PowerCranks - The Discussion

[Inner Peace]

These have been mentioned once or twice in various threads, but I wanted a focused one for anyone searching the forums for advice on these things.

Anyone have any thoughts?
Good?
Bad?
Marketing hype?
Good for anti-symmetric injuries?
Make you faster in a time trial?
Better climbing?

Anything helps, i just want to hear what people think, positive or negative, based on experience or an alternative.

They are (in my book) expensive. So if anyone has an equivalent method to simulate the claimed effects of training with PowerCranks please mention it (ie. another thread said training on rollers is the same thing), but i really want to keep the discussion on the PowerCranks.

And yes, i am thinking of putting some on a single speed bike for training purposes.

Thanks all,

Inner Peace

 

[djconnel]

I think training with powercranks is enormously effective at improving your ability to ride with powercranks.

The goal is to encourage the recruitment of small muscles. Danny Dreyer, in Chi Running, says "never let small muscles do work when larger muscles can" during endurance exercise: the philosophy behind a mid-foot strike and gentle foot-lift, designed to load the quads (big) and spare the calves (small). Danny says small muscles fatigue more quickly, and if your style relies on them, they will tend to fail and transfer load to joints.

Cycling is another matter, of course, but the principle remains that except in sprints, you probably want to let the big muscles carry the main load. So the core philosophy behind power cranks is flawed.

The limiting factor in long-distance cycling is more aerobic than muscular. That's why so many top international cyclists have pencil-calves and skinny thighs.

 

[ergmonkey]

I think training with powercranks is enormously effective at improving your ability to ride with powercranks.

The goal is to encourage the recruitment of small muscles. Danny Dreyer, in Chi Running, says "never let small muscles do work when larger muscles can" during endurance exercise: the philosophy behind a mid-foot strike and gentle foot-lift, designed to load the quads (big) and spare the calves (small). Danny says small muscles fatigue more quickly, and if your style relies on them, they will tend to fail and transfer load to joints.

Cycling is another matter, of course, but the principle remains that except in sprints, you probably want to let the big muscles carry the main load. So the core philosophy behind power cranks is flawed.

The limiting factor in long-distance cycling is more aerobic than muscular. That's why so many top international cyclists have pencil-calves and skinny thighs.

Agreed. 100%.

When you think about it conceptually, fixed gear riding and powercranks riding will train your body to do exactly opposite things. Fixed gear riding effectively teaches the rider to unweight the non-drive foot and simply 'get out of the way' while the strong muscles are working. This encourages a smooth, uninterrupted pedal stroke. Powercranks, on the other hand, force small/weak/awkward muscles to do a lot of work that should be unnecessary--work that can never contribute much to driving the pedals down and work from muscles that will always be likely to be the first to fail. So, unless you want to win the Powercranks world championships, what's the point? Unless, of course, the placebo effect is just so totally awesome as to make them worth a lot of extra cash and weight.

 

[egtalbot]

I don't know about powercranks, but I know a decent amount about Chi Running. And while I think Dreyer's drills and end results are awesome and I use them in my own running quite a bit, I think his stated theories behind why Chi Running works are not accurate IMO. Start with the ridiculous ideas about gravity (they violate the laws of physics) and go from there.

So I'm not sure I agree that recruiting big muscles instead of small muscles in endurance exercise is a good goal. In fact, I would say the goal is to balance the muscle recruitment and through training teach your body how to recruit the different muscles in an effective manner so fatigue is staved off. I WANT to recruit the smaller muscles, just not too much. And the downside of recruiting the big muscles too much is that when they go, you're totally screwed.

How does this impact the powercranks discussion? Well I would say that the stated goal of trying to recruit more muscles is a good one. Whether it meets that goal, I couldn't say.

 

[BroDeal]

Now you have done it. FDay will now show up and begin posting his pseudo-scientific propaganda/mumbo jumbo to this site.

 

[used to row]

when using powercranks one, if the workout is an aerobic one, increases the aerobic power output of the muscles used. if one were to increase the total aerobic power output of the leg muscles as a whole this will in turn increase the net power output of the leg. thus more power to cycle faster

 

[BroDeal]

It is pretty simply. If Gimmick Cranks worked a fraction as well as FDay claims they do then every pro in the world would have to use them or they would be at an insurmountable disadvantage to the competition. Efficient market theory works to explain all sorts of things.

