Playing God: Eufemiano Fuentes

[Havetts]

But wouldnt it make sense that the transfusions are the day before? So if PR was on the 12th the re-infusion is on the 11th.

 

[Netserk]

But wouldnt it make sense that the transfusions are the day before? So if PR was on the 12th the re-infusion is on the 11th.

The infusion is on the 10th, the race day 11th, and withdrawal 12th.

 

[Mad Elephant Man]

Another option for the 11 April 2004 is Klasika Primavera.

 

[Frosty]

Another option for the 11 April 2004 is Klasika Primavera.

Going back to the original post by Tyler's Twin, where has this schedule come from?

Another option is the last day of the Pais de Vasco as in 2003 there were two stages on this final day. Obviously the schedule doesnt make any note of the preceding stages but the Basque Tour would fit in with the rest of the schedule.

 

[Netserk]

Going back to the original post by Tyler's Twin, where has this schedule come from?

Another option is the last day of the Pais de Vasco as in 2003 there were two stages on this final day. Obviously the schedule doesnt make any note of the preceding stages but the Basque Tour would fit in with the rest of the schedule.

But why not dope before then? Either way it doesn't make much sense.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Is there any source?

 

[Cobblestoned]

They raided his home and forced a hair sample.

They raided his home while he was on Flitterwochen. Police took pc and documents with them. Some newspaper later published private emails, involving Sarah, and other details. Ullrich later paddled across the beautiful Bodensee and gave DNA sample in a German policestation, before he was forced to give one anyway.

 

[del1962]

They raided his home while he was on Flitterwochen. Police took pc and documents with them. Some newspaper later published private emails, involving Sarah, and other details. Ullrich later paddled across the beautiful Bodensee and gave DNA sample in a German policestation, before he was forced to give one anyway.

What I don't understand is the anti-doping authorities must have blood samples from cyclists and they will contain dna?

 

[Merckx index]

I also think it is a rough plan. The dates simply doesn't match.

I agree. This isn’t necessarily how it all went down, but a tentative schedule. It’s even possible they missed a date by a day or two. Though he could have had extra blood, from a withdrawal that was frozen that occurred prior to November, I doubt this, because his schedule during the season suggests withdrawals at times that would have been inconvenient, because of upcoming races. If he had extra blood, he would have used it at that time.

Wrt the extra blood in October, he could have withdrawn blood any time in August or September, since he wasn’t penciled in for any races then. It could be that no date for withdrawal was indicated, because they were leaving the exact date open, to be decided later. Given a chance, a rider would rather not schedule a withdrawal ahead of time, since unforeseen circumstances—e.g., a suspicious passport—might force him to revise the date.

What I don't understand is the anti-doping authorities must have blood samples from cyclists and they will contain dna?

Any blood samples that are stored long term have to have the red cells separated from the plasma. The red cells don’t contain DNA, though they probably would be slightly contaminated with white cells, which do. But it's my understanding that blood samples generally are not stored long-term. As discussed when the USADA charging letter came out last June, while LA's passport data were available, the blood samples on which those data were based had long since been discarded.

A better bet for DNA source would be urine samples.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I find it difficult to believe that someone who gets blood bags mixed up between different riders is that organised (a dedicated computer program?) when it comes to a schedule.

Was it transcribed from a piece of paper? What software was the schedule written in - the UI is like nothing I have seen.

FGL asked for a source and I'd second the request?

 

[peterst6906]

I find it difficult to believe that someone who gets blood bags mixed up between different riders is that organised (a dedicated computer program?) when it comes to a schedule.

I think Tyler would back up your scepticism too.

Though he does seem to have had an impressive list of clients (based on numbers only, not names since we don't have all those) that he was trying to help cheat. So it may be reasonable that not every elemtent of that was totally organised.

the UI is like nothing I have seen.

As a series of rows and columns that could be quite easily done in any Spreadsheeting program. Nothing particularly unique or sophisticated about it.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

As a series of rows and columns that could be quite easily done in any Spreadsheeting program. Nothing particularly unique or sophisticated about it.

Been doing a bit of Excel work recently. And work as a developer for employment, so know how to work it.

I cannot see Fuentes
* doing alternating row colours
* working out how to wrap / make it look like wrapped numbers along the top (if you can do that in <= 10 mouse clicks in Excel I'd love to see your workflow)
* inserting a coloured, filled / empty shape for all those dots / lines, etc

You could set up a bunch of buttonised macros, etc to help, but again - that much effort from someone who mixes up blood bags?

Personally I'd develop a dedicated app but that's because that's the space I inhabit. For Fuentes, I'd say he wouldn't have the time himself, and getting someone else in to do it = more people involved in his endeavour = more links in the doping chain that can "fail".

