Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fair?

[oncehadhair]

Re: Re:

There are many right or wrong ways to win or to lose, yet in the end, the legend of cycling is that they happen and you have to live with it : Ocana falls in a ditch, Fignon's saddle sore and the triathlete position allow Lemond to win for 8 seconds, Schlek's chain just pops, etc etc etc.. Some victories are hollistic à la Merckx obliterating the field, some seem like the result of a coincidence, the wind going that way not the other, a tiny shard of glass precisely there on the road on that day at that hour.

Unpredictability is the glory of this sport, it's pulse. That's why raod cycling is so rich, has so much texture : It doesn't take place on a sterile environment, a pitch or court or track, a place bound and contained, protected and regulated. It takes place on the road, in that open air, in the rain and the sleet, under the blistering sun, on that perfectly smooth rolling road or that quasi gravel goat path, people are their shouting and encouraging, sometimes insulting and spitting, the cyclist remains an adventurer because he ventures on the road, on the open space. Sometimes epic adventures are derailed by the tiniest of incidents. This is part of road cycling. Take it away and the sport dies, it isn't the same anymore.

Excellent post, you have captured the essence of road cycling in words. Chapeau sir!

Yes but totally missed the point of the upset over Porte. Most people can cop the flat and the time it cost Porte but are pi33ed off over the inconsistent application of the rules.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re:

Just a question but is stopping on the right side of the road the same in races in all countries or does it depend on which side of the road is used in the country in question?

In Australia support is conducted on the left whenever possible.

However in this case, the nature of the incident (hitting a man hole cover) simply meant Porte and Clarke ended up on the left side, and crossing back over was likely not much of an option with the race and race convoy coming through.

 

[Carols]

Re: Re:

No one has provided even one example of a wheel given by a different team in a WT race Not being enforced. It seems it is Always enforced. Time to move on.

Garmin mechanics gave Geraint Thomas mechanical assistance at Flanders a couple of years ago. There is a picture on Twitter. Sky gave Meersman a wheel in this Giro last week. Do we actually know if that breaches rules or is it simply the riders themselves who aren't allowed to give assistance to a rider from another team?

This was a rider on another team, different scenario. And as Joe Papp says it is enforced even at the 2.2 level. I have no idea if other team cars/staff can do it and that isn't what happened here.

All the 'isn't fair' crew will just keep whining and carrying on and will not bother to listen to reason (Porte most likely would have lost more than the 47 seconds while he waited for his car, so Yes it was to his time advantage to take it) or read the rules. They want to stay aggrieved and cry about it. Let them wallow in their own misery, I'm done with this thread .

 

[JRanton]

Re: Re:

Does it not strike us as a pretty terrible indictment of modern cycling that many who are in support of Porte believe we have been "robbed" of a three way battle because of a 2 minute penalty? 2 minutes is nothing. It's easily recoverable. There's a 60km time trial and at least three high mountain stages to come.

Or do none of you believe in Porte? Was his strategy really going to be to Leipheimer his way to glory? Does he really have no backup option when he loses time? He's been winning mountain stages on the road this season, not just doing the Indurain template. Do the GC guys really need to ride in formation and only feud over occasional seconds so much so that 2 minutes is considered an unrecoverable time loss?

Contador, Heras, Landis, Basso, Schleck and Sella all disagree.

Compared to Aru and Contador, Porte was simply following wheels leading up to his mishap. Where Aru and Contador put in digs on occasion to distant their rivals, Porte had been content to simply respond to attacks, giving the impression that he was either just saving his energies till the 3rd week, to then become aggressive and/or he was banking on his belief that his superiority versus the clock would distance him from his gc opponents, so there was no need to gain time before that. Even with the disappointing Sky performance in the ttt, there still was no sense of urgency in his riding.

Porte's attacked as many times as Contador in this race so far. Twice.

 

[Carols]

Re: Re:

Does it not strike us as a pretty terrible indictment of modern cycling that many who are in support of Porte believe we have been "robbed" of a three way battle because of a 2 minute penalty? 2 minutes is nothing. It's easily recoverable. There's a 60km time trial and at least three high mountain stages to come.

Or do none of you believe in Porte? Was his strategy really going to be to Leipheimer his way to glory? Does he really have no backup option when he loses time? He's been winning mountain stages on the road this season, not just doing the Indurain template. Do the GC guys really need to ride in formation and only feud over occasional seconds so much so that 2 minutes is considered an unrecoverable time loss?

Contador, Heras, Landis, Basso, Schleck and Sella all disagree.

Compared to Aru and Contador, Porte was simply following wheels leading up to his mishap. Where Aru and Contador put in digs on occasion to distant their rivals, Porte had been content to simply respond to attacks, giving the impression that he was either just saving his energies till the 3rd week, to then become aggressive and/or he was banking on his belief that his superiority versus the clock would distance him from his gc opponents, so there was no need to gain time before that. Even with the disappointing Sky performance in the ttt, there still was no sense of urgency in his riding.

