Portugal's footballers dope?

[Jux1893]

Ultimately, my point is there is probably doping in football, but it will never make a donkey into a racehorse, to use a clinic cycling term (which I'm not entirely convinced by)

I don't agree with that view. Nowadays the physical aspect of football is at least as important as the technical. You just have to see Mourinho's teams. 1 Technicall player and 9 Workers (plus the Gk).

 

[The Hitch]

My thoughts on this. I'll say straight up that I don't think football is clean, but lets have a slightly objective view on procedings.

Let's start with Rio Ferdinand. I'm a West Ham fan and Rio managed to cultivate an image of him being absent-minded and forgetful even then. I really don't think this was a pre-cursor to missing a drug test.

The general opinion of Ferdinand's test, in order, is:

1. Rio is stupid
2. Rio was doing a bit of coke
3. Rio was taking medicine for the clap.

Back then English football had no whereabouts scheme (I'm not sure if they do now). So if they were doping with EPO etc, they would just be 'injured with a doctor' far away from the training ground.

The thing with football is that doping won't do much for an individual - it has to be at a team level. Being able to run all day is great, but 90 hard minutes of Carrick doesn't equal 60 minutes of Xavi. No amount of dope will make a Swansea City centre midfielder into Steven Gerrard.

Now, if a team is on a programme, then they'd pick it up in the March onwards period, when the key fixtures come thick and fast. Anything prior to that should have been taken care of by squad superiority. That's when they'll dope. I think it makes them talented for longer, but it doesn't make them more talented. But it may cause a crucial edge in fitness in the last minutes.

Ultimately, my point is there is probably doping in football, but it will never make a donkey into a racehorse, to use a clinic cycling term (which I'm not entirely convinced by)

Totaly disagree.

First of all epo isnt the be all end all in doping. For cyclists maybe. For other sports, steroids to make you faster and stronger. So you say doping would only help them run around longer. No it will increase their ability to barge through players, and football is such a contact sport these days. Some players like makalele do s**t else but fight physically for the ball and then just pass it on.

But Take someone like messi. Where would he be without insane pace, and great strength (for his size)? Nowhere. There are tons of kids with his skills, who are seen as to weak physically to make it. Its the speed and strenght which makes him. These days speed and strenght can be boosted significantly with steroids.

Strenght especially is becoming important. the sport is increasingly getting filled with brutes like drogba, terry. Why? do they have better skill? nope, its the strenght which they bring.

As for endurance it would help. They play all year round, 64 games in a season. With the world cup xavi will have played even more. He will have had a months rest all season. There was something in the spanish press before the wc that the playears will have been tired from none stop football all season. Surprise surprise, they all were on top form once again, for the world cup. To be on peak form all year round, thats were epo comes in. And lets remember the strong links to operation puerto and the claims by former clients of fuentes that they met famous footballers at his clinic.

People still think its all about skill. These days you very rarely see a player taking on a whole team. It used to be about skill, but i think people have realised that giving a good through ball isnt neccesarily as great an act of genius as it is hyped up to be, and these days more players are able to do it. Speed, strenght and endurance are becoming the deciding factors, and with crap and rare testing, its not very difficult to significantly boost all 3 by doping.

 

[The Hitch]

I don't agree with that view. Nowadays the physical aspect of football is at least as important as the technical. You just have to see Mourinho's teams. 1 Technicall player and 9 Workers (plus the Gk).

+ infinity.

Exactly. Pretty much what i say in the post below yours.

 

[sherer]

But Take someone like messi. Where would he be without insane pace, and great strength (for his size)? Nowhere. There are tons of kids with his skills, who are seen as to weak physically to make it. Its the speed and strenght which makes him. These days speed and strenght can be boosted significantly with steroids.

you mean the Messi who was given HGH when he was younger ? Think it was even paid for by Barca

 

[The Hitch]

you mean the Messi who was given HGH when he was younger ? Think it was even paid for by Barca

do tell.

You mean the treatment he was given? i was mocked before for suggesting it was doping

 

[sherer]

do tell.

