Philippe Gilbert Discussion Thread

[Pantani_lives]

If you include time trial championships Cancellara is easily the best one-day racer of the century.

 

[Bardamu]

Easily the best Belgian rider of this century.

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

The best one-day riders of the Century are/were Bettini, Freire, Boonen, Cancellara, Valverde, Gilbert and Sagan.
Order, for me, after this spectacular Gilbert's win, is:
Bettini
Boonen
Gilbert
Cancellara
Valverde
Freire
Sagan

Aside from the Freire over Sagan debate (I'd put Sagan over Freire any day of the year as well), if we are talking in terms of one day racing I'd put Sagan clearly above Valverde as well. Of course Valverde is also a great stage racer who has won a gt, so arguebly if you look at their whole palmares it's Valverde over Sagan but in terms of one day racing Valverde has as many big wins as Sagan, however four of those came in the same race and aside from that the only WT one day races he has ever won are Fleche Wallone and San Sebastian (although tbf he is record champion in the former). Sagan has a lot more to his name.

Like what? 3x GW, E3 and 3x Canadian classics. Is that it?
That's not a lot more, in fact that's not even more. In best case (for Sagan), that's equal.

 

[Blanco]

Re:

If you include time trial championships Cancellara is easily the best one-day racer of the century.

Time trial is simply just that, a time trial. It's not a one-day race.

 

[tobydawq]

Re: Re:

The best one-day riders of the Century are/were Bettini, Freire, Boonen, Cancellara, Valverde, Gilbert and Sagan.
Order, for me, after this spectacular Gilbert's win, is:
Bettini
Boonen
Gilbert
Cancellara
Valverde
Freire
Sagan

Aside from the Freire over Sagan debate (I'd put Sagan over Freire any day of the year as well), if we are talking in terms of one day racing I'd put Sagan clearly above Valverde as well. Of course Valverde is also a great stage racer who has won a gt, so arguebly if you look at their whole palmares it's Valverde over Sagan but in terms of one day racing Valverde has as many big wins as Sagan, however four of those came in the same race and aside from that the only WT one day races he has ever won are Fleche Wallone and San Sebastian (although tbf he is record champion in the former). Sagan has a lot more to his name.

Like what? 3x GW, E3 and 3x Canadian classics. Is that it?
That's not a lot more, in fact that's not even more. In best case (for Sagan), that's equal.

Six National Championships! Valverde only has two

I think Sagan's five big wins count for more than Valverde's because of variety and being alone as a Slovakian in the WC and especially because of being the only three-time consecutive WC.

 

[Blanco]

Yeah they are, I agree, but it is not a massive difference, and I think Valverde compensates this with his legendary 6 WC medals and 5 more Monument podiums against Sagan's 3 podiums.

Edit: I know some of you don't like podiums to be mentioned in these debates, but when the riders are pretty even, which I think is the case, I think podiums and other big classic wins matter.

 

[tobydawq]

Re:

Yeah they are, I agree, but it is not a massive difference, and I think Valverde compensates this with his legendary 6 WC medals and 5 more Monument podiums against Sagan's 3 podiums.

Sagan has also won the European Championships. I still don't know how high to rate this but it has only had good winners so far and the riders seem to care about it, which is the most important thing when assessing the importance of a race.

But yes, if we can take podium spots into account, Valverde surely elevates himself from Sagan.

 

[Koronin]

In this case podiums should count. Valverde has several of those in both LBL and Lombardia. Also the 2 Spanish National Championships should be higher than the Slovakian National Championships due to the level of competition (even if there are times the Spanish national championships feel like the Movistar Invitational).

 

[Red Rick]

Nats don't matter. Podiums don't make up for much, especially not being like 3 big wins behind and having one unique monument

 

[tobydawq]

Re:

Nats don't matter. Podiums don't make up for much, especially not being like 3 big wins behind and having one unique monument

How is Valverde three big wins behind Sagan?

 

[Red Rick]

I'm more talking about being behind Bettini and obviously showcasing my expertise in missing context

 

[RedheadDane]

So... where is Gilbert standing in this Sagan vs. Valverde (vs. Bettini) competition?

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

So... where is Gilbert standing in this Sagan vs. Valverde (vs. Bettini) competition?

Bettini>Gilbert>Sagan>Valverde imo

 

[tobydawq]

What about Laporte, though?

 

[Koronin]

Re:

So... where is Gilbert standing in this Sagan vs. Valverde (vs. Bettini) competition?

With Gilbert winning Paris-Roubaix it puts him ahead of Valverde (who, IMO is ahead of Sagan). However, he's still behind Cancellara, Boonen, and Bettini.

 

[VDB44]

Gilbert > Bettini

More classic wins, more diverse classics, more podiums, more stage wins.
The last rider to win 4 different monuments was Sean Kelly 30 years ago,
the fact that Gilbert does this in an era where specialization is the key word is truly impressive.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Re:

What about Laporte, though?

Laporte is above everyone, he just lets other riders have fun out of mercy.

 

[Blanco]

Gilbert > Bettini

More classic wins, more diverse classics, more podiums, more stage wins.
The last rider to win 4 different monuments was Sean Kelly 30 years ago,
the fact that Gilbert does this in an era where specialization is the key word is truly impressive.

