Teams & Riders Pogačar as GOAT: already, never, or when?

[bNator]

It isn't. Are we going to call junior cyclists the GOAT if they completely destroy the opposition?

Let's approach this logically. Let's assume we have this cycling who is going to become the GOAT but at this point in time, we don't know that yet. When does it become justifiable to start mentioning the cyling in the GOAT context? You are mentioning juniors - that is certainly not justifaiable. But surely you will agree it's not unjustifiable until the very moment his palmares actually exceed the previous GOAT's palmares?

So somewhere between his junior years and the moment a rider actually becomes the GOAT it becomes justifiable mentioning he might become the GOAT or come close to it. I think it's not an outrageous expectation for Pog and as a matter of fact - even the current GOAT appears to agree with that.

 

[Vudy]

Because they didn't have someone like Merckx before him.

Bill Russell? Wilt Chamberlain? Ok, back to topic.

 

[Berniece]

Let's approach this logically. Let's assume we have this cycling who is going to become the GOAT but at this point in time, we don't know that yet. When does it become justifiable to start mentioning the cyling in the GOAT context? You are mentioning juniors - that is certainly not justifaiable. But surely you will agree it's not unjustifiable until the very moment his palmares actually exceed the previous GOAT's palmares?

So somewhere between his junior years and the moment a rider actually becomes the GOAT it becomes justifiable mentioning he might become the GOAT or come close to it. I think it's not an outrageous expectation for Pog and as a matter of fact - even the current GOAT appears to agree with that.

I agree that you can say he might become the GOAT. He's racking up an impressive palmares WITH impressive way of winning it. I still want to see him do this against the best riders, which I haven't see him do. The way of winning I mean.

 

[Salvarani]

Let's approach this logically. Let's assume we have this cycling who is going to become the GOAT but at this point in time, we don't know that yet. When does it become justifiable to start mentioning the cyling in the GOAT context? You are mentioning juniors - that is certainly not justifaiable. But surely you will agree it's not unjustifiable until the very moment his palmares actually exceed the previous GOAT's palmares?

So somewhere between his junior years and the moment a rider actually becomes the GOAT it becomes justifiable mentioning he might become the GOAT or come close to it. I think it's not an outrageous expectation for Pog and as a matter of fact - even the current GOAT appears to agree with that.

It is funny that he mentioned "juniors" when that is exactly what he himself was a part of doing, with a rider who has failed to live up to those expectations. Someone better came along and done what he was supposed to do. They just seem hurt about it.

Pog is the GOAT and acting/riding/winning like it. It is just fun also. People got a problem with it should just stay clear and let other enjoy it, which seems to be their biggest issue in this tedious/on-going discussion.

 

[bNator]

I agree that you can say he might become the GOAT. He's racking up an impressive palmares WITH impressive way of winning it. I still want to see him do this against the best riders, which I haven't see him do. The way of winning I mean.

Well it's a long way to go and a lot of stuff to do. If Vingegaard keeps beating him regularly at TdF for instance then I don't think Pog will reach GOAT status. If he manages to start winning TdF at the expense of classics, again no GOAT status.

Basically, he needs to start winning TdF while keep winning classics at the same rate and keep this for what, 5 years? It's a giant task.

 

[Berniece]

Well it's a long way to go and a lot of stuff to do. If Vingegaard keeps beating him regularly at TdF for instance then I don't think Pog will reach GOAT status. If he manages to start winning TdF at the expense of classics, again no GOAT status.

Basically, he needs to start winning TdF while keep winning classics at the same rate and keep this for what, 5 years? It's a giant task.

Yes it's a giant task, because otherwise you can't be called the GOAT. To be called the GOAT you need to do GOAT things, the current GOAT did that. If he wants to follow in those footsteps he'll need to do the same. Win classics, and the TDF in the same year, and some year also take on another GT, and the WC.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Chris Horner trying to stir the pot too

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-J5D3p9MVM

I agree that if big 4 would be in this race then the race dynamics on stage 15 would be different. And in such case i agree that UAE, the current Giro team, wouldn't be able to make big enough selection that far from the finish line. As realistically even with this field there indeed were still a lot of riders in the bunch, reduction was not that great prior to the Pogi going for it.

