Pro Rider reaction to Ricco news

[Barrus]

For goodness sake chill out and stop being so thin-skinned.

This began as a discussion about reactions to Ricco - which moved into the way in which the press and riders have piled into Ricco, Frodo's comments and CN's failure to challenge them, and the silence on Valverde (illegally) training with his team, Saiz on the comeback, and Contador potentially being cleared.

Those same riders and press who couldn't wait to denounce Ricco, on twitter, in interviews and articles, have somehow lost the ability to comment when it comes to those three.

Rider/press reactions to Ricco begats Rider/press silence on Valverde, Dertie and Saiz.

Yet you neglect to make none of these arguments and just post other news stories in this thread

 

[BotanyBay]

If he can find a company willing to put money into the sport, and he doesn't actively encourage doping anymore than any other "accepted" team manager, I say let him in. The sport needs more teams.

If he gets caught up in doping a second time ok throw he out forever. Fact of the matter is that it'd be up to the UCI licensing commission to make the determination as to whether or not his squad would meet the requirements (including ethical ones) - and if they don't think that's the case he won't get in.
.

Joe, I'm surprised to see you say this. That's like saying that so long as they "keep it clean" (and find a sponsor), Fraysee or Eddie B should be managing, organizing or directing teams. These two guys have done MUCH damage to the athletes that have come their way. E

These are the dirty-minded guys that push the attitudes that end up in situations like Riccó's. Even if they're not personally handing-out the dope, they put on that "3•X=success" attitude where the rider needs to go find X out on the internet.

I'm all for giving the riders a second chance. I'm even in favor of seeing you back on the bike. But I think these coaches and directors need to be purged.

Even without well-sponsored teams, we'll always have bike racing. It might be Dave Stoller doing local crits and working at his Dad's used car lot, but we'll still have bike racing.

And the TDF will still be there too. I think too many people have the expectation of possibly earning a living out of riding their bike. As parents, we need to show our kids that fat, drunk and doped-up is no way to go through life.

 

[kurtinsc]

Regardless of whether or not you "like" someone, it doesn't entitle you to call for the legitimization of their sexual brutalization as an appropriate future punishment.

That's a very narrowly defined area of inquiry and it's whether or not it's ok in our society to call for illegal, degrading treatment of someone in response to their unethical and potentially illegal behavior.

Joe... do you even live in the US?

Are you seriously telling me that you haven't heard countless people make similar comments about other facing jail time for various reasons?

I heard people hoping for similar treatment in jail of Exxon executives, Michael Vick, and Martha Stewart. It's one of the most common joke/attack statements in this country when anyone goes to jail.

"Ha, ha... hope he doesn't bend over to pick up the soap."


Look... if people don't like you, they are going to make fun of your misfortune. Trying to claim this makes them worse then the person who actually were caught comitting the crime seems very stupid to me. It reeks of trying to justify actions by claiming those that make fun of you are worse.

The fact is they don't like you. That's what is driving it. Not Omerta, not that they are mentally unbalanced, not that they are evil animals.

THEY DON'T LIKE YOU. And this is how MANY humans in general react to someone they dislike extremely suffering hardship. They point their fingers and laugh. This doesn't make them better or worse then the person they are mocking... it's just general human nature.

You may believe there is a line there... but nothing in our culture suggests that a line is present or obseved. Laughing at people going to jail and how they might get molested sexually isn't uncommon or even viewed as bad in the US. The general view in our country is that you shouldn't have committed a crime and whatever you get while there is deserved... and yes... joked about.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Joe... do you even live in the US?

Are you seriously telling me that you haven't heard countless people make similar comments about other facing jail time for various reasons?

I heard people hoping for similar treatment in jail of Exxon executives, Michael Vick, and Martha Stewart. It's one of the most common joke/attack statements in this country when anyone goes to jail.

"Ha, ha... hope he doesn't bend over to pick up the soap."


Look... if people don't like you, they are going to make fun of your misfortune. Trying to claim this makes them worse then the person who actually were caught comitting the crime seems very stupid to me. It reeks of trying to justify actions by claiming those that make fun of you are worse.

