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Power Data Estimates for the climbing stages

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Jun 25, 2009
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Contador climbed 6.6 W/kg

Alberto Contador

Giro d'Italia 2011, Stage 9, Final climb Monte Etna, from 8 Km remaining to 1 Km remaining = 7 Km


Elevation / Höhenmeter [m] : 466 m
Distance / Streckenlänge [Km] : 7.0 Km
Time in seconds / Fahrzeit in Sekunden [sec] : 1020 = 17 min 10 sec = 17:10
Weight rider / Gewicht Fahrer [kg] : 62 kg
Weight bicycle, clothes etc. / Gewicht Fahrrad [kg] : 8 kg

Grade / mittlere Seigung : 6.6 %
Average speed / mittlere Geschwindigkeit : 24.4 Km/h
Total weight / Gesamtgewicht : 70.0 kg

Power : 411.0 Watt
Power / kg : 6.6 Watt / kg

Source: [ http://www.rst.mp-all.de/bergauf.htm ]

Note: Strong head wind and cross wind. Power value is likely higher.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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So 6.6 is not 7.2 like Pantani had in 1997 up to Alpe. So i think Contador is on the safe side...

And he´s not even close to Indurain/Ulle/Armstrong who were around 500 Watt
 
May 12, 2010
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
So 6.6 is not 7.2 like Pantani had in 1997 up to Alpe. So i think Contador is on the safe side...

And he´s not even close to Indurain/Ulle/Armstrong who were around 500 Watt

On the safe side of what? He might not be in the 'using so much dope you're risking permanent health damage' category, but 6.6W/kg is still far outside of the realm of what a lot of people think is doable by a clean athlete. 6.6W/kg is really high, but it was only a 17 minute exercise, too short to draw any big conclusions.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
So 6.6 is not 7.2 like Pantani had in 1997 up to Alpe. So i think Contador is on the safe side...

And he´s not even close to Indurain/Ulle/Armstrong who were around 500 Watt

I do not put much stock in these wattages estimates but Contador was high today. The head wind likely put him in the 6.7-6.8 range. Granted it is for less then 20 minutes and it is just an estimate but it is much higher then the 6.2 range which some point to as clean. It was also at the end of day with 12,000 feet of vertical and a long climb.
 
May 12, 2010
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We'll have to see how this Giro and the upcomming Tour will unfold, but after record times on the Eibar climb in Pays Basque, the fastest Mur time in the Fleche, and multiple people faster than Cancellara last year on the Muur van Geraardsbergen in Vlaanderen, this could be another troubling sign.

Of course all those results in the classics were on short climbs, times could easily be greatly influenced by the weather, or tactics. The last couple of years, and 2010 especially, saw a huge reduction in the watts/kg on the big climbs in the grand tours, but now we're back to 6.6w/kg, and possibly even more. Let's hope this doesn't mean there is a new doping product in the peloton, or they've learned how to succesfully beat the biological passport, but we need a lot more data to make a definitive prediction about that.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Lanark said:
On the safe side of what? He might not be in the 'using so much dope you're risking permanent health damage' category, but 6.6W/kg is still far outside of the realm of what a lot of people think is doable by a clean athlete. 6.6W/kg is really high, but it was only a 17 minute exercise, too short to draw any big conclusions.

And with that we all shall be satisfied. You can´t take out cheating completely. Nowhere, politics, sports or business. Too many psychos are around.

So i am fine with a 6.6/411 by Contador. Even if there was strong headwinds, it´s not as steep as Alpe and not nearly as long (Pantanis 7.2 were for the whole 13.8 Km in Alpe in 37 1/2 minutes, Conta´s today were for "only" 7 km/17 mins.).
 
Lanark said:
We'll have to see how this Giro and the upcomming Tour will unfold, but after record times on the Eibar climb in Pays Basque, the fastest Mur time in the Fleche, and multiple people faster than Cancellara last year on the Muur van Geraardsbergen in Vlaanderen, this could be another troubling sign.

