Primož Roglič

[sniper]

props for that tienus, great finds.
Make that awesome finds.

and again, there's the photographic evidence.
primoz' wheel was glowing.
other wheels apparently weren't.

 

[Tienus]

Looks like Lotto-Jumbo only made the call after the internet was starting to make fun of Tom Leezer cutting of corners.
http://www.omroepwest.nl/nieuws/3090560/Vijfde-plaats-van-wielrenner-Tom-Leezer-in-Tirreno-Adriatico-klopt-niet

Love the #fairplay in the tweet.

 

[maltiv]

Re:

In the Lotto race report there is mention of a crash (Battaglin) and three flat tires (Roosen, Teunissen, Van Asbroeck). No mention of Roglic which does not mean he did not have one but I'm sure they would have loved to use that excuse to.
http://www.teamlottojumbo.nl/wielrennen/valpartij-en-lekke-banden-tekenen-strade-bianchi-voor-team-lottonljumbo

Both Strade Bianchi and the Giro are organised by RCS sport. So is Tirreno-Adriatico which had an interesting incident during the time trial. Tom Leezer from Lotto-Jumbo managed to get the fifth fastest time out of nowhere.
You can see the result here at 1:21:44
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDgdcMgxmXY
Lotto-Jumbo called the organisation to tell them they did not time him correctly and 50 seconds was added to his time. This could have been a test run.
http://www.wielerupdate.nl/wielernieuws/35226/lottonl-jumbo-trekt-aan-bel-na-te-goede-uitslag-leezer/
In the article Roglic is also mentioned as being in good shape but at this stage he is still considered a climber.

Why would they have to do a risky "test run" to find out if motors make you go faster in a time trial? That'd be both reckless and completely unnecessary. One would think they'd rather test it during training...

 

[sniper]

maltiv, don't get hung up on the *how* or *why*.

*how* did Lance beat the tests?
*why* was Lance pre-1999 not a GT contender?
Not knowing the answers to that means little.

 

[GJB123]

Re:

maltiv, don't get hung up on the *how* or *why*.

*how* did Lance beat the tests?
*why* was Lance pre-1999 not a GT contender?
Not knowing the answers to that means little.

This is ridiculous, if you or tienus insits on make all sorts of claims what might have taken place and proceed to argue as if these are facts you must be prepared to be challenged on the how and why. It is not like everybody is supposed to give you a free pass on the facts of the matter. If you ant to speculate, you can, but prepared to be questioned on logical fallacies in your speculation if and when they con to the fore.

Maltiv's questions are reasonable and would be so in any normal discussion (especially if one wants to apply Occam's razor). Otherwise all we are left with is (baseless) speculation on which your are apparently not to be challenged.

 

[sniper]

To answer Maltiv's post:

No, it would not be reckless, nor completely unnecessary.
Rather, it would be a great day at the office for Leezer and his team with plenty of field data to analyze
And they may also have tested it during training.
The two scenarios obviously aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

if you or tienus insits on make all sorts of claims what might have taken place and proceed to argue as if these are facts

no example? shocker.

 

[GJB123]

I am not loosing my cool, but you are not the one deciding whether people should care about the "how" and "why". That is not your place to decide, especially of those how's and why's are used to assess your assumptions and speculations. Don;t like it, deal with it.

And as to examples, how many do you want, because it in virtually every post of yours since I posted the news item from the Dutch paper.

 

[sniper]

I never said the *how* and *why* aren't interesting.
They are. Very.
Just saying not knowing the answer to the *how* or *why* of event xyz doesn't mean event xyz didn't take place.
Lance's doping is just one of a plethora of examples.

 

[GJB123]

No but it does make clear that in certain cases the event is highly unlikely to have taken place.

 

[sniper]

Re:

No but it does make clear that in certain cases the event is highly unlikely to have taken place.

agreed.
but clearly not in this case.

 

[GJB123]

Let's agree to disagree on that one.

 

[sniper]

So you think it's likely that the photographic evidence of Primoz' glowing bike is a fluke, and that the Tirreno Adriatico TT guys just briefly lost their skills to properly clock right when Leezer came on?
I mean, what are the odds.
But yeah, let's just buy into whatever excuse Lotto have in store for us.

Is there even a precedent for what happened to Leezer in TTs in elite cycling races?

 

[GJB123]

If even there weren't a precedent for it, that in itself does not prove anything.

And as to Roglic's glowing bike, I still think that hub motors are unlikely to be used for reasons that were extensively discussed earlier. I would be very interested what other reasons there could be for this supposed anomaly. Also if it is correct that it was not even the team's own rear wheel, and this seems to be the case judging from the images, this makes it even more unlikely to be a hub motor. What are the chances that the neutral car would be distributing hub motors at random to riders stricken with a flat tyre. Also how would they know the exact make up of the motor that Roglic or LottoJumbo requires? Not all batteries are compatible with every motor etc. Also it would involve even more people who are in the loop and in on the conspiracy, because it would require the neutral car to be in the know that they use hub motors and which types (which make en even stronger case for the use of crank motors in the downtube, because that would not require such an elaborate set-up).

The hub by the way is glowing less brightly than Roglic's bum, which we can assume to be around 37 degrees Celsius, so we cannot actually call the hub piping hot.