The fact is they don't like you. That's what is driving it. Not Omerta, not that they are mentally unbalanced, not that they are evil animals.

THEY DON'T LIKE YOU. And this is how MANY humans in general react to someone they dislike extremely suffering hardship. They point their fingers and laugh. This doesn't make them better or worse then the person they are mocking... it's just general human nature.

You may believe there is a line there... but nothing in our culture suggests that a line is present or obseved. Laughing at people going to jail and how they might get molested sexually isn't uncommon or even viewed as bad in the US. The general view in our country is that you shouldn't have committed a crime and whatever you get while there is deserved... and yes... joked about.

There is a big difference however depending on where you make that statement. Shouting it at your TV when the news is on, or blurting it out to the group gathered around the coffee machine is not the same as saying it to a reporter with a video camera running.

 

[Francois the Postman]

Joe... do you even live in the US?[snip]

It doesn't matter where you or I or Joe lives, nor does it matter if it is "something people say in the US".

It ain't right.

And the moment a poster feels it is ok for him to suggest here that sexual molestation is appropriate, that poster will face the consequences of having said it in a place where it is not condoned. We have been over this ground often enough too now. Please move on.

 

[kurtinsc]

There is a big difference however depending on where you make that statement. Shouting it at your TV when the news is on, or blurting it out to the group gathered around the coffee machine is not the same as saying it to a reporter with a video camera running.

I never claimed Cavendish was particularly smart. He's not the first cyclist to have problems keeping his mouth shut or performing the infamous "speak for 10 minutes but say nothing" that many sports celebrities learn.

The hatred for Ricco seems VERY significant. There was no pause with this story... it was instant piling on.

That IS indicative of situations where a hated associate gets his just deserts. I keep coming back to the hated person who got fired from my office... and how it was announced by the first person who found out.

He came over and sang "Ding, ****, the witch is dead."

Not stupid enough to say it on Twitter, Facebook, or with a camera rolling. But it feels like the peloton is expressing many of the same emotions regarding Ricco. While I feel bad for him in a way due to that... I don't think the others are evil people for doing so... or even being hypocritical. It just seems like a public display of what goes on a bit more privately in any workplace when a hated person has bad things happen to them.

 

[kurtinsc]

Wow... d0ng is censored? Really?

 

[BotanyBay]

Wow... d0ng is censored? Really?

Heh heh, he said "d*ng".

 

[Chuffy]

Heh heh, he said "d*ng".

So tempted to post a pic of Beavis and Butthead....

 

[BotanyBay]

So tempted to post a pic of Beavis and Butthead....

Oh you have no idea

how much I resisted the urge.

 

[Barrus]

Oh you have no idea

how much I resisted the urge.

Go ahead Botany, this time it is too perfect to miss it, but please edit it into your he said d*ng post

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Any chance of the 80s goth love-in coming to an end soon?

You think Depeche Mode are goth?

Right, okay.

 

[Wallace]

I might have missed it, but have any of Sassi's other riders said anything about the Ricco positive? You'd think Basso and Evans would weigh in with some sort of comment about Ricco's betrayal of their trainer's principles. Unless Ricco as an insider has some information that someone about to be banned from the sport for life has no reason to keep secret anymore...

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

You think Depeche Mode are goth?

Right, okay.

All the 14 year-old girls at High School who liked DM sure seemed to like wearing black an awful lot... I know, not quite like Siouxie etc, but close enough for a serious non-fan.

What's the official category for whiney black-clad bands with a homo-erotic bent?

 

[Benotti69]

I might have missed it, but have any of Sassi's other riders said anything about the Ricco positive? You'd think Basso and Evans would weigh in with some sort of comment about Ricco's betrayal of their trainer's principles. Unless Ricco as an insider has some information that someone about to be banned from the sport for life has no reason to keep secret anymore...

hard to say. basso is Italian and his sister is hardly an Angel. Evans is possibly the one who would comment about dishonouring Sassi? ACF might have an opinion on it.

 

[BotanyBay]

All the 14 year-old girls at High School who liked DM sure seemed to like wearing black an awful lot... I know, not quite like Siouxie etc, but close enough for a serious non-fan.

