Teams & Riders Pogačar as GOAT: already, never, or when?

[Peyroteo94]

He is on track to be considered among greats of this sport. I hope that he will have long and injury free career as he is exciting rider to watch (at least in my books).

I would just wait with GOAT debates until all is said and done any simply enjoy each of his performances. There will be enough time to discuss where he ranks with all time greats once he finishes his career.

They are obviously talking about talent. I was a huge fan of Contador, Lance, Boonen, Bettini, Vino, Cav and one thing I can say, no one but literally not a single one of these legends are even close to Pogacar if we combine talent, panache, charisma and palmares. Not a single one! This is like seeing Messi or Cristiano in football, we knew since their early 20's, they would be top3 all time footballers (unless something bad happened). Pogacar is in that category in cycling. Only a crash can hamper him from winning 10 monuments, 10 GT's and at least 1 WC or 1 OC.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

They are obviously talking about talent. I was a huge fan of Contador, Lance, Boonen, Bettini, Vino, Cav and one thing I can say, no one but literally not a single one of these legends are even close to Pogacar if we combine talent, panache, charisma and palmares. Not a single one! This is like seeing Messi or Cristiano in football, we knew since their early 20's, they would be top3 all time footballers (unless something bad happened). Pogacar is in that category in cycling. Only a crash can hamper him from winning 10 monuments, 10 GT's and at least 1 WC or 1 OC.

I agree that he's the best cyclist I've watched in last 2-3 decades. However, 10 GTs is a stretch - he was on pace maybe in 2021 but afterwards Vingegaard took away two TdF titles (and in the future can win more GTs against Pog). I would say 7 GTs seems a more realistic prediction now.

 

[Miha81]

They are obviously talking about talent. I was a huge fan of Contador, Lance, Boonen, Bettini, Vino, Cav and one thing I can say, no one but literally not a single one of these legends are even close to Pogacar if we combine talent, panache, charisma and palmares. Not a single one! This is like seeing Messi or Cristiano in football, we knew since their early 20's, they would be top3 all time footballers (unless something bad happened). Pogacar is in that category in cycling. Only a crash can hamper him from winning 10 monuments, 10 GT's and at least 1 WC or 1 OC.

Talent has nothing to do with GOAT status. Nobody gets this status on "woulda, coulda, shoulda". That is why those comparisons should be done once all is said and done (and even then is hard to compare riders from different eras).

After 2021 TDF I thought he will easily win a few of them (and he most likely would if Vingegaard would not emerged) but he was put through the dry spell regarding GT's for almost 3 years. On the other hand I did not expected him to become such an "allround monster".

Call me old fashioned but I can not understand the constant need for this hype and comparisons between greats of present and past. Let Pogi's results speak for themselves.

And as Slovenian I thoroughly enjoy this time we have not one but two world class GC riders in the peloton at the same time. Probably won't happen again for my life time.

 

[snipeheem]

Talent has nothing to do with GOAT status. Nobody gets this status on "woulda, coulda, shoulda". That is why those comparisons should be done once all is said and done (and even then is hard to compare riders from different eras).

After 2021 TDF I thought he will easily win a few of them (and he most likely would if Vingegaard would not emerged) but he was put through the dry spell regarding GT's for almost 3 years. On the other hand I did not expected him to become such an "allround monster".

Call me old fashioned but I can not understand the constant need for this hype and comparisons between greats of present and past. Let Pogi's result speak for themselves.

And as Slovenian I thoroughly enjoy this time we have not one but two world class GC riders in the peloton at the same time. Probably won't happen again for my life time.

Talent has everything with Goat status. 21 yr old messi was called the goat, Jordan was called the goat when he has 0 championship. The hell wayne gretzky was called the goat when he was 12 yr old

 

[Miha81]

Talent has everything with Goat status. 21 yr old messi was called the goat, Jordan was called the goat when he has 0 championship. The hell wayne gretzky was called the goat when he was 12 yr old

Ahh, come on. GOAT status is earned through results and if you don't get the job done all the talent in the world is worthless. Ever heard name of Len Bias? And there are thousands Len's in different sports whose careers are cut short from one reasons or another. No lack of talent but also no results

 

[snipeheem]