 

[sniper]

1. We don't know anything about the tire yet, whose tire it really was, etc. A sticker? So what. Maybe removed deliberately.
2. Even if it was a neutral car's spare tire, strictly speaking there is no neutral car. It's only *called* a neutral car.
If Vittoria sponsors both the service car *and* Lotto Jumbo's tyres, that's a conflict of interest. Conflicts of interest are the smoke of prosport. (which still doesn't mean there's fire, of course.)
3. Of course they would not be " distributing hub motors at random to riders stricken with a flat tyre".
4. Everything else is anybody's guess. Like with every program designed to cheat: the fans will be the last to learn the ins and outs.

I agree with your point that potential involvement of Vittoria's service car in this scheme would have the great disdavantage that too many people would be in the know.
Your point wrt the hub temperatue...I honestly don't know. I'm still assuming Stade 2 had good reasons to single out Primoz' wheels. But I might be wrong.

 

[nogav1ca]

I would just like to add oufeh's twit, with the same picture, but a temperature scale, where difference between the hottest and the coldest part of the scale is only 10 degrees.

https://twitter.com/oufeh/status/744633393829257216

 

[sniper]

Re:

I would just like to add oufeh's twit, with the same picture, but a temperature scale, where difference between the hottest and the coldest part of the scale is only 10 degrees.

https://twitter.com/oufeh/status/744633393829257216

what are we supposed to be seeing there?
(unfortunately there is a play button right in front of the hotspot. The play button doesnt work for me. So basically i'm not seeing much.)

 

[nogav1ca]

It's only a picture. Same one as posted before from documentary, but it has a temperature scale on a right side, where you can see the coldest part (dark blue/black) of picture has 9,3 °C and the hottest part (bright yellow/white) of picture has 19,8 °C.

Personally thermal imaging would more or less 100 % proof of motorised bikes if either temperature (difference) would be really high or we would have one long shot where you could see certain part heating up and cooling down.

 

[Oufeh]

Re:

It's only a picture. Same one as posted before from documentary, but it has a temperature scale on a right side, where you can see the coldest part (dark blue/black) of picture has 9,3 °C and the hottest part (bright yellow/white) of picture has 19,8 °C.

Personally thermal imaging would more or less 100 % proof of motorised bikes if either temperature (difference) would be really high or we would have one long shot where you could see certain part heating up and cooling down.

Ha ! Save your energy nogav1ca, if I were you I wouldn't spend too much time arguing with sniper
I agree though, I tweeted images of the documentary because no one had but I don't find it damning for Roglič
The Barfield/Gibbins emails in the documentary before (June 12th IIRC) were more a concern IMHO

 

[sniper]

so how does that work.
his body temperature is gonna be considerably higher than 19.8.

 

[nogav1ca]

It was because GJB compared it with 37 degrees that I decided to post it.

About body temperature. It is internal body temperature that is 37 °C, not the temperature of the skin. Skin acts as a temperature regulating organ, so blood flow through it will differ. In this case, since it was cold, blood flow through the skin was low so the body wouldn't lose heat, therefore skin got colder (blood warms the skin).

This is a reason why you measure your temperature in axilla, ear canal or rectally. Or why in the winter, when you come home from doing some sport or something else, (parts of) your body will be cold.

 

[Tienus]

From those pictures its not very clear. If you watch the video you will see the difference with the other riders.
Starting around 18:30
https://youtu.be/e0s2yo6ws9U?t=18m30s

 

[sniper]

the temperature color of roglic' hub is rather similar to the temperature color of the motorized tube pictured here: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mechanical-doping-used-in-strade-bianche-and-coppi-e-bartali-claims-investigation/

not damning for roglic? lol, i guess.
Here it is again:
http://cycling-today.com/mechanical-doping-suspicions-raised-over-roglics-bike-switch-in-giro/
(3 min. vid at bottom of page)
So a guy with no big results in ITTs
- conveniently flunks the pre-race bikecheck due to mechanical issues which remain wholly unexplained;
- alleges to have had some unexplained and unproven wheel change mid-race;
- despite all these technical/mechanical issues goes on to easily beat Cancellara in a Giro ITT
Add it to the thermal images which are at least dodgy, and the additional Leezer story, and it's damning alright.

 

[sniper]

Re:

From those pictures its not very clear. If you watch the video you will see the difference with the other riders.
Starting around 18:30
https://youtu.be/e0s2yo6ws9U?t=18m30s

thanks. hadn't seen this.

yikes.
not much to add to that.

 

[Tienus]

The bike checking is done with a jig, the official one is usually checked by several team mechanics. I'm sure every team has a jig to check their own bikes.

From the official race document: (http://www.steephill.tv/2016/giro-d-italia/08-results.pdf)
The Commissaires Panel will be available by the start area to perform preliminary checks and controls of riders’ equipment (bicycles and their respective accessories and devices, helmets, clothing…) one hour and a half before the first rider’s start.
In the 15 minutes preceding the starts, only the bicycles of riders waiting to take the start might be controlled.
Spare or substitute bicycles shall undergo inspection as well.

The jig showed that Roglic bike was too long. He only asked his mechanic for another bike two minutes before the start. Fourty seconds before the start he had allready found and brought one. One that was good enough to win the stage. He claims the sadle was too low but in this picture it looks fine to me.
http://www.gazzettaworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Roglic.jpg
The bike even has his name written on it.
It is possible he has no bottle because there is something inside the tube under the bottle holder.