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Podium behaviour poll

Page 9 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.

Do you think Sagan’s behaviour on the podium wrong?

  • No - I like him even more after this.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
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Oct 30, 2011
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Eshnar said:
Do I have to remind you all that this is the PRR section? No politics, thanks.

How exactly do you discuss this incident in a politically neutral manner? To discuss the incident with any nuance at all I think you have to think about the reasons why it happened, and the social context is highly relevant here. All the politics present on this thread is only here insofar as it is relevant to the subject matter of the thread.
 
Oct 25, 2009
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If it's funny and not a big deal then would everyone be okay if a podium girl grabbed a rider's package? Turnabout is fair play.
 
wannab said:
Oh Please!

Podium girls are exactly used as eye candy, creating this kind of context and being surprised someone harmfully jokes by pinching is NOT irrelevant ..

The role model argument is total BS, athletes don't sign up this! What about their liberties? why should they be seen as a role model anyway, I don't expect this, why do you? It's also funny they're only a role model when they're famous..

When role models as you describe are needed to guide someone's moral landscape I think there's something wrong and ask myself how one could function in today's society.


ps: Sagan apologied for those who recently pinched someone and don't know what do next

you do realise that your moral landscape is almost solely based on that of the role models you had when growing up? Such as parents, relatives, teachers etc. and the morals of those in the past who decided how a civilised society should work.

They are role models and every single professional sports person knows that when they sign their contract. Their wages are paid by the public, either indirectly through sponsorship or directly through attendance at events, shirt sales etc. They are expected to act professionally. Of course they are only role models when famous, they can't be a role model to someone who hasn't heard of them.
 
Oct 30, 2011
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DenisMenchov said:
Yes, but both men and women have the chance to vote in the Elections, so if we assume that a society has about 50% of both sexes, and it means that women are treating other women in a chauvinist manner?

I'm well aware that Elections are not the same in all countries, but still, if women vote for a men rather then a women that just means he is the better option, no?

Just because a society offers women the vote does not mean it is equal. Yes, women can behave in a sexist manner towards other women. During the sufferagette movement (women campaigning for the vote in the UK), many other women objected on the grounds that "women should not involve themselves in such things" and objected to female MPs because "their place was in the home". That kind of attitude has not died; below are three pages of victim-blaming tweets, many of which are written by women, with one sample below, too.

I explained earlier why I feel that if the most capable candidate is usually a man, there is a deeper problem.

Anyway the point is that Sagan grew up in what might have been a more sexist society, on balance, than many of those condemning him. As such it is necessary to view his actions not merely as an isolated bad incident but as the product of a bad culture.

http://publicshaming.tumblr.com/post/45635407944/the-victim-blaming-****-shaming-reactions-to-the

http://publicshaming.tumblr.com/post/45608534736/the-news-out-of-steubenville-today-is-a-small

http://publicshaming.tumblr.com/post/45735132701/if-you-thought-these-unbelievable-reactions-to

tumblr_inline_mjw2brLjaZ1qawfnh.png
 
Also, people saying he is young and will learn, grow up. He's 23. I knew this behaviour was unacceptable when I was 10. And as has been shown, this isn't the first time he's done this, it's just the first time he's been arrogant enough to go the whole way and think he can get away with it.


As an aside, I'm also disgusted Cannondale haven't released a statement about this. I'm currently looking for a new mountain bike and they have just lost a sale.
 
Oct 30, 2011
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maltiv said:
Why not compare apples with apples, and say that a podium girl grabbed a rider's butt?

Seriously, no one would care. At all.

The rider might. The podium girl's employer probably would. I'd think it was a bit inappropriate, but on balance less inappropriate. The different way society treats the sexualities of men and women means that the same action from a women on a man can be less of a violation than that of a man on a woman. It's wrong, but I think it is the case.
 
Caruut said:
How exactly do you discuss this incident in a politically neutral manner? To discuss the incident with any nuance at all I think you have to think about the reasons why it happened, and the social context is highly relevant here. All the politics present on this thread is only here insofar as it is relevant to the subject matter of the thread.

X2

I also feel it's impossible to seperate professional cycling from culture and hence politics.
 
Jul 25, 2011
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King Boonen said:
you do realise that your moral landscape is almost solely based on that of the role models you had when growing up? Such as parents, relatives, teachers etc. and the morals of those in the past who decided how a civilised society should work.

They are role models and every single professional sports person knows that when they sign their contract. Their wages are paid by the public, either indirectly through sponsorship or directly through attendance at events, shirt sales etc. They are expected to act professionally. Of course they are only role models when famous, they can't be a role model to someone who hasn't heard of them.

wannab said:
When role models as you describe are needed to guide someone's moral landscape

Your summing up the right role models, yet, not because they are famous.
It's kind of a leap to go from parents to cyclists don't you think?

