Also, it's pretty cool to hear Sean Kelly, a legit bad ***, tell stories from back in the day.

What I have done for a few stages, depending on when I wake up, is watch the race on my HDTV, which is amazing, mute it and listen to the Euro cast. There is about a 3 second delay on the TV, but I live with it. As long as I don't switch back and forth between commentator teams I'm usually okay. I watched the first part of Paris Roubaix on the computer and then finished it up with P&P. That is a real good way to see how much worse P&P are from their European counterparts. It took me a while to recover from that mistake.

 

[ozerulz]

I used to be a p&p fan. The ridiculous crap that came out of their mouths was funny for a time but it now just boring. Kelly is much better.
P

 

[joe_papp]

I used to be a p&p fan. The ridiculous crap that came out of their mouths was funny for a time but it now just boring. Kelly is much better.
P

Not only boring, but 1) annoying (all the mistakes) and 2) pathetic, literally (especially Phil - due to all the mistakes).

I remember just yesterday getting so annoyed with Phil's misidentifying a Cofidis rider as American TJVG of BMC that I started talking back sarcastically to the TV. My cat looked at me as if I was crazy...

But seriously, the general lack of commentating ability, plus the repetitive nature and un-originality of the cliched and hackneyed phrases, plus the blatant mistakes and failures to react in a timely manner to what's actually happening on the screen have rendered Phil a pathetic old man in my eyes who needs to step away from the role of live play-by-play commentating. I realize now he never had any genuine talent, or if he did, it's long ago left him, and he's just embarrassing. I can't imagine that NBC execs/producers couldn't go back into the archive and dig-out a copy of Paris-Roubaix from 1994 from WCP (then FCV), spool it up and see for themselves how badly the quality of the P&p show has declined.

NBC has no one to blame but themselves for employing those jaboffs, but can't argue w/ P&P for accepting the work. Their shilling for Armstrong has made it very clear that they have no self-respect, so the idea that either one of them might recognize that it's time to step down and let someone younger and better take-over is laughable.

 

[ghostofjoy]

Their shilling for Armstrong has made it very clear that they have no self-respect, so the idea that either one of them might recognize that it's time to step down and let someone younger and better take-over is laughable.

and yet during the TT today, paul had a perfect (and frankly redundant, given how many times it's been said) opportunity to praise armstrong. how did it transpire?

paul - "look at wiggins, the way he's pedaling. his legs are churning those pedals at around approximately 90-100 pedal strokes per minute. that high cadence was developed and brought to the sport by a certain -"

(at this point i could feel the bile rising in the back of my throat, like some kind of anticipatory gag reflex. i knew whose name would be invoked...)

paul - "miguel indurain, who dominated the tour de france in the early 1990's."

my eyes bugged out and i had to choke back my bile. someone at nbc is making sure that they manage their message and keep their name as far away from armstrong's as possible.

 

[joe_papp]

and yet during the TT today, paul had a perfect (and frankly redundant, given how many times it's been said) opportunity to praise armstrong. how did it transpire?

paul - "look at wiggins, the way he's pedaling. his legs are churning those pedals at around approximately 90-100 pedal strokes per minute. that high cadence was developed and brought to the sport by a certain -"

(at this point i could feel the bile rising in the back of my throat, like some kind of anticipatory gag reflex. i knew whose name would be invoked...)

paul - "miguel indurain, who dominated the tour de france in the early 1990's."

my eyes bugged out and i had to choke back my bile. someone at nbc is making sure that they manage their message and keep their name as far away from armstrong's as possible.

wow! i guess they must have an exec producer shouting into their ear in real-time warning them not to bring up his name. either that or they've implanted electrified chips in their brains that zap them if they start thinking about mentioning LA ha.

btw: your anecdote was great. very well written/told. I'm still smiling. Cheers.

 

[180mmCrank]

I am neither a fan nor that offended by the dynamic duo but I had to laugh today when Phil was commenting on Leipheimer warming up on a stationary bike before the ITT

"...and we can see the importance of making sure you are fully warmed up before the start - look he's even wearing his ice jacket"



AND apologies if this has already been quoted above.

 

[blackcat]

I am neither a fan nor that offended by the dynamic duo but I had to laugh today when Phil was commenting on Leipheimer warming up on a stationary bike before the ITT

"...and we can see the importance of making sure you are fully warmed up before the start - look he's even wearing his ice jacket"



AND apologies if this has already been quoted above.

pasture
senility
sanitorium

 

[joe_papp]

I am neither a fan nor that offended by the dynamic duo but I had to laugh today when Phil was commenting on Leipheimer warming up on a stationary bike before the ITT

"...and we can see the importance of making sure you are fully warmed up before the start - look he's even wearing his ice jacket"



AND apologies if this has already been quoted above.

OMG are you serious? he said that?

someone should start a blog ASAP that documents all of the good Liggettisms (or whatever you'd call them) - much like they do over at PlanetF1 for Eddie Jordan, ex-F1 team owner and little leprechaun who now does commentary for the BBC!

http://planetf1.com/race-features/7883424/Winners-and-Losers-British-GP

" Quotable Quotes
Eddie Jordan talking about Jude Law who was a guest in the Lotus pits. Half way through his sentence Eddie suddenly decided to avoid any potential lawsuit... "Sherlock Holmes has rekindled his career...not that it has dwindled in any way."