Of course all those results in the classics were on short climbs, times could easily be greatly influenced by the weather, or tactics. The last couple of years, and 2010 especially, saw a huge reduction in the watts/kg on the big climbs in the grand tours, but now we're back to 6.6w/kg, and possibly even more. Let's hope this doesn't mean there is a new doping product in the peloton, or they've learned how to succesfully beat the biological passport, but we need a lot more data to make a definitive prediction about that.
I share your concerns. We're now approaching a point of the season where detecting trends with some confidence is starting to become possible, and I don't like the picture we're getting one bit. After a couple of years of slow progress seemingly on the right track, it would be a devastating blow if the trend was reversed.
 
hrotha said:
I share your concerns. We're now approaching a point of the season where detecting trends with some confidence is starting to become possible, and I don't like the picture we're getting one bit. After a couple of years of slow progress seemingly on the right track, it would be a devastating blow if the trend was reversed.

Same here. However it was somewhat encouraging to see people like Le Mevel and Dupont stay reasonably close to other favorites even if the climb and weather conditions were favorable to 'lesser' riders capable of holding on to the group.
 
hrotha said:
I share your concerns. We're now approaching a point of the season where detecting trends with some confidence is starting to become possible, and I don't like the picture we're getting one bit. After a couple of years of slow progress seemingly on the right track, it would be a devastating blow if the trend was reversed.

I agree entirely. Add into E3, Kloden finding the fountain of youth. Watching today was like going back to 2007 or 99-05

The re-emergence of a two speed peloton?
 
Jun 15, 2009
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???

Two speeds? Now the french can content and it´s still not right? Now the Watts Watt/kg and times go down by around 10% (compared to the crazy days) and it´s still not right?
What you want? 194 riders cross the line at the same time? Then we better watch Nascar or deep sea fishing.

I mean it´s still a competition, not the average sunday evening biking around.
 
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
???

Two speeds? Now the french can content and it´s still not right? Now the Watts Watt/kg and times go down by around 10% (compared to the crazy days) and it´s still not right?
What you want? 194 riders cross the line at the same time? Then we better watch Nascar or deep sea fishing.

I mean it´s still a competition, not the average sunday evening biking around.
Those crazy days you're talking about were some 15 years ago. You should be comparing what we're seeing this season to 2009 and 2010.

The French being cleanish is not a fact of life that must necessarily remain a universal constant forever. It's never meant "all the French are clean", regardless.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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hrotha said:
Those crazy days you're talking about were some 15 years ago. You should be comparing what we're seeing this season to 2009 and 2010.

The French being cleanish is not a fact of life that must necessarily remain a universal constant forever. It's never meant "all the French are clean", regardless.

And there is no difference. I think on Verbier 2009 a big discussion about Contadors performance was coming up (rightfully, as we found later).

We have the same boring races as in 2008, 2009 and 2010. The days of a stage like Landis-2006 or Armstrong´s 1999-2005 are over. Let´s enjoy the time until the real old days come back. I am certain they will. But for now we are far from that. The field seems "cleanish", no matter how you look at it (Watts, time gaps, point of attacks, etc.).

Micro-Doping? Yes for sure.... But i don´t even have to go back 15 years. Just 6 years ago the craziest GT´s happened (2005-TdF with an all time warp speed of 41.5 km/h; Basso gaining 9 mins. in the Giro on everybody before being busted at the 2006-TdF).
 
Mar 4, 2010
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halamala said:
Alberto Contador

Giro d'Italia 2011, Stage 9, Final climb Monte Etna, from 8 Km remaining to 1 Km remaining = 7 Km


Elevation / Höhenmeter [m] : 466 m
Distance / Streckenlänge [Km] : 7.0 Km
Time in seconds / Fahrzeit in Sekunden [sec] : 1020 = 17 min 10 sec = 17:10
Weight rider / Gewicht Fahrer [kg] : 62 kg
Weight bicycle, clothes etc. / Gewicht Fahrrad [kg] : 8 kg

Grade / mittlere Seigung : 6.6 %
Average speed / mittlere Geschwindigkeit : 24.4 Km/h
Total weight / Gesamtgewicht : 70.0 kg

Power : 411.0 Watt
Power / kg : 6.6 Watt / kg

Source: [ http://www.rst.mp-all.de/bergauf.htm ]

Note: Strong head wind and cross wind. Power value is likely higher.

What about the Nibali group?
 
May 26, 2010
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
So 6.6 is not 7.2 like Pantani had in 1997 up to Alpe. So i think Contador is on the safe side...