You mean the treatment he was given? i was mocked before for suggesting it was doping

yes that is it. Guess you can take it either way. It isn't doping if he doesn't get HGH all the time but he wouldn't be a footballer without it.

 

[doxter]

mambo95 , do you happen to know whether Ferdinand had just recently through recovery when he missed the test ?
and was carlos quieroz coach at his club at the missed test ?

not specifically on that case i think its fair to say that there have been convictions in football and indeed at least one club who ran a program .

there have also been multiple players from thew same national team convicted

 

[Jux1893]

mambo95 , do you happen to know whether Ferdinand had just recently through recovery when he missed the test ?
and was carlos quieroz coach at his club at the missed test ?

not specifically on that case i think its fair to say that there have been convictions in football and indeed at least one club who ran a program .

there have also been multiple players from thew same national team convicted

It happened 2 months after Queiroz left Man Utd to be head coach at Real Madrid. After he was sacked from Real he returned to Man Utd as a Assistant Manager.

Your two other paragraphs I'm not sure if they are questions, but i can only recall Juve as a team with a program. Relating National teams, it is said that West Germanys performance in the 1954 World Cup Final 2nd half is the first sign of doping in Sport.


Relating the use drugs to enhance a young players physical cappability, you must see Cristiano Ronaldo. From a acne filled 19 year old boy to Hulk, in just a few months.

 

[paveton]

I'm impressed how is it possible for 552 tests, made during the World Cup, none have came out positive. Even with North Korea in the mix.
I don't think football is cleaner than cycling, McQuaid just isn't as "competent" in hiding it as Blatter.

How about they were clean? Is it too simple?
None have came out positive at WC since 1994 (Maradona) - different countries, continents... they are all doped, but nothing comes out.
Seems like Blatter is more powerful than Mossad, CIA and FSB combined together...

Not to mention that there are far less tests in football. Far far less. And as far as i know (though im not sure) they dont get tested on match days (like cyclists get doping control after races).

How much exactly is "Far far less"?
There are almost 30 000 tests in football annually all over the world (and btw. less than 1% positive)
And FYI - of course they ARE tested on match days as well as on out of competition days.

Usually there is at least one player from each team that pees in the cup after a game, but only at high level matches.
I've got that there were 552 test at the World Cup. Anyone knows how many there were in the Tour.
In the World Cup there were 736 players and 30 days of competiton.

Actually there are always two players from each team after match... and more to it - out of competition tests during season.
And what do you mean by "high level matches"?

...But Take someone like messi. Where would he be without insane pace, and great strength (for his size)? Nowhere. There are tons of kids with his skills, who are seen as to weak physically to make it. Its the speed and strenght which makes him...

Sorry, but do you follow football? Just the reverse is true - there are tons of players all over the world with strenght and pace just like him or even better, but none of them has his skills. It's just his skills and "sixth football sense" what makes him unique.

 

[The Hitch]

How much exactly is "Far far less"?
There are almost 30 000 tests in football annually all over the world (and btw. less than 1% positive)
And FYI - of course they ARE tested on match days as well as on out of competition days.

.

Look at the comment i posted later (quoting Libertine Seguros) about how David James and Arsene Wenger claimed premier league players (the biggest sports stars in the world) were being tested twice a year. Also figures showing the ammount of tests in english football a year were shown there.

Sorry, but do you follow football? Just the reverse is true - there are tons of players all over the world with strenght and pace just like him or even better, but none of them has his skills. It's just his skills and "sixth football sense" what makes him unique

Umm no. Well, sure there are people stronger than him who dont make, that is obvious. But they will usually be in the 185 cm + range.