Djconnel said it best, "I think training with powercranks is enormously effective at improving your ability to ride with powercranks."

 

[TopCarbon]

Djconnel said it best, "I think training with powercranks is enormously effective at improving your ability to ride with powercranks."

classic...............

 

[Flamme_Rouge]

Never ridden them myself but have coached a few riders that have used them extensively over the winter for a season's preparation.

To be honest, no one's ever used them two winter's running. Everyone said how good they were and how they felt themselves being stronger but my opinion was this was (as suggested below) some sort of placebo effect. Otherwise, why didn't they get used for a second season?

I know of a pair that have been on five different riders' bikes over five years! It shouldn't be too hard to find a second hand pair; let me know if you want to go this route I might be able to track some down for you.

As I said, never ridden them and these are just my "outsider-looking-in" opinion. Sorry to appear a bit negative, anyway, who's to say a placebo effect is any less effective than a real one!

Tony.

 

[titleshot]

I think you get the same benefit from them as doing one leg drills on a trainer. They are just good for perfecting your pedaling circle. More muscle memory for your legs to spin in a circle easier.
I think I would just do the one leg drills instead of buying these expensive cranks though.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I think you get the same benefit from them as doing one leg drills on a trainer. They are just good for perfecting your pedaling circle. More muscle memory for your legs to spin in a circle easier.
I think I would just do the one leg drills instead of buying these expensive cranks though.

I wouldn't even bother with that.

Here's a tip - train with as many legs as you have available, all the time.

 

[titleshot]

I wouldn't even bother with that.

Here's a tip - train with as many legs as you have available, all the time.

Its actually a really good drill, you should try it. I felt it helps with climbing/pulling leg over the top with ease. Dont knock it until you try it, and its cheaper than powercranks haha.

 

[Tapeworm]

Its actually a really good drill, you should try it. I felt it helps with climbing/pulling leg over the top with ease. Dont knock it until you try it, and its cheaper than powercranks haha.

FELT it helps? I felt like I was doing 60kph up a hill, but I wasn't. Feeling is the worst metric out there.

 

[Inner Peace]

Anyone who has used these and would vouch for them?

Something I noticed from browsing the powercranks website was that the majority of the 'results' they display of athletes that train with them, are very much 'time triallists'.. that is, with the noticeable exception of Basso, the guys that are using these cranks are Evans and Rogers to name a few (Sassi's clients) and there is a long list of ironman triathletes (which of course include a LONG time trial in the middle of their race).

Makes sense that your 'burst of power' type riders wouldn't be using them because from what i understand about the mechanism is that out of the saddle stuff isn't really their purpose..

I have to agree with one of the first posters that said training with powercranks makes you better at riding with powercranks.

but that doesn't make them ineffective as a training tool, does it? i mean, if you are recruiting more (small) muscles that will then save the big muscles for later in a race, wouldn't that benefit? if they recruit more muscles to increase your VO2 max, wouldn't that help?

I don't do much for racing, but i've always been interested in the efficiency of exercise. When i started running barefoot (which is a similar philosophy to the prupose of powercranks) i noticed dramatic improvement in running economy and biomechanis. I'm interested in similar improvements with cycling.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Its actually a really good drill, you should try it. I felt it helps with climbing/pulling leg over the top with ease. Dont knock it until you try it, and its cheaper than powercranks haha.

I'm an amputee cyclist.

 

[titleshot]

I'm an amputee cyclist.

Troll much?

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Troll much?

No, I was being serious.

One legged efforts are for those that have one leg to use. If you are never going to race with one leg, why on earth train that way? The biomechanics don't replicate two legged pedaling, and certainly don't result in any improvement in two-legged pedaling performance.

I certainly don't troll - it would only take a quick click on the blog link in my sig line to see that. I write extensively on the topic of training and racing, especially with power meter, and take my profession - that as a full time cycling coach very seriously.

I can't "pull up" or "scrape mud" or "push over the top" of the pedal stroke because as an amputee cyclist I use a cycling prosthetic and these things are not possible (well not on my left side). All I can do is push down. Fortunately for sustainable aerobic power it's the downstroke that matters.