 

[peterst6906]

Been doing a bit of Excel work recently. And work as a developer for employment, so know how to work it.

I cannot see Fuentes
* doing alternating row colours
* working out how to wrap / make it look like wrapped numbers along the top (if you can do that in <= 10 mouse clicks in Excel I'd love to see your workflow)
* inserting a coloured, filled / empty shape for all those dots / lines, etc

You could set up a bunch of buttonised macros, etc to help, but again - that much effort from someone who mixes up blood bags?

Personally I'd develop a dedicated app but that's because that's the space I inhabit. For Fuentes, I'd say he wouldn't have the time himself, and getting someone else in to do it = more people involved in his endeavour = more links in the doping chain that can "fail".

Not wanting to take this off topic, but the numbers along the top don't have to be wrapped. Easy enough to do with 2 rows, same for the other cells.

Since you don't think it's possible, here is a quick example for the Nov, Dec (and no need for inserting shapes. There are standard symbols available for Excel that can do those same effect: ie. black dots and reds dots with white fill):

In any case, I wasn't saying this is Excel, just that the UI isn't all that unique. Rows and columns with a few entries in them.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Not wanting to take this off topic, but the numbers along the top don't have to be wrapped. Easy enough to do with 2 rows, same for the other cells.

Since you don't think it's possible, here is a quick example for the Nov, Dec (and no need for inserting shapes. There are standard symbols available for Excel that can do those same effect: ie. black dots and reds dots with white fill):

Please, copy and paste the specific part of my post where I say, "I don't think it's possible".

My point was - it's a lot of work to do what has been done in the original schedule image, in Excel. More work than I think Fuentes could be bothered with, given he seemed to mix up blood bags with impunity.

 

[peterst6906]

Please, copy and paste the specific part of my post where I say, "I don't think it's possible".

Yep, rolleyes is very appropriate.

Let's just get back on topic since like any of us, you really have no clue what Fuentes would chose to do or not do.

There is nothing sophisticated the way that doping program is presented. It's easy enough to do in any Spreadsheet (and extremely easy in Excel for all of those elements), though there are also many other possibilities.

Sophistication doesn't seem to be one of the more crucial parts of his work though (in a program that ran for many, many years so must have had some sophistication to not make many more mistakes). On that, I'm sure we can agree and just move on.

 

[hrotha]

Hmm, I think it's pretty obvious that table wasn't made by Fuentes, but by some journos or whatever who put the raw data (handwritten calendars) into what they thought would be a more useful format.

 

[peterst6906]

Hmm, I think it's pretty obvious that table wasn't made by Fuentes, but by some journos or whatever who put the raw data (handwritten calendars) into what they thought would be a more useful format.

Hahaha, on looking at the original web source used for the image posted up thread, it's not related to Fuentes at all, nor a real cyclist:

http://traningslara.se/bloddopning-del-2-hur-vanligt-ar-bloddopning/

The link mentions that it's from this article:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22225538

which is available in pdf here (and worth a read as an academic review of blood doping):

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/stor...5381.2011.01822.x.pdf?v=1&t=hdv1rau4&19e66fc5

Part of the text to accompany the image in the article:

Based on testimonies from caught cyclists, confiscated diaries, etc., it is easy to unravel the blood doping strategy in present-day cycle sports. Here is the example of a cyclist aiming to perform well in Paris-Nice (seven stage race in March), a spring classic (one day race) in late April, and then in the Tour de France (three week stage race) in July, and also the world championships held in the autumn.

So it's dummy data, used within the paper to explain why OOC testing is required in order to catch Epo use, but ultimately little more than a red herring in this thread.

 

[D-Queued]

Been doing a bit of Excel work recently. And work as a developer for employment, so know how to work it.

I cannot see Fuentes
* doing alternating row colours
* working out how to wrap / make it look like wrapped numbers along the top (if you can do that in <= 10 mouse clicks in Excel I'd love to see your workflow)
* inserting a coloured, filled / empty shape for all those dots / lines, etc

You could set up a bunch of buttonised macros, etc to help, but again - that much effort from someone who mixes up blood bags?

Personally I'd develop a dedicated app but that's because that's the space I inhabit. For Fuentes, I'd say he wouldn't have the time himself, and getting someone else in to do it = more people involved in his endeavour = more links in the doping chain that can "fail".

I dunno. I think that spreadsheet was easy peasy.

The *only* challenging part is that you must actually type in 1, 2, 3, etc.

Otherwise, the Titles formatting and the table shading can be done in 8 mouse clicks.

The month entries can be done with two entries and a mouse pull.