Messi is 169 cm. This gives him a very low centre of gravity just like a lot of other 169 cm players, which allows him to turn quickly. However without the strenght and pace, this is nothing.
You accuse me of not following football (or at least sarcastically ask if i do) but it is you who is guilty, not of not watching football, but not watching the lower and younger levels. There are tons out there with skills like him (look at people like kerlon who can carry the ball on his head past defenders). there are those with the ability to turn players like him. But their strenght lets them down. Ive seen it many times. Players touted as the next big thing. running world class defenders into the ground. But when it comes to the big games, the defenders, midfielders just barge them out of the way as if they werent there. They cant cope, if there are opposition players less thant 5 metres away from them. Strenght is a huge factor in football these days and for his small size, messi has a lot of strength. Thats not even taking into account the speed, which doesnt wane, whatsoever over 90 minutes twice a week, 40 weeks a year.

 

[paveton]

Look at the comment i posted later (quoting Libertine Seguros) about how David James and Arsene Wenger claimed premier league players (the biggest sports stars in the world) were being tested twice a year. Also figures showing the ammount of tests in english football a year were shown there.

Question was "far less or more"
Actually there are not less tests in football.
Of course, it has much more professional players, so you can't test everyone every month, but top players/teams are tested regularly (and still no evidence of systematic doping, unlike cycling) and will be much more (comparable to biological passport in cycling).

Messi is 169 cm. This gives him a very low centre of gravity just like a lot of other 169 cm players, which allows him to turn quickly. However without the strenght and pace, this is nothing.

You got it. Although the causality is still opposite - he surely has some strength and pace, but without his skills, this is nothing. And more to it, he has the great advantage of very low centre of gravity. He is not faster or stronger than most of his opponents, but he is skillful and "smarter", has a great football sense and therefore he looks like he is always one step ahead -
Just like other great small players: Maradona, Romario, Giresse, Hassler, Ortega, Saviola, Iniesta... (all under 170 cm)

You accuse me of not following football (or at least sarcastically ask if i do) but it is you who is guilty, not of not watching football, but not watching the lower and younger levels. There are tons out there with skills like him (look at people like kerlon who can carry the ball on his head past defenders). there are those with the ability to turn players like him. But their strenght lets them down. Ive seen it many times. Players touted as the next big thing. running world class defenders into the ground. But when it comes to the big games, the defenders, midfielders just barge them out of the way as if they werent there. They cant cope, if there are opposition players less thant 5 metres away from them. Strenght is a huge factor in football these days and for his small size, messi has a lot of strength. Thats not even taking into account the speed, which doesnt wane, whatsoever over 90 minutes twice a week, 40 weeks a year.

Nope (at least there are not tons of them). Sure, there are many great "jugglers", they look fantastic - especially at younger levels playing against unexperienced kids. But that's not all - "skill" means not only you are able to do something, but you have to do the right "something" in the right moment and when it comes to the big games you have to decide very fast what to do. And as you mentioned, some players can't cope with it.
As for Kerlon - AFAIK he had serious injury, played only few matches and he is still young, we will see... but i don't see him anywhere near Messi.
As for long season - i can't entirely agree with you - some of key players are obviously tired at the end of season and for example at the WC (where their form should peak) they are almost invisible...

 

[Jux1893]

I've been following football for more than 25 years, and I know a lot about it, much more than I know about cycling.

I don't believe that North Korea doesn't have a doping program and I suspect some of the abnormal amount of injuries that happened before the World Cup were doping related.

I've seen my share of doping cases, and teams that perform over their capability, as Boavista, that were all doped up on caffeine during the early 2000's, with one of their players getting a suspension for "only drinking one Coke".

I can't explain the way Ronaldo, Nani and Andersson developed in Man Utd, they had the Technicall aspect of the game, but the way they grew physichally is, to me, unbelievable. Since, specially Nani and Ronaldo came from one of the best Youth Academy's in the World.

I'm not saying football is more doped than cycling, but it would be easier for FIFA to conceal it. It is hard for me to believe that less than 0,2% of football players dope, but I guess each one believes in what they want.

 

[sherer]

I think the way that money flows into the game and the importance club football has taken I don't htink any national teams would have much of a program anyway. They see so little of the players throughout a year they wouldn't be able to do anything.

Pep Guardiola was done for drugs a few years back along with another player at the same time not sure if he was at Barca at the time or in Italy. I;m sure Zindane has mentioned this about Juve in the past and I think Italian football has been looked at before in the 80s \ 90s for this.