P.S. As for the GOAT debates, currently Pogi is the lineal GOAT as the GOAT hand picked him, not much else one can do about it. Still if Rogla beats him at the Tour, that cements Rogla as stage racing GOAT, so there is that. Plenty of opportunities involved and a privilege to have such competition to race against. Furthermore if Rogla stomps Pogi at the Tour that indicates Merckx would get stomped too. Easily. We wouldn't have badger but marten ... And things like that.

 

[Salvarani]

Pog = GOAT

 

[The fridge in the blue trees]

I agree that you can say he might become the GOAT. He's racking up an impressive palmares WITH impressive way of winning it. I still want to see him do this against the best riders, which I haven't see him do. The way of winning I mean.

TdF 20 doesn't qualify? That TT....
TdF 21 doesn't qualify? We saw after that what an animal this Vingegaard is. Dropped him by minutes. And Carapaz (who at the time could have been regarded as number 3 stage racer in the world, after Pogacar and Roglic. Roglic crashed out, yes. So he needed to be there? Maybe we should start analyzing the start lists when Merckx won his races... no Gimondi, then doesn't count
Flanders 23 doesn't qualify?
Lombardia 23 doesn't qualify?

Just because you haven't seen him do it, doesn't mean he didn't do it. You either simply aren't watching the right races or don't understand what you're seeing.

 

[Berniece]

TdF 20 doesn't qualify? That TT....
TdF 21 doesn't qualify? We saw after that what an animal this Vingegaard is. Dropped him by minutes. And Carapaz (who at the time could have been regarded as number 3 stage racer in the world, after Pogacar and Roglic. Roglic crashed out, yes. So he needed to be there? Maybe we should start analyzing the start lists when Merckx won his races... no Gimondi, then doesn't count
Flanders 23 doesn't qualify?
Lombardia 23 doesn't qualify?

Just because you haven't seen him do it, doesn't mean he didn't do it. You either simply aren't watching the right races or don't understand what you're seeing.

I've watched them all, and I understand it perfectly fine. How was TDF20 and 21 the same as TDF 22 and 23? Vingegaard is WAY stronger now than he was back then.

Did he win Flanders 23 like he won Strade this year? No, he gapped MVDP, and won by 16s. I found it impressive, but let's not compare it to Merckx in Flanders 1969 please.

 

[Salvarani]

Lets not compare a junior to Merckx either.

 

[The fridge in the blue trees]

I've watched them all, and I understand it perfectly fine. How was TDF20 and 21 the same as TDF 22 and 23? Vingegaard is WAY stronger now than he was back then.

Did he win Flanders 23 like he won Strade this year? No, he gapped MVDP, and won by 16s. I found it impressive, but let's not compare it to Merckx in Flanders 1969 please.

Damn, we just had an earthquake here. Pretty big... Oh no, it wasn't an earthquake, it was just the goalposts moving!

So it isn't about beating the best in impressive fashion, but doing better than Merckx 69! Why didn't you just say so from the start. GOAT=Hinault then I guess? Liège 80!

 

[Berniece]

Damn, we just had an earthquake here. Pretty big... Oh no, it wasn't an earthquake, it was just the goalposts moving!

So it isn't about beating the best in impressive fashion, but doing better than Merckx 69! Why didn't you just say so from the start. GOAT=Hinault then I guess? Liège 80!

See the first quote you made of me, I clearly wrote:

"He's racking up an impressive palmares WITH impressive way of winning it."

What do you think is an impressive win? Beating MVDP by 16s, or his Strade Bianche win? For me it's the latter, but that wasn't against proper competition. I still find his Giro impressive, but again this isn't against Vingegaard.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Define proper competition.
I think Pogi and the like are riding against much pros and budget and physician racked teams than Merckx was. Although the trope "riding against farmers" is a joke, it's not far off.
This is why Pogacar, if he continues on the same path, might in fact be the GOAT although with an inferior palmares.

PS:
You must be trolling if you're stating that winning by 16s against an in form MVDP is not impressive. No one besides Pogacar did it.

 

[Forever The Best]

Yes it's a giant task, because otherwise you can't be called the GOAT. To be called the GOAT you need to do GOAT things, the current GOAT did that. If he wants to follow in those footsteps he'll need to do the same. Win classics, and the TDF in the same year, and some year also take on another GT, and the WC.

