Playing God: Eufemiano Fuentes

[sniper]

Keep on speculating bu don't start being a cry baby when someone points out that your speculation is ill-founded.

you're being a bit harsh to me there. I just welcomed hrotha's intel, didn't I?
the idea of speculation is to get closer to the truth, not to manipulate the truth. whether the facts corroborate or falsify a certain premisse is irrelevant. We learn from it either way.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

If Fuentes indeed received death threats that proves exactly that. I never stated it was unlikely per say but it doesn't even begin to make a case that that a 52-year old dying of a heart attack really died of more nefarious causes. Which is exactly what you implied. You implied the 52-year old male must have have been killed and that the same applies to Xavier Tondo and that the Fuentes's aid was not suffering from Alzheimer's disease.

All I did was apply Occam's razor and then the most logical explanation is still that a 52-year old male dying of a heart attack is hardly unheard off (rather the opposite really).

So, at last you agree there are some strange circumstances going on. That is good. I like that. You have an open mind.

 

[GJB123]

So, at last you agree there are some strange circumstances going on. That is good. I like that. You have an open mind.

When did I say otherwise? We are talking about healthy people ingesting all kinds of medicines and taking out en re-infusing their own blood for performance enhancing purposes all the while assisted by a practicing gynecologist, his sister and his senile medical assistant up to a point of re-infusing the wrong blood. Yeah, I would say I can acknowledge there were some pretty mind-boggling things going on with Fuentes cum suis.

All I have ever said is that Tondo and his death do not seem to be related to the Fuentes-case, that a 52-year old male dying of a heart attack is not really unheard off and besides, as hrotha explained much earlier, the evidence he was about to give will still be used and that the fact that Fuentes's medical aid was already known to have suffered from Alzheimer's disease (as early as 2004 according to Hamilton's book) way before he was deemed unfit to stand trial or give evidence and that given these facts the speculations of foul play being the case by connecting these non-existent dots is ridiculous.

Now if people would start speculating based on known facts rather than some silly innuendo we might actually learn something. As it stands most people here didn't learn anything new from this factless speculation.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

is ridiculous.

You leaving out the Alberto Leon suicide is not ridiculous on the other hand. Could be a honest mistake.

But, since when is Hamilton an expert on dementia? Do you really think Fuentes would leave a multi million buisiness a year in the hands of a demented old fart, or Saiz for the matter?

Please.

 

[GJB123]

You leaving out the Alberto Leon suicide is not ridiculous on the other hand. Could be a honest mistake.

But, since when is Hamilton an expert on dementia? Do you really think Fuentes would leave a multi million buisiness a year in the hands of a demented old fart, or Saiz for the matter?

Please.

Yeah, I already thought I missed a corpse somewhere. It is hard to keep track sometimes. This was one of the defendants in the Galgo-case right? Do we have any indication whatsoever he was about to sing like a canary and was therefore helped in his suicide attempt?

I am not stating Hamilton is an expert on dementia nor was he himself. Have you actually read the book? It was stated rather matter-of-factly and as with other things in the book I think we can assume that this story was corroborated by others. Hell, it even turned out to be correct in hindsight.

As for the business acumen of Fuentes and his risk appetite. Remember this is the same guy who popped some pills himself to show Jaksche (I think it was or was it Hamilton) that they were completely harmless. Others have corroborated that Fuentes's set up wasn't exactly the epitome of professionalism or a smooth operation. So if you ask whether I think Fuentes took a calculated risk by letting an old fart near the blood bags, by absence of evidence indicating otherwise, my answer would be: apparently yes.

 

[the asian]

Vicioso suspended by Katusha.

 

[hektoren]

Just a thought: IF there's a guilty verdict coming Fuentes' way, meaning what he did was indeed to the detriment of the health of his clients, wouldn't the logical and prudent way forward be to identify his clients, enabling them to take precautions and go through a thorough medical screening to identify possible problems, post-Fuentes treatment, based on the problems experienced by several of his clients?
If I were a responsible health official in Spain, gaining full oversight would be a priority for me. Instructing Fuentes to disclose all identities would be important. Admittedly not disclosure vis-a-vis the press, but certainly to health authorities.

 

[Frosty]

I already refuted this. His evidence was or is going to be presented to the judge anyway.

Playing devils advocate, it could be a message to others though who might be thinking of whether they will tell the truth or not.

 

[D-Queued]

...

Did/Does the Spanish Federal government support dopers???

I presume this is a rhetorical question.

...

Of course it is rhetorical.

The Spanish government doesn't just support dopers, it is official government policy to aid and abet.


Few certainties in Alberto Contador case

Predictably, Contador was exonerated by the Spanish cycling federation, the body that had jurisdiction over his case. Even though the committee that examined it (through an exchange of paperwork, not a live hearing) was purportedly independent, there was overt pressure from the grassroots all the way to the highest levels of Spain’s government to let Contador off the hook.

And...