Porte's attacked as many times as Contador in this race so far. Twice.

It should be easier when you haven't dislocated your shoulder. Just saying......now I'm gone.

 

[JRanton]

Re: Re:

No one has provided even one example of a wheel given by a different team in a WT race Not being enforced. It seems it is Always enforced. Time to move on.

Garmin mechanics gave Geraint Thomas mechanical assistance at Flanders a couple of years ago. There is a picture on Twitter. Sky gave Meersman a wheel in this Giro last week. Do we actually know if that breaches rules or is it simply the riders themselves who aren't allowed to give assistance to a rider from another team?

This was a rider on another team, different scenario. And as Joe Papp says it is enforced even at the 2.2 level. I have no idea if other team cars/staff can do it and that isn't the what happened.

All the 'isn't fair' crew will just keep whining and carrying on and will not bother to listen to reason (Porte most likely would have lost more than the 47 seconds while he waited for his car, so Yes it was to his time advantage to take it) or read the rules. They want to stay aggrieved and cry about it. Let them wallow in their own misery, I'm done with this thread .

How is it exactly a different scenario? It's somebody from another team giving mechanical assistance to a rider from another team. The only difference is that it wasn't rider to rider assistance?

 

[JRanton]

Re: Re:

Does it not strike us as a pretty terrible indictment of modern cycling that many who are in support of Porte believe we have been "robbed" of a three way battle because of a 2 minute penalty? 2 minutes is nothing. It's easily recoverable. There's a 60km time trial and at least three high mountain stages to come.

Or do none of you believe in Porte? Was his strategy really going to be to Leipheimer his way to glory? Does he really have no backup option when he loses time? He's been winning mountain stages on the road this season, not just doing the Indurain template. Do the GC guys really need to ride in formation and only feud over occasional seconds so much so that 2 minutes is considered an unrecoverable time loss?

Contador, Heras, Landis, Basso, Schleck and Sella all disagree.

Compared to Aru and Contador, Porte was simply following wheels leading up to his mishap. Where Aru and Contador put in digs on occasion to distant their rivals, Porte had been content to simply respond to attacks, giving the impression that he was either just saving his energies till the 3rd week, to then become aggressive and/or he was banking on his belief that his superiority versus the clock would distance him from his gc opponents, so there was no need to gain time before that. Even with the disappointing Sky performance in the ttt, there still was no sense of urgency in his riding.

Porte's attacked as many times as Contador in this race so far. Twice.

It should be easier when you haven't dislocated your shoulder. Just saying......now I'm gone.

Ah yes, because he's clearly been massively affected by that ''dislocation''. His first attack in the race when he wasn't ''injured'' was easily dealt with by Porte.

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

A much more problematic rule, again, would be the one about riders pushing riders. It is a clear DQ, but it is, to my knowledge, never enforced.I guess you could say it has been nullified by precedent in a way as to make it almost unenforceable.

The sanction for pushing a member of another team in a stage race is 200CHF + 10-second penalty.

DQ only applies to a second offence or on final stage.

Yeah, 12.1.040 (11.3.2) seems to say that, and I would seem to stand corrected, though this makes it less than completely clear:

2.3.012 All riders may render each other such minor services as lending or exchanging food,
drink, spanners or accessories.
The lending or exchanging of tubular tyres or bicycles and waiting for a rider who has been dropped or involved in an accident shall be permitted only amongst riders of the same team. The pushing of one rider by another shall in all cases be forbidden, on pain of disqualification.

Enforcement seems spotty to non-existent regardless. Porte and Clarke weren't docked the extra 10" either, AFAIK.

 

[oncehadhair]

Re: Re:

Just remind me how many times this has been an issue in the past? I understand these are the big issues for the sport!

Look what do you want me to say ? Is this rule "a key issue for the sport" ? No I don't think so no, but it exists and it exists for a reason. It is damn unfortunate Porte put himself in such a situation by just panicking and acting completely braindead in the face of what is classic cycling occurence : a flat tire as the peloton rides fast away from you. It has happened to all greats but they haven't made a total mess out of it like HE did. HE parked on the left side so was missed by his car. HE took his mate's wheel, forgetting for a while that "hey maybe I should take my teammate's rather than my homie's from another team". HE made a mess out of something so mundane and ordinary.

Had he managed that with a modicum of intelligence, he would have lost 30 seconds and be done with it. He lost close to 3 minutes because of his blunders. Let's not make the rules the culprit here ok ? Sometimes rule are not very clever or very fair or whatever, but they are there and as other and I have said, there have been examples in the past of that rule being applied in the exact same way (Tour de l'Avenir 2009, Romain Sicard). That it doesn't happen that often is a testament to riders' intelligence and ability to PROPERLY do a wheel change when need be. For Porte to mess up such a trivial incident is in itself inexcusable when you pretend to be a GT winner.