And he´s not even close to Indurain/Ulle/Armstrong who were around 500 Watt

since when did doping have a safe side???
 
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
And there is no difference. I think on Verbier 2009 a big discussion about Contadors performance was coming up (rightfully, as we found later).

We have the same boring races as in 2008, 2009 and 2010. The days of a stage like Landis-2006 or Armstrong´s 1999-2005 are over. Let´s enjoy the time until the real old days come back. I am certain they will. But for now we are far from that. The field seems "cleanish", no matter how you look at it (Watts, time gaps, point of attacks, etc.).

Micro-Doping? Yes for sure.... But i don´t even have to go back 15 years. Just 6 years ago the craziest GT´s happened (2005-TdF with an all time warp speed of 41.5 km/h; Basso gaining 9 mins. in the Giro on everybody before being busted at the 2006-TdF).
That's the whole point, we're worried about the watts going up again. We're worried about the trend here. 2009 wasn't so hot, but in general it was an improvement, and 2010 seemed to be a big step forward.

And personally I don't think conservative racing has anything to do with the bunch being cleaner. On the contrary, doping is an equalizer in a way, as it raises the average level and makes super domestique teams possible.
 
May 26, 2010
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
since Dr. Ferrari said so.:p

Anyway, i meant we are on the safe side from the older crazy days....

if the bio passport has made the riders on the 'safe side' imagine what real anti-doping control could do. We'd have a fairly clean field for once:)
 
Jun 15, 2009
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hrotha said:
That's the whole point, we're worried about the watts going up again.

And personally I don't think conservative racing has anything to do with the bunch being cleaner. On the contrary, doping is an equalizer in a way, as it raises the average level and makes super domestique teams possible.

1.) There is no proof for that. Except you mean the classics season. For that i have no comparisons. But the GT´s are in the same range for the past few years.

2.) That depends on the point of few. In the crazy days (until 2005/2006) i saw big gaps, early attacks, many attacks, gaps growing by the km etc. All this things are gone.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
if the bio passport has made the riders on the 'safe side' imagine what real anti-doping control could do. We'd have a fairly clean field for once:)

Everybody would like that. But it´s impossible as long greedy people and/or psychos are around. And that is since forever... In Paradise (let me D´Hont quote here) Ullrich would have won 10 Tours. I would have loved it. But in reality, Pantani is dead, Ullrich forced out and Armstrong is cheating out Millions of Dollars out of naive people.
 
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
So 6.6 is not 7.2 like Pantani had in 1997 up to Alpe. So i think Contador is on the safe side...

And he´s not even close to Indurain/Ulle/Armstrong who were around 500 Watt

Can you show that 7.2 watts/kg calculation for Pantani (AdH).

Portoleau got about 6.9 watts/kg for Pantani in 1995, a whee bit less in 97 and 94.

I have not verified it but each time i verify Portoleau I agree within a couple %.
 
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
1.) There is no proof for that. Except you mean the classics season. For that i have no comparisons. But the GT´s are in the same range for the past few years.

2.) That depends on the point of few. In the crazy days (until 2005/2006) i saw big gaps, early attacks, many attacks, gaps growing by the km etc. All this things are gone.
1) Of course there's no proof. That's been the general thrust of the discussion so far - that we're worried about the trend that might be manifesting itself.
2) And before the EPO era, you saw all of that, more often, bigger, larger and uncut.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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hrotha said:
1) Of course there's no proof. That's been the general thrust of the discussion so far - that we're worried about the trend that might be manifesting itself.
2) And before the EPO era, you saw all of that, more often, bigger, larger and uncut.

That is true. But remember we had 300-km stages, GT´s going above 100 mins., TT of 70 km etc. etc. It was wayyy harder than now. Even Fignon wonders about the "short" stages in his book "We were young...", saying the separation between the good and the great doesn´t fulfil anymore.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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hrotha said:
1) Of course there's no proof. That's been the general thrust of the discussion so far - that we're worried about the trend that might be manifesting itself.
2) And before the EPO era, you saw all of that, more often, bigger, larger and uncut.

So we better wait until the GT´s are over. I expect the same ranges as 2008-2010. The big new (working) drug is not yet there.

Until then, enjoy the time;)