We know Puerto linked into players from Real \ Barca but with their money no names were released just those from one sport only, shame the names from Puerto never leaked onto the net

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Question was "far less or more"
Actually there are not less tests in football.
Of course, it has much more professional players, so you can't test everyone every month, but top players/teams are tested regularly (and still no evidence of systematic doping, unlike cycling) and will be much more (comparable to biological passport in cycling).

Then why would Arsène Wenger say he had players who had not been tested in five years at the club? You'd think Arsenal would count as 'top players/teams' so would be tested regularly.

Plus, the PFA blocked attempts to bring in blood tests.

Plus, Denis Menchov was tested 52 times last year (26 for blood, 26 for urine). The average - that's AVERAGE - Premiership footballer is tested twice a year.

It's a lot easier to find no systematic doping when you have no intention of looking for it.

 

[Jux1893]

It's a lot easier to find no systematic doping when you have no intention of looking for it.

Hear, hear!

 

[paveton]

I don't believe that North Korea doesn't have a doping program and I suspect some of the abnormal amount of injuries that happened before the World Cup were doping related.

They certainly had doping program, but now with lack of money...I wouldn't be so sure about that.
Btw. I believe if some of North Korean players were tested positive, FIFA wouldn't be bothered at all

I'm not saying football is more doped than cycling, but it would be easier for FIFA to conceal it. It is hard for me to believe that less than 0,2% of football players dope, but I guess each one believes in what they want.

It's not about belief It's about evidence, testimonies, facts...
Btw. you said: "I don't think football is cleaner than cycling..."
I know, that football is not clean... that only some amount of dopers is caught, so obviously more than only 0,xx% of players dope.
But there is no reason to think, that doping in football is as widespread as in cycling. Unless you only want to believe in it.

...I don't htink any national teams would have much of a program anyway. They see so little of the players throughout a year they wouldn't be able to do anything.

I agree. Of course, they could do something what Jux1893 is talking about (but i doubt some poor and less developed countries could manage it properly) - internally test the players and if someone would fail, exclude him from squad (due to "injury"). That's the way, how to get all tests negative at WC - and for me more believable, than Blatter bribing laboratories, doping control officers etc. all around the world.

We know Puerto linked into players from Real \ Barca but with their money no names were released just those from one sport only, shame the names from Puerto never leaked onto the net

WHAT exactly we KNOW?
I agree it's a shame, maybe someone will tell in the future.

Then why would Arsène Wenger say he had players who had not been tested in five years at the club? You'd think Arsenal would count as 'top players/teams' so would be tested regularly.

Yes, but AW has been there since 1996. What period was he talking about?
They are regularly playing Champions League. From the group stage on it means cca 10-12 matches - 2 players tested after each match + at least 1 out of competition test during season - 10 players tested. It makes at least 30 in all annualy. This scheme has been running since 2005.
Plus National authority (UK Anti-Doping) tests.
Plus in-competition (2 players after match) and pre-competition (8 players) tests on tournaments (WC, Euro etc. - almost all of them represents their respective countries).
I seriously doubt there has been any person playing for last 5 years in Arsenal and has not been tested.
Though i agree with him - the more the better.

Plus, Denis Menchov was tested 52 times last year (26 for blood, 26 for urine). The average - that's AVERAGE - Premiership footballer is tested twice a year.

Don't forget, there are "some differences" between football and cycling, first of all team vs. individual sport.
Ok, Menchov was tested many times (and who else should be, than multiple (GT) winner and leading GC rider, btw. in a sport with serious doping problems) and so were best clubs/teams (and therefore their players) in CHL, Europa league, WC, Euro etc. Doesn't matter, that only 2, 8 or 10 players are tested, if there were systematic doping (all doped), you should still find something.

Plus, the PFA blocked attempts to bring in blood tests

Didn't notice that, however AFAIK they do collect also blood samples in England

It's a lot easier to find no systematic doping when you have no intention of looking for it.