Ahh, come on. GOAT status is earned through results and if you don't get the job done all the talent in the world is worthless. Ever heard name of Len Bias? And there are thousands Len's in different sports whose careers are cut short from one reasons or another. No lack of talent but also no results

Len Bias never debut in NBA, he wasnt even the first pick in draft

 

[Sciatic]

Ahh, come on. GOAT status is earned through results and if you don't get the job done all the talent in the world is worthless. Ever heard name of Len Bias? And there are thousands Len's in different sports whose careers are cut short from one reasons or another. No lack of talent but also no results

I don’t know why this discussion keeps happening. In today’s sports landscape fans shout “GOAT” whenever an athlete does a few specular results/ plays, even though they’ve done little else. It’s ubiquitous use has drained the relevance out of the term.

As was mentioned in a previous thread on this topic, it’s now just something for fans to shout in that braggadocio type of excitement, similar to shouting “You da’ man!”

 

[velaso montador]

I don’t know why this discussion keeps happening. In today’s sports landscape fans shout “GOAT” whenever an athlete does a few specular results/ plays, even though they’ve done little else. It’s ubiquitous use has drained the relevance out of the term.

As was mentioned in a previous thread on this topic, it’s now just something for fans to shout in that braggadocio type of excitement, similar to shouting “You da’ man!”

"Pog is on G.O.A.T status" - Geraint Thomas puts Tadej Pogacar on a par with legendary Eddy Merckx

After another incredible performance from Tadej Pogacar last weekend saw the Slovenian romp to victory at Liege-Bastogne-Liege, praise has been flying in from all parts. One of those who sees Pogacar'...

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I just took two links coulda taken 20 more from the giro where either cyclist bring it up or commentators, legends etc etc i lost count after a while so clearly something which is discussed outside here too.

That legends and cyclist talk about him in those terms already - for me speaks more volume than me or somone else random on a forum for the records I dont think personally he is the goat yet either far to young and things to accomplish, in my opinion only). That beeing said it happens in sports landscapes in general from time to time, but not for a very long time in cycling untill now and not from me but from profiles in cycling clearly.

I agree however in general terms.

 

[Extinction]

As far as Pogi is the GOAT is concerned, he needs three times the double and several Paris-Roubaix, plus a plethora of MSR, the Vuelta and 3 Worlds. Too much for modern cycling. Well, that's what he's up against.

 

[ice&fire]

As far as Pogi is the GOAT is concerned, he needs three times the double and several Paris-Roubaix, plus a plethora of MSR, the Vuelta and Worlds. Too much for modern cycling. Well, that's what he's up against.

Changing the date when "all time" started will make it easier

 

[velaso montador]

As far as Pogi is the GOAT is concerned, he needs three times the double and several Paris-Roubaix, plus a plethora of MSR, the Vuelta and Worlds. Too much for modern cycling. Well, that's what he's up against.

Different times and cycling is far more advanced and specialized now then the old days back then so its not that black and white tho i agree its a stupid comparison anyway. Hes the modern day Merckx easiest way to say no matter if it hurts ppl or not. Ppl will always have their preference based on emotional/nostalgic reasons too no matter what sport thats all fine.

I agree with the likes of Gilbert, Contador, Thomas and pretty much everyone else ive heard recently put him in the same chair as Merckx already not saying hes greater just different times.

Sorry if I take those ppl words more serious than yours

 

[snipeheem]

As far as Pogi is the GOAT is concerned, he needs three times the double and several Paris-Roubaix, plus a plethora of MSR, the Vuelta and 3 Worlds. Too much for modern cycling. Well, that's what he's up against.

So Jordan need 5 more titles , lebron needs 7 more titles. Funny because these are 2 greatest players according to anybody who knows something about basketball

 

[Extinction]

So Jordan need 5 more titles , lebron needs 7 more titles. Funny because these are 2 greatest players according to anybody who knows something about basketball

Different sport. So comparisons are moot. And I'm aware of the evolution, but until Tadej beats top Vingegaard at the Tour he is still second best today. The past is history and, like it or not, Merckx owns it. You'd have to time warp Pogacar to the late 60s early 70s to know and, vice versa, Merckx to the 2020s, but this is impossible, so only the stats are relevant.

 

[ppanther92]

Different sport. So comparisons are moot. And I'm aware of the evolution, but until Tadej beats top Vingegaard at the Tour he is still second best today. The past is history and, like it or not, Merckx owns it.