FAMOUS rappers, FAMOUS rockstars, FAMOUS cyclists, FAMOUS celebrities .. they aren't getting paid for being a role model, I don't expect them to be either
 
Jun 16, 2009
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theyoungest said:
Americans/Anglosaxons tend to be more politically correct than those from the European mainland, that's definitely true. Sexist/racist/fascist jokes are more acceptable over here, generally speaking. There's also something in what Bavarianrider says, the further East you go in Europe, the 'worse' it gets, certainly regarding sexism.

The opinion piece by Jane Aubrey certainly takes things way out of proportion, and I have to admit that my first reaction to it was "that's typically Anglosaxon". If you report on such a predominantly European sport, you have to take into account the European way of thinking.

I would have to agree with that and I originally thought it was the Europeans who were more politically correct and were sensitive to those jokes.

I think Jane Aubrey has got her knickers in a knot for many reasons:
a) She is a hysterical, politically correct idiot
b) There has been lots of talk in the media in Australia about sexism and misogyny.
c) She wants to make a name for herself, especially amongst feminist circles, so she takes the 'moral high ground' and feels the need to criticise Sagan
 
wannab said:
Your summing up the right role models, yet, not because they are famous.
It's kind of a leap to go from parents to cyclists don't you think?

FAMOUS rappers, FAMOUS rockstars, FAMOUS cyclists, FAMOUS celebrities .. they aren't getting paid for being a role model, I don't expect them to be either

All famous people are role models, they have no choice in the matter, particularly sports people. We all remember wanting to be a particular footballer, cyclist, rugby player etc. when we were younger. They all provide a service that is a luxury and as such are reliant on people's generosity/loyalty, particularly when sponsorship is involved. Just because you don't expect them to be doesn't mean they aren't.

Notice I am not distinguishing between good or bad role models, or saying that they have to be a role model for every attribute of their life, I'm just pointing out that, in the position they are in, they are role models. If they don't like it there are plenty other jobs they could do.
 
King Boonen said:
All famous people are role models, they have no choice in the matter, particularly sports people. We all remember wanting to be a particular footballer, cyclist, rugby player etc. when we were younger. They all provide a service that is a luxury and as such are reliant on people's generosity/loyalty, particularly when sponsorship is involved. Just because you don't expect them to be doesn't mean they aren't.

Notice I am not distinguishing between good or bad role models, or saying that they have to be a role model for every attribute of their life, I'm just pointing out that, in the position they are in, they are role models. If they don't like it there are plenty other jobs they could do.

Role model is a meaningless term. It's a way of blaming others for the individual's behavior and expecting individuals in highly visible jobs to be better people. Why would anyone think that politicians, entertainers,sportsmen etc are more morally refined than anyone else. The whole idea of role models is nonsense. Many people who have had horrible childhoods or rubbish parents go on a do something with their lives without so called role models.
 
Jul 25, 2011
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King Boonen said:
Just because you don't expect them to be doesn't mean they aren't.

Notice I am not distinguishing between good or bad role models, or saying that they have to be a role model for every attribute of their life, I'm just pointing out that, in the position they are in, they are role models. If they don't like it there are plenty other jobs they could do.

djeez

I don't expect them to be right because it's not their JOB, I don't listen to jimi Hendrix, Queen or whatever thinking about their public function as role model. I don't watch cyclists because of they're obligation as a role model. I don't watch violent movies thinking the actor is doing a pretty bad job of being a role model.

The whole argument that they're all role models because of they're fame is utter rubbish. I don't expect them to be role models because expecting they are is wrong!

If I create something revolutionary tomorrow and get rich & famous, why does that imply getting the role of role model? WHY & what for?

Parent's, relatives, teachers should teach right from wrong. If you can't do this by the time your an adult your lost and probably going to jail sooner or later.

BTW haven't you noticed that a lot of these people are everything BUT good role models? why do you insist they have this function to fulfill?
 
auscyclefan94 said:
I would have to agree with that and I originally thought it was the Europeans who were more politically correct and were sensitive to those jokes.

I think Jane Aubrey has got her knickers in a knot for many reasons:
a) She is a hysterical, politically correct idiot
b) There has been lots of talk in the media in Australia about sexism and misogyny.
c) She wants to make a name for herself, especially amongst feminist circles, so she takes the 'moral high ground' and feels the need to criticise Sagan
Calling a woman "hysterical" because you disagree with her. How novel.

Do you accept that sexism is a thing?
 
Jul 25, 2011
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movingtarget said:
Role model is a meaningless term. It's a way of blaming others for the individual's behavior and expecting individuals in highly visible jobs to be better people. Why would anyone think that politicians, entertainers,sportsmen etc are more morally refined than anyone else. The whole idea of role models is nonsense. Many people who have had horrible childhoods or rubbish parents go on a do something with their lives without so called role models.