Well, if you think conducting tens of thousands tests = no intention of looking for something...

 

[Benotti69]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/aug/25/france-doctor-blood-test-world-cup

France doctor alleges 1998 World Cup winners had blood test anomalies
• Jean-Pierre Paclet makes claims in new book
• 'There were practices going on … that were borderline'

"Blood tests showed anomalies from several Bleus just before the 1998 World Cup," he writes in L'Implosion, adding. "When you know the clubs where certain players were raised, it gives rise to strong suspicions."

"It's public knowledge that there were practices going on at the time … that were borderline, to say the least. I am saying what everyone knows. I haven't made anything up. Having a raised hematocrit [indicator of red blood cells] level did not prove that they had taken EPO. As there was no proof, we didn't bother them with it."

 

[Fester]

Don't forget, there are "some differences" between football and cycling, first of all team vs. individual sport.
Ok, Menchov was tested many times (and who else should be, than multiple (GT) winner and leading GC rider, btw. in a sport with serious doping problems) and so were best clubs/teams (and therefore their players) in CHL, Europa league, WC, Euro etc. Doesn't matter, that only 2, 8 or 10 players are tested, if there were systematic doping (all doped), you should still find something.

Cycling is a team sport... Occasionally and with luck an individual might shine but it's 90% team work that wins. CYcling isn't more doped at all, in fact it's relatively backwards in its doping and relatively far ahead in it's controls. People expect cyclists to dope because of the difficulty of the sport.

 

[The Hitch]

They certainly had doping program, but now with lack of money...I wouldn't be so sure about that.





It's not about belief It's about evidence, testimonies, facts...
Btw. you said: "I don't think football is cleaner than cycling..."
I know, that football is not clean... that only some amount of dopers is caught, so obviously more than only 0,xx% of players dope.
But there is no reason to think, that doping in football is as widespread as in cycling. Unless you only want to believe in it.




I agree. Of course, they could do something what Jux1893 is talking about (but i doubt some poor and less developed countries could manage it properly) - internally test the players and if someone would fail, exclude him from squad (due to "injury"). That's the way, how to get all tests negative at WC - and for me more believable, than Blatter bribing laboratories, doping control officers etc. all around the world.




WHAT exactly we KNOW?
I agree it's a shame, maybe someone will tell in the future.




Yes, but AW has been there since 1996. What period was he talking about?
They are regularly playing Champions League. From the group stage on it means cca 10-12 matches - 2 players tested after each match + at least 1 out of competition test during season - 10 players tested. It makes at least 30 in all annualy. This scheme has been running since 2005.
Plus National authority (UK Anti-Doping) tests.
Plus in-competition (2 players after match) and pre-competition (8 players) tests on tournaments (WC, Euro etc. - almost all of them represents their respective countries).
I seriously doubt there has been any person playing for last 5 years in Arsenal and has not been tested.
Though i agree with him - the more the better.




Don't forget, there are "some differences" between football and cycling, first of all team vs. individual sport.
Ok, Menchov was tested many times (and who else should be, than multiple (GT) winner and leading GC rider, btw. in a sport with serious doping problems) and so were best clubs/teams (and therefore their players) in CHL, Europa league, WC, Euro etc. Doesn't matter, that only 2, 8 or 10 players are tested, if there were systematic doping (all doped), you should still find something.




Didn't notice that, however AFAIK they do collect also blood samples in England




Well, if you think conducting tens of thousands tests = no intention of looking for something...

I will admit that you make a good and convincing argument. So well done for that. But I disagree with you based on a few points.
1 You say there is no evidence for systematic doping in football.
I say, operation puerto, and the Juventus trial, where it was found that epo and other substances were being used.
2 A lot of people thought athletics/ speed skating/ our thing were clean in the early 90's and we now know they werent, and thanks to investigations we know that this was not the case. Football has not had any investigations of the sort. It denies doping occurs full stop. But doping is often a guilty until proven innocent charge. Especially in sports were money is involved and were doping would help a lot (association football fits the bill) and were no efforts are made to combat it.
3 what others have said.