Obviously not as good as Merckx's best years, but 2021 he won Tour, Liege and Lombardia. He also won Tirreno, and finished 3rd in OGRR and Pais Vasco. And won some other smaller races.

 

[bNator]

See the first quote you made of me, I clearly wrote:

"He's racking up an impressive palmares WITH impressive way of winning it."

What do you think is an impressive win? Beating MVDP by 16s, or his Strade Bianche win? For me it's the latter, but that wasn't against proper competition. I still find his Giro impressive, but again this isn't against Vingegaard.

These are some conflicting criteria you've got there. What is it then - beating strong competition or beating weaker competition by big margin? I guess beating strong competition by a big margin...

But then again - how do you know Merckx didn't just beat weak competition all the time? Imagine MvdP and Vinge never decide to do cycling when they were kids. It could very easily have happened... What then? Would someone else be as good as they are? Maybe not. Maybe Pog is all we would have had now. Winning all the grand tours and monuments with ease. Having 2 more Tours and one more MSR and RVV on his palmares. GOAT, no doubt...

What I'm trying to say is: what you see with Pog is clearly impressive and he doesn't need to beat anyone specific for it to be impressive. Ok he didn't win Giro against Vingegaard - but neither did Merckx, did he? He can't be regarded as GOAT if he doesn't win a couple of more TdFs because that's just the way it is. But he doesn't need to beat Vingegaard to be regarded as one.

 

[SHAD0W93]

He's currently boating for 4-5 years in the UCI rankings.
GOAT is a statement about the present and the future palmares of Pogacar.

That’s not how claiming someone is the GOAT works, that’s BOAT. You can say he can become the GOAT if he keeps this up but what you described is the BOAT.

 

[Berniece]

What I'm trying to say is: what you see with Pog is clearly impressive and he doesn't need to beat anyone specific for it to be impressive. Ok he didn't win Giro against Vingegaard - but neither did Merckx, did he? He can't be regarded as GOAT if he doesn't win a couple of more TdFs because that's just the way it is. But he doesn't need to beat Vingegaard to be regarded as one.

Merckx won against the best of his generation and destroyed them

 

[Salvarani]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1792970735821951059

View: https://x.com/CafeRoubaix/status/1792970735821951059

GOAT

 

[Lorzenz08]

THE CANIBAL

 

[Salvarani]

It’s kind of ludicrous how far superior he is to the rest of this GC field that every time he has attacked on an actual mountain he has immediately opened a gap that was never closed.

If Martínez has an off day tomorrow or Grappa on Saturday then Pogi will win by 10 minutes without even needing to put in another real effort.

He is the GOAT, so he makes it look easy but there is a lot of hard work behind it. Make no mistake.

 

[snipeheem]

2 GT's, 2 monuments (Liege, Lombardia) and the WC would be a season we won't see soon again

Greatest season ever by the greatest cyclist ever

 

[Berniece]

Greatest season ever by the greatest cyclist ever

You guys should really check how Merckx rode some seasons.

 

[Salvarani]

Greatest season ever by the greatest cyclist ever

It truly would be. No comparison.

 

[Elos Anjos]

How about you don't immediately feel attacked when someone disagrees with you? Keep it about the topic, instead of making it personal.

I'm just saying that as long as you don't have the palmares, you can't be called the GOAT. Not to mention this GOAT wasn't even able to win the TDF the past 2 years. Maybe start with winning that this year, and thus the double, before even being remotely mentioned in the same sentence as Merckx.


Because they didn't have someone like Merckx before him.

I didn't. But I'm demanding with the arguments presented. Namely when you make ludicrous counter examples like winning junior racings or distancing MVDP in RVV by merely 16s. That's a bit insulting when one is trying to argue.

Again: when anyone (like me) calls Pogacar a GOAT it doesn't mean he is actually the GOAT, but a statement about 1) his potential as given by his current palmares to 2) actually be the GOAT in the near future. You can attribute the GOAT status to anyone rider but if his palmares doesn't back it, your belief is not well grounded.

So of course "Pogacar is the GOAT" is a statement about future prospects that can thus prove to be false, either because:
1) he's not actually GOAT material
2) because someone better came along
3) he will have an accident
4) he will be unlucky
5 he will begin to fade.