Nicely put, much shorter than I could phrase :)
 
wannab said:
djeez

I don't expect them to be right because it's not their JOB, I don't listen to jimi Hendrix, Queen or whatever thinking about their public function as role model. I don't watch cyclists because of they're obligation as a role model. I don't watch violent movies thinking the actor is doing a pretty bad job of being a role model.

The whole argument that they're all role models because of they're fame is utter rubbish. I don't expect them to be role models because expecting they are is wrong!

If I create something revolutionary tomorrow and get rich & famous, why does that imply getting the role of role model? WHY & what for?

Parent's, relatives, teachers should teach right from wrong. If you can't do this by the time your an adult your lost and probably going to jail sooner or later.

BTW haven't you noticed that a lot of these people are everything BUT good role models? why do you insist they have this function to fulfill?

Your example is actually a great example, as yes, you would become a role model to inventors. They would try to find out how you worked, what processors you went through and see if they worked for them.

You don't seem to understand what a role model is. You don't choose to be one, you can't apply for a job as one. You become one because people look up to you and emulate you, it is not your choice.

Role model is not a function to fulfill, as you put it. You don't choose to be one and you don't have to change your behaviour if you think what you are doing is acceptable anymore than you would do anyway.
 
movingtarget said:
Role model is a meaningless term. It's a way of blaming others for the individual's behavior and expecting individuals in highly visible jobs to be better people. Why would anyone think that politicians, entertainers,sportsmen etc are more morally refined than anyone else. The whole idea of role models is nonsense. Many people who have had horrible childhoods or rubbish parents go on a do something with their lives without so called role models.

Err, no it isn't. A role model is someone who is looked up to and whose behaviour is emulated. At no point have I said they are expected to have higher morals than anyone else. I've said that people in these jobs are expected to act professionally.


in fact, I don't think I have even made a link between all role models and morals, because their isn't one.

I have not implied Sagan has to be an ethical role model, he obviously isn't. All I've said is he is a role model because if his position. In this case he is obviously a bad one, just like bad parents, teachers etc.
 
King Boonen said:
you do realise that your moral landscape is almost solely based on that of the role models you had when growing up? Such as parents, relatives, teachers etc. and the morals of those in the past who decided how a civilised society should work.

+1000000000
that's exactly what the current society lacks on behavior & values foundation.

King Boonen said:
They are role models and every single professional sports person knows that when they sign their contract. Their wages are paid by the public, either indirectly through sponsorship or directly through attendance at events, shirt sales etc. They are expected to act professionally. Of course they are only role models when famous, they can't be a role model to someone who hasn't heard of them.

The current problem with high paid athletes is simply the strings attached to their contracts, regardless the source (public, private, mixed etc.) The sponsors "demand" behavior & social appeal that "enhance" their name-never harm or ridicule it in any public or private expression-so in that way- there are clauses written to "ensure" those acts are prevented. having stated that, what we have nowadays are "robots" with millionaire contracts, instead of human Athletes with human virtues, errors & self character.

Bottom line is all these athletes are NOT role models at all-never have & never will-- that BS is the American/Anglo Saxon hypocrisy on matters like this-One Example? Tiger Woods sets the best standard of this-ridiculed, trashed & almost dropped entirely by his sponsors and now that he climbed back up to the top once more-everything is forgotten & cool-even better-with his new girlfriend who publicly condemned him for his affairs, seems now OK with everything;)
 
maltiv said:
Why not compare apples with apples, and say that a podium girl grabbed a rider's butt?

Seriously, no one would care. At all.

Close your eyes. Imagine your one of the poduim "hunks" who are kissing Vos on the chin. Someone grabs your behind and you realize it's the girl who came second. Her name is Tammy Thomas and she has a huge grin on her face. Would you care?
 
Jul 25, 2011
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King Boonen said:
Your example is actually a great example, as yes, you would become a role model to inventors. They would try to find out how you worked, what processors you went through and see if they worked for them.

You don't seem to understand what a role model is. You don't choose to be one, you can't apply for a job as one. You become one because people look up to you and emulate you, it is not your choice.

Role model is not a function to fulfill, as you put it. You don't choose to be one and you don't have to change your behaviour if you think what you are doing is acceptable anymore than you would do anyway.

As we were talking about Sagan and his function as role model concerned by his pinching thus referring to the moral guidance of role models.

Of course you'll be regarded as a role model because of your success. The reason people can make this distinction (e.g. genius musician but total @sshole) proves exactly you don't need to invoke the role model argument when he does something bad.
 
wannab said:
As we were talking about Sagan and his function as role model concerned by his pinching thus referring to the moral guidance of role models.

Of course you'll be regarded as a role model because of your success. The reason people can make this distinction (e.g. genius musician but total @sshole) proves exactly you don't need to invoke the role model argument when he does something bad.

The fact that this discussion and many like it, along with comments on his facebook 'apology', are on going just goes to prove many people can't make the distinction between genius rider but total @rsehole.
 

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