Why would the argument "different sport" count for basketball and not for cycling?

And saying that Vingegaard is the best cyclist currently is just absurd. The following shows who is the number 1 (hint: its not Vingegaard).

 

[Extinction]

Why would the argument "different sport" count for basketball and not for cycling?

And saying that Vingegaard is the best cyclist currently is just absurd. The following shows who is the number 1 (hint: its not Vingegaard).

Why not? He lost the last two Tours.

 

[Extinction]

The number one is the Tour winner, which hasn't been Pogi for two years.

 

[Netserk]

Why would the argument "different sport" count for basketball and not for cycling?

And saying that Vingegaard is the best cyclist currently is just absurd. The following shows who is the number 1 (hint: its not Vingegaard).

Was Valverde the best rider of the 2010's?

 

[QueenStagiaire]

The number one is the Tour winner, which hasn't been Pogi for two years.

Was Cadel Evans the number one in cycling in 2011 or was Gilbert better?

 

[snipeheem]

Why not? He lost the last two Tours.

No way bro , tadej is the best u know it

 

[ppanther92]

The number one is the Tour winner, which hasn't been Pogi for two years.

Oscar Pereiro

 

[ppanther92]

Was Valverde the best rider of the 2010's?

Some would say yes.

 

[bNator]

The number one is the Tour winner, which hasn't been Pogi for two years.

This is a lazy argument. Vingegaard probably not being in shape, if god forbid anything happens to Pog during the Tour, will we have a new number one rider of the current crop? And since one might be tempted to make an exemption to your rule due to circumstances for this particular case - anything can be a circumstance, including winning a bunch of classics (and breaking your wrist while doing it).

 

[Elos Anjos]

The number one is the Tour winner, which hasn't been Pogi for two years.

Of course he is not. This argument has been debunked ad nauseam.

 

[how yes no?]

You'd have to time warp Pogacar to the late 60s early 70s to know and, vice versa, Merckx to the 2020s, but this is impossible, so only the stats are relevant.

The number one is the Tour winner, which hasn't been Pogi for two years.

Without arguing with the content of your statements itself, I'd like to point to their inherent contradiction.
You can't claim only stats are relevant and in the next post dismiss the only officially agreed stats on cyclist rankings.
You can say these are the wrong stats, but then we lose objective grounds for comparison and we're back to the point where you claimed only stats are relevant, because we can't compare cyclist with other (subjective?) measures.

Now if we go into the content... There were some multi (more than 2) tour winners in the last decades. For none of them has there ever been a debate (even thoughts of comparisons were shunned upon) how do they rank compared to Mercx, then Pogačar arrived and put the debate on the table, where we are now.
This goes to indicate, that tour wins are not be-all end-all in this discussions. There are numerous other things, for example like the nationality... if Remco was from Slovenia, his thread name would never mention Mercx (even as a joke)... We have cycling legends from Italian history that never even started the tour, etc...
So what actually matters with regards to how something is written in history (that then still has a life of its own) is how people at the time (subjectively) perceive it, and there are quite some people who see Pogačar as a possible challenger to the goat status when all is said and done.
Maybe instead of trying to prove them wrong with some (quasi - by your subjective measures selected) objective stats, you should try to consider why do they think this way. When you will understand their point of view and still be sure they are wrong, you will at least have much better understanding of how (many) people think (in a more general sense than just cycling-goat debates).

 

[Nick2413]

I think calling Pogacar the goat in 2024 assumes he will continue his dominance for at least a few more years. He’s probably on track for it, however sustained dominance over a long period of time is essential to that kind of title.

The kind of palmares of Merckx may not be possible anymore, but on the other hand we also are seeing less parity among top riders currently - whether that is due to pure talent or a myriad of other factors is up for debate. We should keep in mind only a handful of European countries make up the majority of the pro peloton - there could be any number of countries out there with genetic specimens that will annihilate the performances we’re seeing today in another decade or two, making Pogacar look the equivalent of a farmer.

He has lost the most important race 2 times in a row, the only 2 times his top rival was team leader. I don’t think that can be ignored in a ranking like this. He’s obviously the best all around rider in the world, but I still don’t know if he can get the title today.