What's the official category for whiney black-clad bands with a homo-erotic bent?

They're called so many different things, and the names change with each generation.

And they all have different musical tastes.

 

[Anonymous]

I might have missed it, but have any of Sassi's other riders said anything about the Ricco positive? You'd think Basso and Evans would weigh in with some sort of comment about Ricco's betrayal of their trainer's principles. Unless Ricco as an insider has some information that someone about to be banned from the sport for life has no reason to keep secret anymore...

or maybe they're showing a bit of class and waiting until he is out of the hospital and/or are loathe to be outright hypocrites like most trashing Ricco?

 

[flicker]

or maybe they're showing a bit of class and waiting until he is out of the hospital and/or are loathe to be outright hypocrites like most trashing Ricco?

Any pros who trash Ricco are protecting their jobs. Not a bad tactic in this economy. Ricco showed and has shown a really vile tendency during his career to advocate doping. It is not a question of a questionable individual criticizing a down and outer.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Any pros who trash Ricco are protecting their jobs. Not a bad tactic in this economy. Ricco showed and has shown a really vile tendency during his career to advocate doping. It is not a question of a questionable individual criticizing a down and outer.

Oh Flick you're back.
The highlighted bit is true. It is more a pack of questionable individuals criticizing a down and outer.

 

[Elagabalus]

I never claimed Cavendish was particularly smart. He's not the first cyclist to have problems keeping his mouth shut or performing the infamous "speak for 10 minutes but say nothing" that many sports celebrities learn.

The hatred for Ricco seems VERY significant. There was no pause with this story... it was instant piling on.

That IS indicative of situations where a hated associate gets his just deserts. I keep coming back to the hated person who got fired from my office... and how it was announced by the first person who found out.

He came over and sang "Ding, ****, the witch is dead."

Not stupid enough to say it on Twitter, Facebook, or with a camera rolling. But it feels like the peloton is expressing many of the same emotions regarding Ricco. While I feel bad for him in a way due to that... I don't think the others are evil people for doing so... or even being hypocritical. It just seems like a public display of what goes on a bit more privately in any workplace when a hated person has bad things happen to them.

Interesting. It might also be because of his clumsy attempt at blood doping. The articles I've read seem to imply that he withdrew his own blood and left in his fridge for 25 days and then re-infused it. Had it been sent to some lab in the meantime or was he trying to practice old school blood-doping? Don't you need access to sophisticated lab equipment to "pack" the red-blood cells for a big performance gain? Was this something he had read about and was trying on his own?

 

[runninboy]

I never claimed Cavendish was particularly smart. He's not the first cyclist to have problems keeping his mouth shut or performing the infamous "speak for 10 minutes but say nothing" that many sports celebrities learn.

The hatred for Ricco seems VERY significant. There was no pause with this story... it was instant piling on.

That IS indicative of situations where a hated associate gets his just deserts. I keep coming back to the hated person who got fired from my office... and how it was announced by the first person who found out.

He came over and sang "Ding, ****, the witch is dead."

Not stupid enough to say it on Twitter, Facebook, or with a camera rolling. But it feels like the peloton is expressing many of the same emotions regarding Ricco. While I feel bad for him in a way due to that... I don't think the others are evil people for doing so... or even being hypocritical. It just seems like a public display of what goes on a bit more privately in any workplace when a hated person has bad things happen to them.

If the hated person was in the hospital i find that in very poor taste , and despicable behaviour . if they were not it is hardly an applicable analogy to the situation at hand.

 

[runninboy]

...

THEY DON'T LIKE YOU. And this is how MANY humans in general react to someone they dislike extremely suffering hardship. They point their fingers and laugh. This doesn't make them better or worse then the person they are mocking... it's just general human nature.

.

Some of us would disagree. I am never shocked but always disapointed to see people try to justify bad behaviour as "normal" It isn't.
You can live your life on a animalistic level or you can use your brain to make conscious decisions as to what is appropriate behaviour in society.
Should we go back to when people bred at age 13 to propigate the species because they died at 30? That is human instinct. Puberty remember?
The conquerors got to rape & pillage the spoils of war survival of the strongest conquer the weak. But we have a different society today.
You want to indulge your basis instincts thats fine you can slow down and oggle people who have spilled their blood in car accidents too because that is just human nature. But alot of people i know try to rise above such things
but you want to keep humanity at its lowest levels by making excuses for bad behaviour.