Mouse Clicks to format columns and set up Table:

Pull right on Excel
Left click on Microsoft Excel 2010
Left Click Row 1
Left Click 'Text' from Menu Bar
Left Click 'Wrap Text' from Menu Bar
Left click cell B1

Now, the hardest part:
1 <Tab>
2 <Tab>
etc.
This cannot be done by simple fill (e.g. '1' in B1, '2' in C1, then highlight B1 & C1 and pull little square to AF), unfortunately, or the alignment won't work

Back to the easy stuff:
Left Mouse select A1 to AF13
Left pull down 'Format as Table' in the Menu Bar, select color scheme
Left Mouse Highlight Columns B to AF
Left mouse select one of the column margins within that selection and adjust to Width between 1.00 and 2.00; Release left mouse
Left click cell A2
January <return>
February <return>
Left mouse select A2 and A3, pull square to A13, release

DONE


Dave.

 

[spalco]

Been doing a bit of Excel work recently. And work as a developer for employment, so know how to work it.

I cannot see Fuentes
* doing alternating row colours
* working out how to wrap / make it look like wrapped numbers along the top (if you can do that in <= 10 mouse clicks in Excel I'd love to see your workflow)
* inserting a coloured, filled / empty shape for all those dots / lines, etc

You could set up a bunch of buttonised macros, etc to help, but again - that much effort from someone who mixes up blood bags?

Personally I'd develop a dedicated app but that's because that's the space I inhabit. For Fuentes, I'd say he wouldn't have the time himself, and getting someone else in to do it = more people involved in his endeavour = more links in the doping chain that can "fail".

You're way overthinking this. The schedule is probably drawn by El Pais graphics department or some other newspaper.

I thought Fuentes wrote the "programmes" pen on paper.

 

[peterst6906]

You're way overthinking this. The schedule is probably drawn by El Pais graphics department or some other newspaper.

I thought Fuentes wrote the "programmes" pen on paper.

That particular program has nothing to do with Fuentes or El Pais.

Purely fictional data for an academic paper.

 

[rata de sentina]

I dunno. I think that spreadsheet was easy peasy.

.
.

Mouse Clicks to format columns and set up Table:
.
.
.

I cannot believe you bothered to type all that shyte. Has the clinic sunk so low that now we have the Excel nerds pontificating.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I cannot believe you bothered to type all that shyte. Has the clinic sunk so low that now we have the Excel nerds pontificating.

Another quality post. Good job.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Hmm, I think it's pretty obvious that table wasn't made by Fuentes, but by some journos or whatever who put the raw data (handwritten calendars) into what they thought would be a more useful format.

This was my recollection also - handwritten, in typical MD illegible handwriting style.

 

[will10]

Been doing a bit of Excel work recently. And work as a developer for employment, so know how to work it.

I cannot see Fuentes
* doing alternating row colours
* working out how to wrap / make it look like wrapped numbers along the top (if you can do that in <= 10 mouse clicks in Excel I'd love to see your workflow)
* inserting a coloured, filled / empty shape for all those dots / lines, etc

You could set up a bunch of buttonised macros, etc to help, but again - that much effort from someone who mixes up blood bags?

Personally I'd develop a dedicated app but that's because that's the space I inhabit. For Fuentes, I'd say he wouldn't have the time himself, and getting someone else in to do it = more people involved in his endeavour = more links in the doping chain that can "fail".

That is not a complicated spreadsheet at all, IMO. Set it up once and template it for all your riders' schedules? Not a big deal. You're giving a clearly very smart man very little credit.

Then again this may be a journalists interpretation of one of Fuentes' handwritten schedules, who knows.

EDIT: Sorry guys I didn't realise there was another page of posts already saying pretty much everything I wrote. Apols

 

[D-Queued]

That is not a complicated spreadsheet at all, IMO. Set it up once and template it for all your riders' schedules? Not a big deal. You're giving a clearly very smart man very little credit.

Then again this may be a journalists interpretation of one of Fuentes' handwritten schedules, who knows.

EDIT: Sorry guys I didn't realise there was another page of posts already saying pretty much everything I wrote. Apols

Not sure what it is like in Spain, but MDs are typically computer laggards. Always find this surprising given the amount of education. My hypothesis is that this economically motivated. MDs are fundamentally compensated on a 'piecework' model, and PCs are not covered by billing codes and take away from patient time / how many patients you can see in an hour. Equipment buying decisions favor those items that can be billed for, like an ultrasound machine.

Thus, the original assertion that Fuentes is chaotically organized is still important - not whether one can easily set up that spreadsheet.

And, this assertion is arguably far more important to the Court case. Chaos in blood extraction, handling, storage, and re-infusion is arguably not good for one's health.

I might be able to figure out how to quickly set up a spreadsheet format, but I may be no good at formulas and definitely don't put me in charge of blood extraction. In the case of Fuentes, don't let him do either spreadsheets or blood handling lest you get Santiago's refill instead of your own.

Dave.