Eddie Jordan: "The teams will be telling the drivers to avoid the stagnant water." (The standing water is fine, it's the fetid, smelly stagnant stuff which will have you off the track.)

We've had stagnant water instead of standing water in race coverage before, but the most utterly remarkable use of it came at the Bahrain GP in 2008 from ITV's pundit Mark Blundell as featured in The Best of Blundell 2008 Here's the extract for Bahrain...

Bahrain 2008
It's rare that Mark gets upstaged by Steve Rider, but following revelations about Max Mosley, Steve managed a (whip) cracking quote. In the wake of more revelations from Max Mosley's five-hour sex tape in the News of the World on Sunday it was obvious that Steve had read the S&M coverage on Pages, 1, 4, 5, 6 & 7: "The Ferraris will take some beating this afternoon," said Steve with a twinkle.

Blundell's race coverage was disappointing, but for qualifying we did get the utterly remarkable: "Maybe those waved yellow flags should have been stagnant yellow flags."

The funniest quote about Eddie, though, was after he tried to get out through the paddock gates, pulled his pass out of his pocket and dropped a £50 note which Jake Humphrey picked up while simultaneously knocking over a sign with his umbrella. We switched straight to Lee Mckenzie interviewing former F1 driver Derek Warwick who said: "I don't think it was a real £50 note to be honest."

Martin Brundle: "Lovely blue skies, it's looking good..."
Bernie Ecclestone: "I was worried when we lost Jim from Jim'll Fix It, and I had to do it all on my own." "

 

[CatsNK]

For me the worst thing about P&P is that they Will. Not. Shut. Up.

There is not one second of quiet time in their broadcast. I don't get it - is it an American thing to require constant chatter?

It's not present in the Eurosport or Universal Sports coverage. There are quiet moments interspersed throughout the broadcast. Times when there's nothing to discuss, and quiet is fine. Sometimes I like just listening to the helicopter or the motorcycle, TYVM.

I get VERY weary of the never-ending chatter. It doesn't even matter what they are saying. Just that they are saying SOMETHING.

 

[Old School]

I thought we were talking about Paul "The big men are all firing their guns in salvos" Sherwen and Phil "51:59 that's under 52 minutes" Liggett.

We have to stop "Battling with our machines"

Man, that was too funny. Sad though, because I imagined that quote in my head, watching P&P kill the Tour.

Thank goodness they've had their Lance filters on...let it stay that way!

 

[alberto.legstrong]

What I have done for a few stages, depending on when I wake up, is watch the race on my HDTV, which is amazing, mute it and listen to the Euro cast. There is about a 3 second delay on the TV, but I live with it. As long as I don't switch back and forth between commentator teams I'm usually okay. I watched the first part of Paris Roubaix on the computer and then finished it up with P&P. That is a real good way to see how much worse P&P are from their European counterparts. It took me a while to recover from that mistake.

What did you use to recover? I have some liquids in my cabinet over the stove that I keep around to assist in recovery. God gave us these things to help us recover from Phil and especially Paul.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

Haven't heard anyone mention this yesterday when Schleck finished the TT. (I won't say I am a fan of Phil's because frankly, he needs to retire and it's sad to watch a fellow man's mind slip because I know one day I will be that man.)

Phil was saying however much time Schleck had lost and he finished in like 30th place with still a few more coming in after him that pushed him further back. But he generally was saying that it was nothing to be proud of.

And Paul, ever the PR guy selling sh!t as gold, jumped right in and said hat normally he would have finished about 100th and on and on and generally tried to put lipstick on a pig.

And this is why I like Phil. Because he actually does know cycling even if he can't commentate any longer and clearly he had had his fill of Paul's shameless shilling for Radio Shack when clearly they are toast and an overall embarrassment.

And here's what he came back with after just sying it was not a TT to be proud of: 'Well in that case it was brilliant.' If you have it on your DVR go back and watch Schleck come in. It's fabulous.

+1 for Phil. They're awful. But if anyone of that horrendous crew gets it right, it's usually him.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

For me the worst thing about P&P is that they Will. Not. Shut. Up.

There is not one second of quiet time in their broadcast. I don't get it - is it an American thing to require constant chatter?

I get VERY weary of the never-ending chatter. It doesn't even matter what they are saying. Just that they are saying SOMETHING.

I think it is (apparently) and the funny thing is, I really don't think most Americans appreciate it. I guess the sponsors like it. I really don't know who's driving that bus!

 

[UpTheRoad]

For me the worst thing about P&P is that they Will. Not. Shut. Up.

There is not one second of quiet time in their broadcast. I don't get it - is it an American thing to require constant chatter?

It's not present in the Eurosport or Universal Sports coverage. There are quiet moments interspersed throughout the broadcast. Times when there's nothing to discuss, and quiet is fine. Sometimes I like just listening to the helicopter or the motorcycle, TYVM.