Two cycling stars make headlines, but Alberto Contador case has bigger impact

Politicians, up to and including Spain's prime minister, publicly stated Contador should not be sanctioned.

...

The message to prominent Spanish athletes is clear: We've got your back.

Cycling is clearly a second tier sport in Spain. The Government only steps in after you have tested positive.

Football and Tennis players should not be concerned. They will never test positive in the first place.

Dave.

 

[hektoren]

Somehow, spaniards must have lost a lot of cojones since the days of the spanish inquisition. Their legal system is a parody!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tym0MObFpTI

 

[hiero2]

I don't want to make it seem as if I'm on the doper's side, but the first thing I thought about was Ricco, and that this has some sort of truth to it.

The fridge on the plane 'key to the Vuelta' thing was a bit weird.

Why would Jaksche be surprised at who didn't appear on the list if nobody knew who else was a Fuentes client? Unless he just meant people he thought were doping.

This too. I'm reading between the lines on that and assuming that he would justify any "procedures" that he oversees as being "healthier" and safer than what any uninformed or careless athlete might attempt to do on their own, or under "less professional" guidance.

I think that conclusion is incorrect. Fuentes clearly revealed no more care for the health of the riders then Ricco demonstrated for his own well-being and health. This is especially clear when it was revealed that the doping was not always administered by a doctor, or even a health professional.

Nah, he means riding a GT or whatever drains your energy so much you couldn't stay healthy without PEDs. It's one of his personal mantras (not that he calls them "PEDs" or "dope").

This fits. Anquetil if famous now for saying a rider couldn't compete all year without PEDs. However, Anquetil also claimed to be RACING 200+ days per year, something you don't see today. But I think his justification stayed with us - "you can't stay healthy and compete in these races without help". My thought? Well, then don't RACE if you can't do it! If riders wouldn't ride, it wouldn't take long for race organizers to change things.

 

[D-Queued]

I think that conclusion is incorrect. Fuentes clearly revealed no more care for the health of the riders then Ricco demonstrated for his own well-being and health. This is especially clear when it was revealed that the doping was not always administered by a doctor, or even a health professional.



This fits. Anquetil if famous now for saying a rider couldn't compete all year without PEDs. However, Anquetil also claimed to be RACING 200+ days per year, something you don't see today. But I think his justification stayed with us - "you can't stay healthy and compete in these races without help". My thought? Well, then don't RACE if you can't do it! If riders wouldn't ride, it wouldn't take long for race organizers to change things.

Kind of like how us unenhanced humans interpret our racing calendars.

Even for amateurs, there are too many races on the calendar. You can't blame the organizers, though. There will always be some folks that focus on the shoulder seasons to try and grab placings.

Dave.

 

[del1962]

I see Vicosio has a bad back, at least that is the reason he could not attend the trial last friday, apparently after failing to attend this week Katusha have suspended him.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Vicosio willing to do a dna test to prove that the blood bags aint his.

 

[del1962]

Vicosio willing to do a dna test to prove that the blood bags aint his.

Genuine offer or hoping was one of lost BB, playing the odds?

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Genuine offer or hoping was one of lost BB, playing the odds?

I don't know.

 

[Frosty]

Didnt Ullrich do a DNA test to prove it wasnt his but it ended up proving it was his?

 

[hrotha]

So apparently the judge says Vicioso's legal residence wasn't in Andorra like he said, but in Aragon, where they tried to notify him. Jesus Christ, can't they stop lying even over something that trivial?

 

[GreasyMonkey]

So apparently the judge says Vicioso's legal residence wasn't in Andorra like he said, but in Aragon, where they tried to notify him. Jesus Christ, can't they stop lying even over something that trivial?

Who is lying - judge Judy or Vicioso? Check the Empadronamiento......

 

[airstream]

It seemed like WADA called for those very notorious BB's. Do they have any perspectives to be identified or all that stuff will sink in a juridical mess for 6-7 years once again? How do you think?

 

[sniper]

It seemed like WADA called for those very notorious BB's. Do they have any perspectives to be identified or all that stuff will sink in a juridical mess for 6-7 years once again? How do you think?

The whole ado about those baggies could explain why the IOC has been firing against WADA lately.
If WADA gets hold of those baggies, it'll be alarmcode red at IOC headquarters.

 

[TheGame]

Genuine offer or hoping was one of lost BB, playing the odds?

One bag in storage for Vicioso dated 23/4/06, a bag he had withdrawn just after Liege Bastogne Liege.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Didnt Ullrich do a DNA test to prove it wasnt his but it ended up proving it was his?

Ullrich's DNA test wasn't voluntary, it was ordered by German investigators.

 

[airstream]

The interesting fact is even riders who fought for top-20 (Scarponi, Serrano and Caruso) had to use 2 blood bags in the 2006 Giro. LOL. By stardarts of that field, I'm beginning to consider Basso's victory almost fair.

 

[Frosty]

Ullrich's DNA test wasn't voluntary, it was ordered by German investigators.

Ok, thanks, was genuinely unsure.