Simply no.
8 big wins beats 6, no matter what. No diversity could help, 2 big ones is a serious gap.
I mean Hennie Kuiper won 4 different Monuments plus WC (just like Gilbert), but who the hell puts him ahead of Moser or Argentin for example?!
If he wins 7th and if that is San Remo, I would gladly put him in the company of Sean Kelly and Fausto Coppi ahead of Bettini and Boonen, but for now he is below them imo.

 

[VDB44]

Gilbert > Bettini

More classic wins, more diverse classics, more podiums, more stage wins.
The last rider to win 4 different monuments was Sean Kelly 30 years ago,
the fact that Gilbert does this in an era where specialization is the key word is truly impressive.

Simply no.
8 big wins beats 6, no matter what. No diversity could help, 2 big ones is a serious gap.
I mean Hennie Kuiper won 4 different Monuments plus WC (just like Gilbert), but who the hell puts him ahead of Moser or Argentin for example?!
If he wins 7th and if that is San Remo, I would gladly put him in the company of Sean Kelly and Fausto Coppi ahead of Bettini and Boonen, but for now he is below them imo.

Your definition of big wins is where we disagree, it narrows your view on things.
Let's take San Remo and Amstel Gold.
Bettini wins San Remo and has one 3th at Amstel. Gilbert has two 3th places at San Remo and 4 wins at Amstel Gold. The way you look at numbers, that one San Remo makes you forget about all the rest, while I think 4 times Amstel and 2 podiums in San Remo is much more impressive than one victory in San Remo and one 3th at Amstel.
And it's not only the wins, also the podiums in classics. In the Tour of Flanders Gilbert takes one win, but also got 3 other podiums, it all counts when you try to compare riders.

 

[Saint Unix]

Gilbert reigns over every other rider this century so far, imo. Five monument wins in four different monuments and two podiums in the only one he hasn't won is insane in its own right. Then you add the WC win. Then the Ardennes triple in 2011. Then the wins in Strade Bianche (albeit before it reached its current status), Omloop, 4x Amstel, Fleche Wallonne, Brabantse Pijl, Paris-Tours and San Sebastian. Then the podiums in Gent-Wevelgem, E3 and Dwars door Vlaanderen. Then there's the stage wins in all three of the GTs. Then there's the countless wins in smaller classics. Basically, if it's a one day race, Gilbert can win it. His ability to win any race has not been seen for 30 years.

Bettini was a God on the bike, but he never podiumed Flanders and he never even rode Roubaix, and for me those two races are the most important one-day races on the calendar. PhilGil has nearly copied Bettini in the hilly classics and in addition has won or podiumed pretty much every cobbled classic there is. Winning a wide spectrum of races once or twice weighs more heavily than winning a narrower spectrum of races more times, at least for me. Dominance comes along quite often. Versatility combined with dominance is at best a once-in-a-generation kind of thing.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Previous two posts make excellent points. Especially Gilbert's Amstel/Remo record over Bettini's.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Not to mention Gilbert's longevity in the peloton.

 

[SafeBet]

I know podiums don't matter to most posters here, but I have a fetish for them so...
Most podiums in Monuments + WCRR + ORR:

Fabian Cancellara 17 (7 wins)
Alejandro Valverde 16 (5)
Tom Boonen 15 (8)
Philippe Gilbert 12 (6)
Paolo Bettini 10 (8)
Peter Sagan 8 (5)
Oscar Freire 8 (6)

If there's any mistake please correct.

 

[tobydawq]

Re:

I know podiums don't matter to most posters here, but I have a fetish for them so...
Most podiums in Monuments + WCRR + ORR:

Fabian Cancellara 17 (7 wins)
Alejandro Valverde 16 (5)
Tom Boonen 15 (8)
Philippe Gilbert 12 (6)
Paolo Bettini 10 (8)
Peter Sagan 8 (5)
Oscar Freire 8 (6)

If there's any mistake please correct.

And Cancellara with 12 consecutive podiums in monuments that he finished is one of the most crazy achievements I have ever witnessed.

 

[Bardamu]

Re:

Gilbert reigns over every other rider this century so far, imo. Five monument wins in four different monuments and two podiums in the only one he hasn't won is insane in its own right. Then you add the WC win. Then the Ardennes triple in 2011. Then the wins in Strade Bianche (albeit before it reached its current status), Omloop, 4x Amstel, Fleche Wallonne, Brabantse Pijl, Paris-Tours and San Sebastian. Then the podiums in Gent-Wevelgem, E3 and Dwars door Vlaanderen. Then there's the stage wins in all three of the GTs. Then there's the countless wins in smaller classics. Basically, if it's a one day race, Gilbert can win it. His ability to win any race has not been seen for 30 years.

Bettini was a God on the bike, but he never podiumed Flanders and he never even rode Roubaix, and for me those two races are the most important one-day races on the calendar. PhilGil has nearly copied Bettini in the hilly classics and in addition has won or podiumed pretty much every cobbled classic there is. Winning a wide spectrum of races once or twice weighs more heavily than winning a narrower spectrum of races more times, at least for me. Dominance comes along quite often. Versatility combined with dominance is at best a once-in-a-generation kind of thing.

Totally agree, that's what makes Gilbert special in this era. A true classics rider should be able to compete in every one-day race. From Roubaix to Lombardia.
True all-rounders should also compete in GT's, but aside from Valverde and Nibali nobody has the full package in the current peloton.