I get VERY weary of the never-ending chatter. It doesn't even matter what they are saying. Just that they are saying SOMETHING.

Bob Roll's verbal diarrhea is much, much worse. In early season races where he gets top billing he drones on even more so than does Paul.

 

[Michele]

This thread has been hijacked by a serious discussion about commentary quality.

I thought we were talking about Paul "The big men are all firing their guns in salvos" Sherwen and Phil "51:59 that's under 52 minutes" Liggett.

We have to stop "Battling with our machines"

I am neither a fan nor that offended by the dynamic duo but I had to laugh today when Phil was commenting on Leipheimer warming up on a stationary bike before the ITT

"...and we can see the importance of making sure you are fully warmed up before the start - look he's even wearing his ice jacket"



AND apologies if this has already been quoted above.

Pure class.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

Bob Roll's verbal diarrhea is much, much worse. In early season races where he gets top billing he drones on even more so than does Paul.

Bob takes the cake, He seriously has suffered some type of blunt force trauma to the head. And he likes it.

 

[egtalbot]

What a great thread! I imagine I might even like Phil or Paul if I knew them outside of watching the broadcast, but for me the number of errors per broadcast they make just ruins it.

I get that NBC wants commentary dumbed down - that's fine, no problems with that. But that's not what's wrong with them. Others have mentioned the problems:

1.They never shut up. You watch even a baseball or American football game and you don't see that kind of verbal diarrhea. I'm certain that NBC has broadcast tests that show that American audiences don't like a lot of dead air. I'm equally certain that the space between effectively minimizing dead air and what P&P do is vast.

2.They are repetitive to the point of nausea. I'm not talking about making the same point - that could be accepted as part of dumbing down coverage. But the same phrases over and over again. I'm loving some of the examples people have posted in this thread.

3.They are wrong over and over (and over and over) again. Dozens of times per broadcast, possibly into the hundreds for a long mountain stage that gets 4 or 5 groups on the road. For me, this is the cardinal sin. Maybe it doesn't bother most people, but Dear God keep your trap shut rather than commit your 27th mis-identification of the broadcast. Don't comment definitively on why a rider is doing something unless you actually know. Etc, etc.
And there are many shades of being wrong. Even if I reduce it to situations where they are objectively incorrect, the number is is still large. But if you add the cases where they posit things that are massively unlikely, it just makes my brain hurt. They are particular bad on this when it comes to whether certain riders can get over climbs.


Some have commented that a lot of this is due to only having limited access to feeds and the complexities. I'm sorry, but that's BS. I'm certain many of us in the forum can follow what's going on far more accurately than these guys report it. Yes, it takes a certain skill to broadcast in an effective manner and a certain skill to follow cycling races and a certain skill to synthesize the two. Only a minority of individuals would have these skills. But they certainly exist and have not been leveraged by NBC.

I'm convinced that the root of most of their problems is not senility or even Phil's love of the sound of his own voice, but their absurd commitment to creating drama. Enthusiasm is great; making something sound more important than it is. . .isn't. A large percentage of their mistakes are made in an attempt to inject more drama than is actually occurring. A cycling race - especially a stage of a grand tour - is a complex and beautiful balance of many tensions and subplots. Even for the crudest American audiences NBC can reasonably expect (and they're never going to get the guys that spend hours per week arguing on sports talk radio so they shouldn't even be considering appealing to that demo), a proper balance in the broadcast would be a heckuva lot more effective than what P&P do. Great moments are only obvious in the proper context, and overdramatizing removes that. We in America love to overdramatize, but you don't see it on the scale of P&P in the regular coverage of any other sport in America.

 

[Squire]

I'm convinced that the root of most of their problems is not senility or even Phil's love of the sound of his own voice, but their absurd commitment to creating drama. Enthusiasm is great; making something sound more important than it is. . .isn't.

According to Paul Sherwen, the peloton is ALWAYS moving along at a fast pace. Even when punctured riders have no problems whatsoever making it back.

 

[egtalbot]

According to Paul Sherwen, the peloton is ALWAYS moving along at a fast pace. Even when punctured riders have no problems whatsoever making it back.

Yeah, I've noticed that. I think i do remember one time when the riders were taking a natural break (have you noticed how excited P&P get to mention those?) and someone flatted and P&P allowed that the rider should have no trouble getting back on.

 

[The Tibetan Hat]

I really do like the Eurovision guys. Even though I can't always understand what Sean Kelly says,

One of my favourites, Sean Kelly commentating on the podium during final time trial of a tour back in the late Banesto years, "Olano is a definite turd!".

Poor old Abraham, for several years there Stephen Roche's Irish lilt telling Duffers "Olano's gone David" was a bit of a catchphrase when the race hit the Pyrenees.

For the British connoisseur these days it's Harmon and Kelly on Eurosport for the live coverage, then you record the 7pm highlights on ITV4 so you can later fast-forward past the commentary from P+P, straight to Ned's interviews, Boardman's analysis, and Imlach's pithy round-ups. Sorted.