Oh and btw how many cyclists have we caught with our tests. Very few. A lot of the big suspencions - Jan, Basso, Valverde were due to blood bags being found, which they then argue they "intended to dope". And this is a sport that is out to get the dopers (well most of them anyway). And we hear stories from Frei and the like that if you drink enough water, you can get away with it. Footballers get tested less frequently and less thoroughly.

and finaly

Btw. if some of North Korean/Spanish/Brazilian/English/French/Portugese/German/Italian/Argentinian/Japanese/ Canadian/Guatemalan/Vatican/Samoan/Vulcan players were tested positive, FIFA wouldn't be bothered at all

fixed it for you

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Well, if you think conducting tens of thousands tests = no intention of looking for something...

Do you know the parameters to which they test? The things for which they test? In layman's terms, a guy whacked out of his head on dope can pass a breathalyser rigged for alcohol. Doesn't mean he's fit to drive. You can test them 10000 times, you still won't get a positive. The guy could be up to his neck in substances, but evade the testers. There is no test for autologous transfusions - which is the thing that Puerto, which Sevilla, Valencia, Barcelona and Real Madrid were implied in, hinged upon. Only four cyclists have been suspended regards it (Basso, Scarponi, Jäksche, Valverde), while others have been blacklisted. But while it has been mis-managed on most levels by cycling authorities, it has been completely swept under the carpet by others - to the point where Eufemio Fuentes himself came out and said "why have only cyclists been named? There are top level footballers and tennis stars on my lists, but they only go after the cyclists".

And that's before we get to the amount of things tested for. Footballer gets a cortisone injection, plays for his team, he's a hero. Cyclist gets a cortisone injection, rides for his team, he's banned for two years.

 

[The Hitch]

Do you know the parameters to which they test? The things for which they test? In layman's terms, a guy whacked out of his head on dope can pass a breathalyser rigged for alcohol. Doesn't mean he's fit to drive. You can test them 10000 times, you still won't get a positive. The guy could be up to his neck in substances, but evade the testers. There is no test for autologous transfusions - which is the thing that Puerto, which Sevilla, Valencia, Barcelona and Real Madrid were implied in, hinged upon. Only four cyclists have been suspended regards it (Basso, Scarponi, Jäksche, Valverde), while others have been blacklisted. But while it has been mis-managed on most levels by cycling authorities, it has been completely swept under the carpet by others - to the point where Eufemio Fuentes himself came out and said "why have only cyclists been named? There are top level footballers and tennis stars on my lists, but they only go after the cyclists".

And that's before we get to the amount of things tested for. Footballer gets a cortisone injection, plays for his team, he's a hero. Cyclist gets a cortisone injection, rides for his team, he's banned for two years.

Good post.

Did Fuentes really say that? In so many words?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Good post.

Did Fuentes really say that? In so many words?

I was paraphrasing, but there are many sources and quotes.

Here's one translated into English:
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?sf=14&set_id=6&click_id=185&art_id=qw1152085680768S163

"Treatment only for cyclists? I'm also indignant about that. I've worked with other sports, like athletics, tennis and football. There are a lot of names that haven't come out, there has been only selective leaks. I don't know why.

"I've worked with Spanish football teams from the first and second divisions that have improved their performance. If I haven't carried out the treatment myself I have recommended it to them."

 

[The Hitch]

People often say that there is no doping in football because its a skill sport. So i have to ask (to those who know about baseball). In baseball they have had a lot of doping problems. Isnt that as much if not more a skill sport than association football?

 

[The Hitch]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/aug/25/france-doctor-blood-test-world-cup

France doctor alleges 1998 World Cup winners had blood test anomalies
• Jean-Pierre Paclet makes claims in new book
• 'There were practices going on … that were borderline'

Many thanks for this. very interesting

 

[sherer]

The Marseille team that won the European Cup, was it 90 or 91 was doping. There are comments, i think from Marcel Desailly, about being given pills to take.

There were also stripped of the win due to bribes