No need to delve into a meta debate about fairness and the spirit of the law.

All right expert so why aren't the same penalties applied when a cyclist from another team takes food or water (or rain vest) as has happened in this race.

No one is arguing about the flat - which is part of racing, or banging on about Porte's stupidity (apart from you), or the fact that the rule is there.

The upset is due to the inconsistent application of the rules. The fact that you have to go back to 2009 to find the last recorded application of the rule proves it.

 

[myrideissteelerthanyours]

Re: Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fai

In a typical stage race the rulebook is usually treated like toilet paper especially for riders who crash and puncture. I think thats why this penalization has seemed so shocking.

I am curious about the legal definition of pushing. Does that include doing that madison slingshot move?

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

The upset is due to the inconsistent application of the rules. The fact that you have to go back to 2009 to find the last recorded application of the rule proves it.

Or it proves riders are rarely this stupid...

 

[JRanton]

Re: Re:

The upset is due to the inconsistent application of the rules. The fact that you have to go back to 2009 to find the last recorded application of the rule proves it.

Or it proves riders are rarely this stupid...

If you read Porte's explanation of what happened, it doesn't actually seem that stupid.

 

[Tonton]

Re: Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fai

I don't see the issue here. There's a rule. Period. The "but the other guy didn't get penalized" excuse reminds me of what a guy who got pulled over would argue. Cops arrest drivers for speeding; not everybody gets caught. But if you get caught, there's a price to pay. With today's technology, getting caught is more likely than it used to be, i.e. Tiger Woods' drop at last year's Masters. But it doesn't change the only fact that really matters: there's a rule, it was enforced.

 

[sartoris]

Taking a wheel from a rider of another team? stupid thing to do.... Maybe he envisaged it as a marginal gain. But what really baffles me is ... where were his teammates at that crucial moment of the stage?

 

[damian13ster]

Well, we should see new tactics in racing then
Every time a GC contender punctures, teammates of his opponents stay behind and start pacing him whether he likes it or not
All involved riders get 2' penalty, and more if they catch the same guy twice

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

All right expert so why aren't the same penalties applied when a cyclist from another team takes food or water (or rain vest) as has happened in this race.

No one is arguing about the flat - which is part of racing, or banging on about Porte's stupidity (apart from you), or the fact that the rule is there.

The upset is due to the inconsistent application of the rules. The fact that you have to go back to 2009 to find the last recorded application of the rule proves it.

The same penalties aren't applied when a rider from another team takes food or water, because the rule specifically states that riders are allowed to exchange minor services such as food or water, but mechanical assistance is not permitted, with the penalty for this to be a time penalty of 2 minutes.

So the same penalties aren't applied in the circumstances you mention because nobody broke any rules. Where Clarke offered mechanical assistance to Porte, rules were broken, so the penalty was applied.

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

All right expert so why aren't the same penalties applied when a cyclist from another team takes food or water (or rain vest) as has happened in this race.

No one is arguing about the flat - which is part of racing, or banging on about Porte's stupidity (apart from you), or the fact that the rule is there.

The upset is due to the inconsistent application of the rules. The fact that you have to go back to 2009 to find the last recorded application of the rule proves it.

The same penalties aren't applied when a rider from another team takes food or water, because the rule specifically states that riders are allowed to exchange minor services such as food or water, but mechanical assistance is not permitted, with the penalty for this to be a time penalty of 2 minutes.

So the same penalties aren't applied in the circumstances you mention because nobody broke any rules. Where Clarke offered mechanical assistance to Porte, rules were broken, so the penalty was applied.

Anglo fans, I disagree with you, but I understand you. After all, 102 years later, we French still remember the 1913 TdF and Eugene Christophe.

 

[oncehadhair]

Re: Re:

If rules are always applied without fear or favour, why don't they burn all the riders who broke the rules at the railway crossing at Roubaix?

Because that was a different jury

Aren't these races all under the UCI umbrella?

Yes, but the head of the jury at the Giro is particularly strict.

Sometimes.

 

[Tyre Byter]

Re: Re:

All right expert so why aren't the same penalties applied when a cyclist from another team takes food or water (or rain vest) as has happened in this race.

No one is arguing about the flat - which is part of racing, or banging on about Porte's stupidity (apart from you), or the fact that the rule is there.

The upset is due to the inconsistent application of the rules. The fact that you have to go back to 2009 to find the last recorded application of the rule proves it.

The same penalties aren't applied when a rider from another team takes food or water, because the rule specifically states that riders are allowed to exchange minor services such as food or water, but mechanical assistance is not permitted, with the penalty for this to be a time penalty of 2 minutes.

