**** Pound's statement On Mr. Livestrong.

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whiteboytrash

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Mar 17, 2009
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I'm not actually aware of any leaks. All the AFLD have said that they have made a submission for hearing based upon the shower incident. Nothing more and nothing less. Everything else has been speculation from the Lance and his fans on what he did. i.e. they are already attempting to justify his actions without knowing the facts. One should wait for the report before making conclusions about retardation etc.

BroDeal said:
That a lab member is leaking that a positive has occurred says absolutely nothing about the scientific testing. Again it looks like doping apologists making mountains out of molehills to defend the doping of their idols.

There is a long and sordid history of sports organizations covering up doping by their athletes. It has happened all over the world, and the UCI has a corrupt stench coming off it that would knock a dung beetle unconscious. The leaking helps prevent cover ups. It is a good thing.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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BroDeal said:
That a lab member is leaking that a positive has occurred says absolutely nothing about the scientific testing. Again it looks like doping apologists making mountains out of molehills to defend the doping of their idols.
That a lab violates clearly delineated rules says plenty about how professionally the lab is run. If the rider is going to get roasted for not following the letter of the rules, then the lab should be held accountable to the same standards. Too much is riding on the results to think otherwise, especially in these times when even a preliminary accusation of doping is the same as a conviction. Let's be perfectly honest here: the majority of information leaks coming from labs seem to come from one particular lab.

This is all fine and well if you don't like the rider in question, but what happens when the lab starts disregarding rules with a rider that you do like?

Today, overlooking rules seem to be acceptable to some, in order to nail a suspected doper. Tomorrow, the same methods can be used to discredit riders for other reasons: nationality, or cash payoff. This is not a good precedent to set. Either everyone involved follows the rules that have been developed, or no one follows them. Right now, it looks more like the latter.
 
fbergo said:
All reports indicate that Lance asked permission to go away while the tester's identity was being confirmed, and the tester explicitly allowed it. If the rules don't allow for this, this french genius should have stated it pronto and denied the request.
"All reports" ony applies if all you're reading are the reports from the Armstrong camp. The reports from the testers are that he decided to shower against the advice from the tester present. Your use of the word "genius" in reference to the tester makes it pretty obvious that your opinion wouldn't change even if you had bothered to read anything other those reports that supported the Armstrong camp's version of the events. There are 2 sides to every story.
 
Lance speaks only the gospel, while those corrupt and incompetent French labs do nothing but screw things up and try to cover their tracks?
Yeah right.

Who was resonsible for hacking into the LNDD?
Who inserted messages with mangled French and badly forged e-mail headers to make it look like official lab correspondence. Then these fake e-mails were sent to various WADA labs and press members to make it look like the LNDD was up to no good?

Arnie Baker, Floyd Landis's long time mentor, that's who.
A pity for him, the French hacker he paid $2000, got caught hacking into Greenpeace and has now spilled the beans.

This is who started this French labs are useless, smokescreen.
No credibility, whatsoever.

Still, sheep are easily led, especially if they are desperate for something to believe in.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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**** Pound!!?

**** Pound was a middle of the pack Canadian National Team and Olympic athlete (swimming). While he has not significant results to his credit, I applaud his ability to have once competed at the highest levels of his sport.

It does seem however that he has a compulsive need to leave his impact on international sports, and cycling in particular. His obvious lack of tact, judgment, diplomacy and discretion, have already been responsible for his marginalization by, and removal as the head of WADA.

So I guess the question is; why does he continue to be a credible source for comment for the cycling media? And more importantly, why should we care?
 
TrapperJohn said:
That a lab violates clearly delineated rules says plenty about how professionally the lab is run. If the rider is going to get roasted for not following the letter of the rules, then the lab should be held accountable to the same standards. Too much is riding on the results to think otherwise, especially in these times when even a preliminary accusation of doping is the same as a conviction. Let's be perfectly honest here: the majority of information leaks coming from labs seem to come from one particular lab.

This is all fine and well if you don't like the rider in question, but what happens when the lab starts disregarding rules with a rider that you do like?

Today, overlooking rules seem to be acceptable to some, in order to nail a suspected doper. Tomorrow, the same methods can be used to discredit riders for other reasons: nationality, or cash payoff. This is not a good precedent to set. Either everyone involved follows the rules that have been developed, or no one follows them. Right now, it looks more like the latter.
That a rider violates clearly delineated rules says plenty about how professional that rider is. If the lab is going to get roasted for not following the letter of the rules, then the rider should be held accountable to the same standards. Too much is riding on the results to think otherwise, especially in these times when even a preliminary accusation of doping is the same as a conviction. Let's be perfectly honest here: the majority of information supporting Armstrong seems to come from his Twitter/PR team.

This is all fine and well if you don't like the lab & nation in question, but what happens when the rider starts disregarding rules with a lab/nation that you do like?