Since having a below knee amputation three years ago as a result of a cycling training accident, I have managed to return to cycling competitively and replicate or better my pre-amputation power output.

What I have lost a lot of is sprint power, with 5-sec power down around 200-250 watts.

 

[TopCarbon]

Troll much?

what a ****

 

[BroDeal]

 

[titleshot]

So why post in a thread that is for the purpose of asking about powercranks/a device that is all about teaching you to pull over the top?

Sorry to hear about your accident, thats awesome that you can ride.


p.s. Im sorry Tapeworm that you lost your sense of feeling/touch?

 

[Tapeworm]

p.s. Im sorry Tapeworm that you lost your sense of feeling/touch?

Yes, that's why I use a power meter, so I don't have to rely on feeling. I KNOW if I'm going better or not.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

So why post in a thread that is for the purpose of asking about powercranks/a device that is all about teaching you to pull over the top?

Firstly the OP asked about information on Powercranks. There was no stipulation that those responding needed to have used them.

Powercranks claim using their product results in an average increase of 40% in sustainable power output (it's right there on their website).

That claim is a load of rubbish and doesn't require one to use them to know it (if it were true - then I would win the next Tour de France simply by riding Powercranks - even if I attained a below average improvement).

Indeed all the evidence demonstrates no performance improvement at all as a result of using such cranks. Of course the manufacturer disputes all the study findings (as you'd expect when they show your product to be ineffectual).

It's the same tactic employed by supplement makers - they seek to seed doubt that you are "missing out" on something that might well make you faster than simply training hard and smart (e.g. you can't always believe the "science") - besides - if you "only" get a 10% improvement - that's worth it right? Wrong - because it's bunkum.

And like supplement makers their claims are chock full of anecdotes (and often celebrity endorsement) and pseudo-science - which anyone should know is a red flag - not to mention data presented as evidence that was later shown to be faked.

One should examine the evidence. When you do that, then you draw the startling conclusion that Powercranks are great at making you ride better with Powercranks.

But that doesn't really matter. What matters is whether they improve actual performance, and I'm afraid their claims simply don't stack up.

Let's say I started selling "Poweroranges" that my clients report result in a 40% average improvement in power just by including them in your diet - would you buy them (even though those pesky science studies are equivocal)? Remember that Cadel Evans, Andy Schleck and Fabian Cancellara eat my Poweroranges so they must be good.

Sorry to hear about your accident, thats awesome that you can ride.

Thanks.

I didn't mean to entrap anyone, I just thought being asked to try one legged pedaling was funny.

 

[titleshot]

Let's say I started selling "Poweroranges" that my clients report result in a 40% average improvement in power just by including them in your diet - would you buy them (even though those pesky science studies are equivocal)? Remember that Cadel Evans, Andy Schleck and Fabian Cancellara eat my Poweroranges so they must be good.

Do you know where I can get these poweroranges?

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Do you know where I can get these poweroranges?

They're currently in beta testing. Watch this space.

 

[Inner Peace]

Back on topic, and forgetting about Frank's claims of increased power, i'll give you my reasoning for seeking information:

I suffered a very bad injury, and as a result (even after 12 months) one of my legs is A LOT smaller than the other (in terms of muscle mass and strength)... The more I ride, the better the big leg gets, whilst the weak one stays the same.. This has lead to significantly painful tendon strains in my weaker leg and to the point that it has dramatically reduced my riding time

For me, one legged drills yield little result. Reason is, because one legged drills make you better at one legged drills.. Similar argument to Alex's reason for not getting powercranks.

The reason i'm interest in independent cranks is that they are only possible to ride with an even distribution power from BOTH legs SIMULTANEOUSLY... one legged drills don't do that. in fact, no other training method does that if the cranks are not independent

As a result, surely one would be more balanced. More balanced muscles = less injury prone = able to ride harder, faster, longer = able to train at a pre-injury level. Can anyone disagree with that 4-way logic train??

So regardless of the claims of the manufacturer, can anyone argue (logically) why learning to ride independent cranks would NOT help someone in my situation?