So the same penalties aren't applied in the circumstances you mention because nobody broke any rules. Where Clarke offered mechanical assistance to Porte, rules were broken, so the penalty was applied.

Anglo fans, I disagree with you, but I understand you. After all, 102 years later, we French still remember the 1913 TdF and Eugene Christophe.

Will Lil' Richie be remembered in the year 2117?

 

[oncehadhair]

Re: Re:

All right expert so why aren't the same penalties applied when a cyclist from another team takes food or water (or rain vest) as has happened in this race.

No one is arguing about the flat - which is part of racing, or banging on about Porte's stupidity (apart from you), or the fact that the rule is there.

The upset is due to the inconsistent application of the rules. The fact that you have to go back to 2009 to find the last recorded application of the rule proves it.

The same penalties aren't applied when a rider from another team takes food or water, because the rule specifically states that riders are allowed to exchange minor services such as food or water, but mechanical assistance is not permitted, with the penalty for this to be a time penalty of 2 minutes.

So the same penalties aren't applied in the circumstances you mention because nobody broke any rules. Where Clarke offered mechanical assistance to Porte, rules were broken, so the penalty was applied.

Anglo fans, I disagree with you, but I understand you. After all, 102 years later, we French still remember the 1913 TdF and Eugene Christophe.

Will Lil' Richie be remembered in the year 2117?

He will now.

 

[oncehadhair]

Re: Re:

All right expert so why aren't the same penalties applied when a cyclist from another team takes food or water (or rain vest) as has happened in this race.

No one is arguing about the flat - which is part of racing, or banging on about Porte's stupidity (apart from you), or the fact that the rule is there.

The upset is due to the inconsistent application of the rules. The fact that you have to go back to 2009 to find the last recorded application of the rule proves it.

The same penalties aren't applied when a rider from another team takes food or water, because the rule specifically states that riders are allowed to exchange minor services such as food or water, but mechanical assistance is not permitted, with the penalty for this to be a time penalty of 2 minutes.

So the same penalties aren't applied in the circumstances you mention because nobody broke any rules. Where Clarke offered mechanical assistance to Porte, rules were broken, so the penalty was applied.

Thanks for clarifying that. My point was that while many rules (magic water bottle, pretending mechanical assistance from a car) are usually unenforced so this one should have been.

Maybe if Porte and Clarke stop and swap front wheels back they'll give them their two minutes back.

 

[myrideissteelerthanyours]

Re: Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fai

Some of these UCI regulations seem unenforceable.

Course
2.4.002 The course shall be safe and perfectly signposted.

Sprints
2.3.036 Riders shall be strictly forbidden to deviate from the lane they selected when launching
into the sprint and, in so doing, endangering others.

 

[MacRoadie]

Re: Re:

A much more problematic rule, again, would be the one about riders pushing riders. It is a clear DQ, but it is, to my knowledge, never enforced.I guess you could say it has been nullified by precedent in a way as to make it almost unenforceable.

The sanction for pushing a member of another team in a stage race is 200CHF + 10-second penalty.

DQ only applies to a second offence or on final stage.

Yeah, 12.1.040 (11.3.2) seems to say that, and I would seem to stand corrected, though this makes it less than completely clear:

2.3.012 All riders may render each other such minor services as lending or exchanging food,
drink, spanners or accessories.
The lending or exchanging of tubular tyres or bicycles and waiting for a rider who has been dropped or involved in an accident shall be permitted only amongst riders of the same team. The pushing of one rider by another shall in all cases be forbidden, on pain of disqualification.

Enforcement seems spotty to non-existent regardless. Porte and Clarke weren't docked the extra 10" either, AFAIK.

Going out on a limb here, but I believe the rule applies to pushing while already underway, as in on a climb. You'll never see a rider penalized for getting a push by a spectator to get back rolling after a crash, but you WILL see penalties for that same rider getting pushes on a climb (which is why you see riders very adamant about not getting pushes, well except maybe the autobus).

 

[MacRoadie]

Re: Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fai

Some of these UCI regulations seem unenforceable.

Course
2.4.002 The course shall be safe and perfectly signposted.

Sprints
2.3.036 Riders shall be strictly forbidden to deviate from the lane they selected when launching
into the sprint and, in so doing, endangering others.

Except that the most common and loudly argued penalty in Grand Tours is the sprint relegation for deviating from a line...

 

[myrideissteelerthanyours]

Re: Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fai

Some of these UCI regulations seem unenforceable.

Course
2.4.002 The course shall be safe and perfectly signposted.

Sprints
2.3.036 Riders shall be strictly forbidden to deviate from the lane they selected when launching
into the sprint and, in so doing, endangering others.

Except that the most common and loudly argued penalty in Grand Tours is the sprint relegation for deviating from a line...

Yeah its argued because its enforced selectively.