Today, overlooking rules seem to be acceptable to some, in order to villify labs. Tomorrow, the same methods can be used to discredit labs for other reasons: nationality, or protecting dopers. This is not a good precedent to set. Either everyone involved follows the rules that have been developed, or no one follows them. Right now, it looks more like the latter.

:D
 
Mar 18, 2009
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I think we need to straighten something out here - AFLD stands for Agence Francaise de Lutte contre le Dopage.

They are:
1) Not a lab - they are not, for example, the Laboratoire National de Depistage de Dopage
2) Not responsible for leaks to Equipe - that was the UCI. They have only been in existence since 2006.

To not bother to fact check and simply swallow the Armstrong story hook line and sinker shows a shocking lack of critical thinking.
 
Apr 10, 2009
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Have the reports been released from the AFLD? If they show no noted irregularities then it becomes a he said, they said argument. Again, the AFLD can very simply refute the Armstrong argument with their documentation, until they do I will give credence to each sides arguments. It is irresponsible to believe either side without some skepticism. My father always told me there are three sides to every story, his side, her side and the truth.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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BigBoat said:
So what do the Lance lovers/ haters think of Richard Pound? lets discuss him he he he...

On WADA article 5.4.1 :

"You can catherise [using clean urine - ed.], you can drink tons and tons of water, you can do all sorts of things to spoil or affect the test. So that is exactly why you have this rule," he said.
Who cares what *** Pound has got to say about a racing God?
 
Apr 20, 2009
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grimpeur said:
Who are your sources saying the tester explicitly allowed it? Sources also say the ALFD threatened to call the gendarmes. Non-compliance seems to make the LA and accomplice the ones that are mentally challenged.
Is it impossible to believe that Lance Armstrong, a man tested more than 30 times since he announced his come back, and a world wide celebrity, whether you like him or not; when approached by a supposed Professional/Official, who lacks sufficient credential, and the ability to adequately represent and identify himself, would call his credibility into question? I am sure that celebrity creates countless bizarre fan interactions.

Is it not plausible that a man, whose experience of this process is more complete than any other professional cyclist, just might test this guy by asking to leave the room, and after receiving permission to doubt his authenticity even further?

These are not naive questions considering the alternative speculation is that Lance used the twenty minutes to catheterize himself (ouch) and implant clean urine that he just happened to have on hand along with the equipment, or drank "gallons" of water as well as take a shower and change his clothes. And, oh yeah, the blood and hair samples came back negative as well. Hmmm... I wonder what he did for that, with those extra minutes.

Both Armstrong and Bruyneel maintain that the question on the form regarding irregularities was check "No". I assume they have a copy, otherwise why bother making the statement. Is all this drama really necessary? It wouldn't be France without it!
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Pound rants...

Pound is an embarassment to sport and especially Canada. From the rest of us in Canada I apologize that you have to read his rants. Perhaps Pound didn't read the full accusation. I always take people with a grain of salt that can only be armchair critics. Pound is a lost soul with the ever lingering "want-to-be" accepted personality. Move on now and if I may be so bold, watch at the end of July when two Astana members stand on the podium in Paris.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Hair = decisive factor

It is interesting that he elected to take that shower.

I agree with the exhortations to think critically about anything Lance says. It's paramount to think critically about what anyone says, or you run the risk of being a dupe.

While we're all thinking critically about this case, let's take a quick look at the most important statement, made by the AFLD's testers--namely, that Lance's HAIR test was negative. Your hair reflects months' worth of every toxin you put in your body, irrespective of its solubility type. What--did he scrub his hair very thoroughly with Head & Shoulders' Industrial Strength? The bottom line is, you can't beat a hair test without being clean. Ergo, he hasn't taken any drugs... at least this time around. That's unbiased logic. & it seems to me, then, that this renders moot the speculations about the suspicious shower.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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BroDeal said:
The old blame the french ploy. The labs leaking positive results to the press is a good thing. Transparency is a good thing. People complaining about the press reporting on positives are nothing but doping apologists looking to find any bogus issue they can to cast doubt on the results. Reporting facts does not change the facts.

With the UCI taking $500K under the table payments from riders, who knows how many positives would just disappear (or be covered up with a post-dated TUE) if the UCI could operate totally in secret.
When the same people that own the Tour also control the testing and own the newspaper that "found" the report, it's easy to see where there might be a conflict of interest.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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It takes some serious skill to swap your urine (yuk) for someone else's (blegh), and then deliver just the kind of sample you do when a tester IS looking right up your willy as you full up the cup. Let alone that bood taken, how do you mask hideous amount of dope in 20 minutes? Makes no sense. If you can pee "clean" 29 times, why would you need a guilty excuse to go freshen up with unexpected guests at the door?