 

[joe_papp]

Joe, I'm surprised to see you say this. That's like saying that so long as they "keep it clean" (and find a sponsor), Fraysee or Eddie B should be managing, organizing or directing teams. These two guys have done MUCH damage to the athletes that have come their way. E

These are the dirty-minded guys that push the attitudes that end up in situations like Riccó's. Even if they're not personally handing-out the dope, they put on that "3•X=success" attitude where the rider needs to go find X out on the internet.

I'm all for giving the riders a second chance. I'm even in favor of seeing you back on the bike. But I think these coaches and directors need to be purged.

Even without well-sponsored teams, we'll always have bike racing. It might be Dave Stoller doing local crits and working at his Dad's used car lot, but we'll still have bike racing.

And the TDF will still be there too. I think too many people have the expectation of possibly earning a living out of riding their bike. As parents, we need to show our kids that fat, drunk and doped-up is no way to go through life.

I'm just saying that I'm not going to advocate a double-standard when there isn't one written into the rules. So as long as they're free to come back according to the rules, I think that the positive economic activity from the creation of new teams is to be preferred over some sanctimonious posturing about not wanting the money of someone who might be able to create a new professional team and do so within the sporting and anti-doping regulations.

You can just say people aren't welcome in sport when they haven't broken some rule or regulation. Otherwise 1/2 of the management of 1/3 of the ProTour (or something like that) should be banned. But I don't hear you calling for Riis to be ousted and to take his money with him. Nor for Vino to be sent packing at the end of the season if he retires and assumes a managerial or directorial role at Astana. What about Jim Ochowicz? After all, he's alleged to have known about Armstrong's alleged doping on Motorola.

I accept that people object to other people. But when there's no actual violation or suspension or sanction, the only thing for certain that comes out of denying some and welcoming other is a double-standard.

Call it politically incorrect speech if you like, but I don't think you should be able to keep people out of the sport who are capable of raising the money for teams AND satisfying the licensing committee's criteria.

 

[Willy_Voet]

All the 14 year-old girls at High School who liked DM sure seemed to like wearing black an awful lot... I know, not quite like Siouxie etc, but close enough for a serious non-fan.

What's the official category for whiney black-clad bands with a homo-erotic bent?

Emo?

To fill in 10 characters...Bauhaus = Goth

 

[runninboy]

It seems to me that most of us were taught not to kick a man when he's down. To do otherwise and take pleasure in other peoples suffering imo is sadistic.Not human nature.
When i was running in college there was a team that was pretty good who had a real jerk for a coach. The team was filled with a bunch of jerks as well. They were the type win or lose they would just do stupid crap. I remember winning one race turning to shake their hands and they told me"ESAD!"
excuse me? Okkkkk.
At times they would resort to less than ideal behaviour. pushing guys off course and other forms of cheating was pretty normal. To say they were not well liked is an understatement. As we made our way through the season it was pretty obvious they peaked too early and by the championship meet they had nothing left. Although favoured they lost badly, at the finish chute where the coach normally meets you and hands you your warmups there was a big pile of their warmup bags and a large rope formed into a noose. The coach had emptied out the team bus and left the stadium. The jerk had left the noose as a message as to what he thought of his team a bunch of chokers.
When i got there it was stunned silence as runner after runner showed up after working so hard to see that his coach had abandoned him and humiliated him in front of everyone.
Not one of the rest of us took that moment to pile on, we felt bad for those guys. I don't think there was a man there who didn't shake their hands and tell them they didnt deserve to be treated that way and we all congratulated them for putting forth a great effort. It was not a happy moment for anyone our hearts really went out to these guys i can't explain it. We gave them rides home . i remember one of my teammates said' we might be competitors but we are not enemies, we are a family. One big dysfunctional family. Its true. when you suffer side by side with someone in competition you understand what it takes to get there. You empathize with them, you might not like them but you would never take joy from their suffering.