This doesn't make Lance a universally friendly or smart guy though. Big mooth, more than is good for him. If he'd be less "Lance", he'd get fewer testers. They know they're not going to find anything the 31st time, but take pleasure in wasting his time anyway.
Slamming Lance for more than facts, would be less wise still. Only works if you want to be hear, be it positively regarded or not so.
 

whiteboytrash

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Mar 17, 2009
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eleven said:
When the same people that own the Tour also control the testing and own the newspaper that "found" the report, it's easy to see where there might be a conflict of interest.
Poor return of serve. The UCI controlled the testing - not ASO, not l'Equipe not anyone associated with the Tour or the newspaper. Some people are so ill informed.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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grimpeur said:
All Pound said was Armstrong broke the rules and Armstrong knows the rules. Wth is so contentious about that? It's not true? This shouldn't be about loving or hating anyone, it's about following the rules.
Armstrong and Brunyeel both said Lance asked for permission to take a shower and the tester allowed it. They also said the tester's report said there was nothing irregular with the test or nothing unusual which would back up their statements. The AFLD has not denied Lance was given permission to take a shower.

The tester simply could have said no. If its lance is screw up it is the tester's sc rew up just as bad. The only reason we have heard of this or its a big deal is because of thier hate of Lance.

In regards to **** Pound he is completely unprofessional and unqualified. As the head of World doping he had and still has a duty to be neutral and professional something he has never done. Rather **** Pound's behavior along with the AFLD's said they have no concern with the truth of doping thier on;y concern is catching people and making headlines. Truth be damned.

That is the problem with doping right now no one cares if they Cyclist's are doping they just want to catch them and convict them. No standard's, no fairness, no real due process. The testing of Cyclist's is a complete joke. Labs are not required to use uptodate equipment, keep records, preovide any meaninigful discovery. They system is just there to convict right or wrong. because its all run by people like **** Pound who are more concerned with politics and acting like they are doing something than truth.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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oxlabs said:
Even if it was technically an infraction, what could lance have done to impact the test in the time that it took for him to verify that the guy that showed up to take the test was legit?
I like this comment from another forum:

"18 gauge IV needle in one arm, train off a unit of blood into a nice big blood bag and pronto into a 2 degees C fridge....21 gauge needle in the other arm>>>in goes some lactated ringers or saline(2 liters) with a pump.

Peanuts...no problem."
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Chomsky said:
The AFLD has not denied Lance was given permission to take a shower.

The tester simply could have said no. If its lance is screw up it is the tester's sc rew up just as bad. The only reason we have heard of this or its a big deal is because of thier hate of Lance.

.
Uh, I dont think so.

"At the agency, the version of events is that only when the tester threatened to call in gendarmes did Bruyneel agree to let testing proceed, and the French official pooh-poohed Armstrong's claim that the tester let him shower. The agency says the tester reported that he repeatedly warned Armstrong that he had to keep him within his sight at all times."

-The Associated Press
 
Apr 20, 2009
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The French have been and always will be corrupt!

Sure rules are rules, but why is it that the french get away with blowing up boats in Australia (Rainbow warrior), Leaking classified evidence to the media and of course showing up at Lance's door not indentifying themselves and then point the finger at Lance! You always learn more about the accuser then the accused!

If they really want to ruin their beloved sport why not abolished it see how quickly there will be another Bastille day in France
 
Mar 19, 2009
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willem said:
If they really want to ruin their beloved sport why not abolished it see how quickly there will be another Bastille day in France
Huh, What do you mean?
 
Apr 20, 2009
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BigBoat said:
I like this comment from another forum:

"18 gauge IV needle in one arm, train off a unit of blood into a nice big blood bag and pronto into a 2 degees C fridge....21 gauge needle in the other arm>>>in goes some lactated ringers or saline(2 liters) with a pump.

Peanuts...no problem."
If that sort of thing was going on it definitely wouldn't be taking place in the arm. Armstrong would still be bleeding from the blood donation and from the saline site as well. When I got out of knee surgery my hand IV site bled all over my pillow case :(.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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drfunk000 said:
If that sort of thing was going on it definitely wouldn't be taking place in the arm. Armstrong would still be bleeding from the blood donation and from the saline site as well. When I got out of knee surgery my hand IV site bled all over my pillow case :(.
Lance's legs are probably veiny> since he has such low body fat. The femoral vein is even there to hit, according to my little thread I'm reading.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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BigBoat said:
Uh, I dont think so.

"At the agency, the version of events is that only when the tester threatened to call in gendarmes did Bruyneel agree to let testing proceed, and the French official pooh-poohed Armstrong's claim that the tester let him shower. The agency says the tester reported that he repeatedly warned Armstrong that he had to keep him within his sight at all times."

-The Associated Press
I think you're missing the big picture. The AFLD sent someone, ALONE, to collect samples. Then, they leaked the information to the press. One cannot conduct oneself in this manner if they are to be trusted. Additionally, Bruyneel/Armstrong's story has been verified by the the President of the UCI and the head of WADA - they DID call to verify the identity of the tester.

Regardless of whether or not you think Armstrong is/was doping, the French government needs to clean up their lab.
 

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